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Progress of delivery of cascaded/refurbished/PRM modified stock to TFW/Wales and Borders

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Meerkat

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The only problem with the 175s is needing up to 8/9 units based in Canton with the maintenance still needing to be done in Chester.
There wouldn’t be room for them to stay at Chester once all the 197s have moved in would there?
 
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PHILIPE

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The latest updated plan is for the Mark 4s that TFW are obtaining will displace 197s between Swansea and Manchester which, in turn, will replace the 170s intended for West Wales. This will enable the lease of the 170s to EMR. TFW will purchase 8 single 153s (PRM) to work the Heart of Wales Line vice 170s but not clear if these will be 8 of the current PRM Porterbrook ones currently with TFW or whether from elsewhere. There is no mention of the future of the 175s.


This information was published in the Railway Gazette in the middle of June.
 

berneyarms

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That could work. No doubt the 170s are in higher demand elsewhere than the 175s. The Flirts are currently being tested but I'm not sure if they are tri-modes for the Rhymney or Bi-modes for maesteg/Ebbw which will arrive first and when they will be in service.

The only problem with the 175s is needing up to 8/9 units based in Canton with the maintenance still needing to be done in Chester. That would mean over 16/17 units being based in the south out of a fleet of just 27. Its also reliant on 197 deliveries, as the Flirts could well be in service by the time a sufficient number of 197s are delivered to release 175.
If I was TfW I would be holding ok to the 170s until the Flirts arrive and using spare 175s to cover Crewe-Chester and West wales to free up some 150s and 153s.

I can also see the 175s staying slightly longer than everyone thinks.
That's no different from the Class 150 and Class 153 in North Wales that have to rotate to Canton for maintenance currently though.
It's perfectly feasible.

The latest updated plan is for the Mark 4s that TFW are obtaining will displace 197s between Swansea and Manchester which, in turn, will replace the 170s intended for West Wales. This will enable the lease of the 170s to EMR. TFW will purchase 8 single 153s (PRM) to work the Heart of Wales Line vice 170s but not clear if these will be 8 of the current PRM Porterbrook ones currently with TFW or whether from elsewhere. There is no mention of the future of the 175s.


This information was published in the Railway Gazette in the middle of June.
We already know all that.
But we also know that the Mark 4 fleet is not going to start until December 2022 on South Wales to Manchester.

So it could be perfectly feasible for some Class 175s, having being displaced by the Class 197s would allow the Class 170s to start moving to EMR earlier than December 2022.

Again, we shall have to wait and see!
 

PHILIPE

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We already know all that.
But we also know that the Mark 4 fleet is not going to start until December 2022 on South Wales to Manchester.

So it could be perfectly feasible for some Class 175s, having being displaced by the Class 197s would allow the Class 170s to start moving to EMR earlier than December 2022.

Again, we shall have to wait and see!
In view of all the speculation and changes, I thought I would summarise and confirm the plans in one place again. As for the 175s, I think it is pretty obvious they will be available while the 197s and Mark 4s are eased in so a little early at this stage to predict any long term future
 

Caaardiff

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It may well be achievable but can't be compared with the 150s and 153s. There's only 3 150s and 2 153s at or around Chester. Crewe and Holyhead will also do repairs if required.
It's easy to rotate a small amount of the fleet. But when well over 50% of the fleet is based in the south, it leaves potential risk to the maintenance of the units.
Canton no longer maintain 175s unless they have to, and that's only to get it in a serviceable condition to get it back to Chester for proper repairs. So it's not just heavy maintenance that needs to be considered.

Personally I think any 175s kept during the transition to 197s will be firstly used on Crewe Chester, to strengthen other services on the Marches or North Wales Coast or used as backup for 197 issues.
 
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PHILIPE

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It may well be achievable but can't be compared with the 150s and 153s. There's only 3 150s and 2 153s at or around Chester. Crewe and Holyhead will also do repairs if required.
It's easy to rotate a small amount of the fleet. But when well over 50% of the fleet is based in the south, it leaves potential risk to the maintenance of the units.
Canton no longer maintain 175s unless they have to, and that's only to get it in a serviceable condition to get it back to Chester for proper repairs. So it's not just heavy maintenance that needs to be considered.

Personally I think any 175s kept during the transition to 197s will be firstly used on Crewe Chester, to strengthen other services on the Marches or North Wales Coast or used as backup for 197 issues.

It's not like that all the 197s and the Mark 4s will suddenly drop out of the sky and start to work everything one Monday morning. There will still be 175s working on the Marches for a while yet with the opportunity to visit Chester. It would be a gradual process.
 

wobman

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That could work. No doubt the 170s are in higher demand elsewhere than the 175s. The Flirts are currently being tested but I'm not sure if they are tri-modes for the Rhymney or Bi-modes for maesteg/Ebbw which will arrive first and when they will be in service.

The only problem with the 175s is needing up to 8/9 units based in Canton with the maintenance still needing to be done in Chester. That would mean over 16/17 units being based in the south out of a fleet of just 27. Its also reliant on 197 deliveries, as the Flirts could well be in service by the time a sufficient number of 197s are delivered to release 175.
If I was TfW I would be holding ok to the 170s until the Flirts arrive and using spare 175s to cover Crewe-Chester and West wales to free up some 150s and 153s.

