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EMR Class 360's

Aictos

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I left luton the same time as a 360 the other day in a 700 (FLU),off the line the 360 was quicker (I only 60% power applied) but at about 60mph we started to overtake the 360 again.

Not had one above 104mph north out of bedford, but had line speed heading south.
Even though the Class 360 might be faster from a standing start eg from Luton, I found the Class 700s to quickly overtake them and if the Class 700 didn't have to slow for the next station stop I believe the Class 700 would easily have got to London ahead of the Class 360.

Btw is it true that the Class 360s only have one toilet per unit eg the accessible toilet?
 
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Btw is it true that the Class 360s only have one toilet per unit eg the accessible toilet?

Yes, so one per four carriages. Same as the 321s they used to run on the same routes as.

I don't know how many toilets there are on a 12-car 700 set, but I gather there was some miscommunication when the new Kettering Depot Sidings were built which let to the tanks for emptying and refilling the toilets being put in the position for a class 700. So a couple of weeks before the start of operation they had to be taken up and put in the correct positions.
 

Aictos

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Yes, so one per four carriages. Same as the 321s they used to run on the same routes as.

I don't know how many toilets there are on a 12-car 700 set, but I gather there was some miscommunication when the new Kettering Depot Sidings were built which let to the tanks for emptying and refilling the toilets being put in the position for a class 700. So a couple of weeks before the start of operation they had to be taken up and put in the correct positions.
That's strange, I could have sworn the Class 321s had two standard toilets like the Class 317s but obviously I was wrong, I had to ask as I was told that the Class 360s had 1 toilet and I thought they were joking!

As to the Class 700s depending on the sub class, the 700/1s have 5 toilets and the 700/0s have 3 toilets but more to the point why did the contractors put the infrastructure in at Kettering for the Class 700s when they're hardly going to be using the sidings?

*Class 700/1 being a 12 car or a FLU (Full Length Unit)
**Class 700/0 being a 8 car or a RLU (Reduced Length Unit)

As to Kettering Sidings, how many Class 360s are berthed or stabled overnight there and is there any work done to them such as cleaning, tanking etc? I know they will be berthed at Bedford but just wondered where else they will spend the night.
 

Kite159

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Yes, so one per four carriages. Same as the 321s they used to run on the same routes as.

I don't know how many toilets there are on a 12-car 700 set, but I gather there was some miscommunication when the new Kettering Depot Sidings were built which let to the tanks for emptying and refilling the toilets being put in the position for a class 700. So a couple of weeks before the start of operation they had to be taken up and put in the correct positions.

321s have 2 toilets, even the refurbished units have 2 toilets, one accessible in a driving coach and the original "cupboard" in the trailer coach (with the other toilet removed)
 

Aictos

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321s have 2 toilets, even the refurbished units have 2 toilets, one accessible in a driving coach and the original "cupboard" in the trailer coach (with the other toilet removed)
Ahh thank you for clarifying, I'm not a regular user to the GEML so didn't know.

Once the first Class 360 has been fully refurbished, will they pick up the the speed and turn them out a week at a time or will they proceed at the same speed as Southern eg glacier speed?
 

Railperf

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Even though the Class 360 might be faster from a standing start eg from Luton, I found the Class 700s to quickly overtake them and if the Class 700 didn't have to slow for the next station stop I believe the Class 700 would easily have got to London ahead of the Class 360.

Btw is it true that the Class 360s only have one toilet per unit eg the accessible toilet?
my fastest class 700 acceleration measured from Luton on the down is quicker than the equivalent class 360.
A lot of it depends on how much initial power the driver selects and for how long before applying full power.
But the bare figures suggest the class 700 is quicker throughout the speed range from a standing start.
 
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Class360/1

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From a passenger point of view, they were a big improvement over the 321's. I used them daily from their introduction for several years. At the time they were probably one of the fastest accelerating EMU's in the country.
Aircon was the biggest improvement (despite being quite noisy) plus a PRM loo. These units were a lot quieter at speed in terms of interior noise, and had a good comfy ride.
Maybe the 'ironing board' style seats in standard was one of the few disappointments. Not everyone enjoyed the warbling sound under acceleration.

Not being a driver, i can't comment on that side of things except to say that those drivers I am in contact with appreciated the superior acceleration and braking of the units compared to the 321's - which was useful when making up time lost due to delays and incidents. They were also one of the most reliable fleets in the country.

Initially, there was talk about them being used on an express Liverpool Street to Ipswich service with only 1 or 2 stops in something like 64 minutes. But they soon started to be integrated alongside the 321's on everyday Ipswich, Clacton, Harwich diagrams.

As a result the 360's performance was never truly exploited as the timetable required some uniformity and needed to be timed for the slowest traction - 321's.
But get on a train delayed by around 5 to 10 mins early on its journey, and these units would literally fly, often making up most if not all of any delay!

Towards the end of their life on GA, the interiors were starting to look very tired and in need of a refurb/refresh. Drivers reported to me that some of the dampers were becoming worn - resulting in a slightly livelier ride and lots more creaks and rattles. It's been suggested this may have been due to a rundown in maintenance as the fleet was being replaced - and Modern Railways MTIN figures reported a reduction in reliability.

The Class 321'R' Renatus conversion was designed to bring those 321's to Class 360 performance levels, as well as the PRM mods and aircon, but I don't know any driver that would take a 321R or standard 321 over a 360. Probably very few would take a 321R over the standard 321's.

As a passenger i would always 'groan' if a 321 turned up instead of the booked or 'hoped for' 360.
From a performance perspective the new 720's are taking over the baton, but again not stretched performance wise by the 321 derived timetable.
They are cleaner/ quieter and more spacious, the aircon is quieter. And drivers are waxing lyrical about the cab environment and performance.
I do miss the 360's but the 720's have raised the bar - even if their fleet reliability is still very low compared to the 360's.
I agree. 321’s are also a nightmare to take bikes on and the the 720’s are much better for accessibility.
 

43055

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It appears the yellow on the front should be more of a 'curved' design (little like the TPE 185s) rather than the rectangle that is currently on the two purple units. Matt Dawson has been working on a model version of the 360 and has shown what the front should look like in a video.


Here's a little update on the 360 with some inside info you might not know @C_G_Wright
 
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fgwrich

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It appears the yellow on the front should be more of a 'curved' design (little like the TPE 185s) rather than the rectangle that is currently on the two purple units. Matt Dawson has been working on a model version of the 360 and has shown what the front should look like in a video.

Matt Dawson on Twitter: "Here's a little update on the 360 with some inside info you might not know @C_G_Wright @LisaAngus13 https://t.co/Y3fwQLqMXA" / Twitter
A little like the TPE 185s or 360205 then (the HEX liveried 360) then, which rather suits the slab endedness of the 360s rather well.
 

43096

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It appears the yellow on the front should be more of a 'curved' design (little like the TPE 185s) rather than the rectangle that is currently on the two purple units. Matt Dawson has been working on a model version of the 360 and has shown what the front should look like in a video.

Matt Dawson on Twitter: "Here's a little update on the 360 with some inside info you might not know @C_G_Wright @LisaAngus13 https://t.co/Y3fwQLqMXA" / Twitter
Perhaps someone has looked at the original Class 185 front end yellow application and how that worked with a front end design similar to the 360s? From that clip it certainly looks an improvement, which will help to disguise the weak front end design of the 360s - which is by far the worst part of their design. It's saying something that the gangwayed version on the 350s and 450s is more attractive!
 

43102EMR

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It appears the yellow on the front should be more of a 'curved' design (little like the TPE 185s) rather than the rectangle that is currently on the two purple units. Matt Dawson has been working on a model version of the 360 and has shown what the front should look like in a video.

I guess we won’t know for sure until it leaves Eastleigh - the artwork also suggests first class is being reinstated.
 

D_MTrains

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Not yet, I would imagine that 121 is being used as a sort of teaching unit to the guys at Eastleigh as a way of preparing them on what is going to be done with the rest of them and how to complete the refurbish, I cannot presume that all 21 are going to take upwards of 2 months to complete.
 

Aictos

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Not yet, I would imagine that 121 is being used as a sort of teaching unit to the guys at Eastleigh as a way of preparing them on what is going to be done with the rest of them and how to complete the refurbish, I cannot presume that all 21 are going to take upwards of 2 months to complete.
Well judging by how slow Southern are at Selhurst, I wouldn't be surprised if it did take 2 months per unit regardless of the obvious fact that Southern has a much bigger fleet.
 

swt_passenger

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Not yet, I would imagine that 121 is being used as a sort of teaching unit to the guys at Eastleigh as a way of preparing them on what is going to be done with the rest of them and how to complete the refurbish, I cannot presume that all 21 are going to take upwards of 2 months to complete.
The first couple of 450 and 444 given interior mods at Eastleigh took ages. I wonder if production run quantities of parts aren’t even ordered until they know exactly what is needed following survey of the first units?

But eventually the last few 450s only took a few days. (But that contract didn’t include exterior painting.)
 

43096

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The first couple of 450 and 444 given interior mods at Eastleigh took ages. I wonder if production run quantities of parts aren’t even ordered until they know exactly what is needed following survey of the first units?

But eventually the last few 450s only took a few days. (But that contract didn’t include exterior painting.)
It's more to do with the staff doing the work getting familiar with the trains and the scope of work. Like any task, once you've done it 2 or 3 times it becomes much easier and quicker.
 

SolomonSouth

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my fastest class 700 acceleration measured from Luton on the down is quicker than the equivalent class 360.
A lot of it depends on how much initial power the driver selects and for how long before applying full power.
But the bare figures suggest the class 700 is quicker throughout the speed range from a standing start.
Are you sure? The Class 360 produces a rate of 0.98m/s/s whereas the very similar 717 produces 0.85 m/s/s meaning the 700 cannot match the 360, at least up to about 40mph.
 

The_Train

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Have all of the 360s conducted revenue earning passenger workings of some sort now?
 

swt_passenger

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It's more to do with the staff doing the work getting familiar with the trains and the scope of work. Like any task, once you've done it 2 or 3 times it becomes much easier and quicker.
Which is what I meant. But you also cannot assume that the people who did previous contracts are involved again. AIUI Arlington‘s main role is just to move the units around the site. No-one seems to know who’s actually got the 360 contract, I don’t think it’s been posted here.
 

Railperf

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Are you sure? The Class 360 produces a rate of 0.98m/s/s whereas the very similar 717 produces 0.85 m/s/s meaning the 700 cannot match the 360, at least up to about 40mph.
Class 717s are not in use on the Midland mainline. But Class 700 are and without doubt accelerate slightly quicker than 360s regardless of any claimed acceleration rates.
 

edwin_m

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Based on Wikipedia figures (yes I know) the 717 has 5.88kW per tonne and the 700 (12-car figures used) has 12.19kW per tonne, so you'd expect the acceleration of the two classes to be very different. They are based on a common design but it's easy enough for a manufacturer to vary the number of motors and associated equipment in different classes, depending on the performance needed for a particular duty.
 

Railperf

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Based on Wikipedia figures (yes I know) the 717 has 5.88kW per tonne and the 700 (12-car figures used) has 12.19kW per tonne, so you'd expect the acceleration of the two classes to be very different. They are based on a common design but it's easy enough for a manufacturer to vary the number of motors and associated equipment in different classes, depending on the performance needed for a particular duty.
Strangely the best recorded acceleration figures i have seen are very similar for both 717 and 700 from a standing start, but it appears that the 717s starts tailing off after 60mph - which is not an issue as they are limited to 75mph on the ECML slow lines. The 90mph top speed would never be used unless they are diverted onto the fast lines - which i have never experienced to date.
 

edwin_m

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Strangely the best recorded acceleration figures i have seen are very similar for both 717 and 700 from a standing start, but it appears that the 717s starts tailing off after 60mph - which is not an issue as they are limited to 75mph on the ECML slow lines. The 90mph top speed would never be used unless they are diverted onto the fast lines - which i have never experienced to date.
Without having time to go back to check right now, or dragging the discussion further off-topic, possibly the proportion of weight on motored axles (which mostly determines low-speed acceleration) is similar but the motors themselves are less powerful on the 717?
 

Mag_seven

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A reminder that the topic of this thread is EMR class 360s. If anybody wants to discuss anything else they are welcome to start a new thread.

Thanks. :)
 

SolomonSouth

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Class 717s are not in use on the Midland mainline. But Class 700 are and without doubt accelerate slightly quicker than 360s regardless of any claimed acceleration rates.
OK well, I guess the 360 produces 0.98 across a very small speed range, whereas the 700 probably produces its slightly lower max acceleration across a larger speed range to make up for it. It is known though that 700s leave 360s (and 350s) for dead above 60mph.
 

Railperf

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I wouldn't describe the 700 as leaving a 360 for dead. It is slightly faster but only by a few seconds from a standing start to 2 or 3 miles. That's all. Put a 2+8 HST beside, or an older generation electric such as Class 317, 319, 321 etc, and then you see how the newer electrics leave those for dead.
 

westcoaster

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I wouldn't describe the 700 as leaving a 360 for dead. It is slightly faster but only by a few seconds from a standing start to 2 or 3 miles. That's all. Put a 2+8 HST beside, or an older generation electric such as Class 317, 319, 321 etc, and then you see how the newer electrics leave those for dead.
Also depends on a companies driving policy. For example EMR might allow 100% power application but GTR does not.
 

Aictos

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With the refurbishment of the interiors, are they also going to give the cabs a refurbishment too?
 

Railperf

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Also depends on a companies driving policy. For example EMR might allow 100% power application but GTR does not.
True. What is GTR's driving policy regarding power application from a standing start? Does it differ from a platform compared to a signal stop? I know drivers tend to delay full power until they are sure no one is going to try and run up to the train.
 

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