I can also see the 175s staying slightly longer than everyone thinks.
There's many very optimistic timescales regarding new fleet introductions, I get heavily criticised usually for being sceptical about many plans put out about the new stock.
I'm hoping TFW see Sence and retain the 175's much longer than planned, they are nice comfortable sets. So much better than them awful 153's.
 

anthony263

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That could work. No doubt the 170s are in higher demand elsewhere than the 175s. The Flirts are currently being tested but I'm not sure if they are tri-modes for the Rhymney or Bi-modes for maesteg/Ebbw which will arrive first and when they will be in service.

The only problem with the 175s is needing up to 8/9 units based in Canton with the maintenance still needing to be done in Chester. That would mean over 16/17 units being based in the south out of a fleet of just 27. Its also reliant on 197 deliveries, as the Flirts could well be in service by the time a sufficient number of 197s are delivered to release 175.
If I was TfW I would be holding ok to the 170s until the Flirts arrive and using spare 175s to cover Crewe-Chester and West wales to free up some 150s and 153s.

I can also see the 175s staying slightly longer than everyone thinks.
The tfw flirts shown are the class 231s fir maesteg , ebbw vale and Cheltenham services
 

berneyarms

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It may well be achievable but can't be compared with the 150s and 153s. There's only 3 150s and 2 153s at or around Chester. Crewe and Holyhead will also do repairs if required.
It's easy to rotate a small amount of the fleet. But when well over 50% of the fleet is based in the south, it leaves potential risk to the maintenance of the units.
Canton no longer maintain 175s unless they have to, and that's only to get it in a serviceable condition to get it back to Chester for proper repairs. So it's not just heavy maintenance that needs to be considered.

Personally I think any 175s kept during the transition to 197s will be firstly used on Crewe Chester, to strengthen other services on the Marches or North Wales Coast or used as backup for 197 issues.
I'm not suggesting all at once - I was merely suggesting that they could allow some of the Class 170s to start moving to EMR as Class 197 sets displace the Class 175s on other duties.

It's not like that all the 197s and the Mark 4s will suddenly drop out of the sky and start to work everything one Monday morning. There will still be 175s working on the Marches for a while yet with the opportunity to visit Chester. It would be a gradual process.
Precisely.
 

craigybagel

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To be honest, I'm not entirely sure any of the current plans are set in stone. The interview in railway gazette predated the plans to get a bike 153 on trial from Scotrail, which may change things.

With regards to the maintenance of Sprinters, their time spent in the North is rarely an issue. Arriva Train Care at Crewe can do pretty much everything Canton can do. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out in the future the 153s really are only used on the Heart of Wales (and possibly Crewe - Shrewsbury locals that interwork) that they become allocated to Canton only on paper, and in effect become Crewe based instead for regular maintenance.

I think everyone would rather the 175s stayed instead of the 153s of course, but we'll have to wait and see. I think there are more twists and turns in this story yet.
 

Meerkat

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Or the Welsh government uses the issues to move more work into Wales. Who is maintaining the 197s - could it be done next to the factory?
 

PHILIPE

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Or the Welsh government uses the issues to move more work into Wales. Who is maintaining the 197s - could it be done next to the factory?

The ERTMS ones will be maintained at Machynlleth and the others at Chester. They will initially be used on routes near to Chester. but I don't know if there will be any plans in the future for anything further in the south.
 

wobman

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The ERTMS ones will be maintained at Machynlleth and the others at Chester. They will initially be used on routes near to Chester. but I don't know if there will be any plans in the future for anything further in the south.
The first route for the 197's is Chester to Liverpool, that's meant to be October but let's say plans change a lot at TFW. So that may be at a later date than plan A.

They are testing along the N Wales coast for now, phase 2 of testing is Chester to Liverpool but as yet that hasn't began its still ROG drivers with CAF techs only on the units on the N Wales coast.

The 197's will be visiting the south regularly, some will have to be having light maintenance at canton and other depots. That's due to Chester not being able to accommodate the 50 plus units at Chester.

They are looking at units even being stabled at Llandudno junction overnight, for tanking and cleaning.

I will no doubt be criticised by some posters, but that information has come from good sources.
 

wobman

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Or the Welsh government uses the issues to move more work into Wales. Who is maintaining the 197s - could it be done next to the factory?
Well the 197's will have light maintenance around the network, plus stabling at various depots. But heavy maintenance is just Chester and Mach. They are planning to be CAF facilities.

Let's say the TFW plans are ever changing, which is a good thing as they are realistic now about rolling stock.

Chester can't keep more that 25 overnight at Chester unless there's an expansion of the depot, there's no plans of any expansion at Chester or Mach that TFW have posted.
 
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wobman

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To be honest, I'm not entirely sure any of the current plans are set in stone. The interview in railway gazette predated the plans to get a bike 153 on trial from Scotrail, which may change things.

With regards to the maintenance of Sprinters, their time spent in the North is rarely an issue. Arriva Train Care at Crewe can do pretty much everything Canton can do. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out in the future the 153s really are only used on the Heart of Wales (and possibly Crewe - Shrewsbury locals that interwork) that they become allocated to Canton only on paper, and in effect become Crewe based instead for regular maintenance.

I think everyone would rather the 175s stayed instead of the 153s of course, but we'll have to wait and see. I think there are more twists and turns in this story yet.
It's very true what you have said, I've heard the 175's are staying later than initially planned. We all know all rolling stock projects are running late, some far later than others.

I'm glad that TFW are being more realistic with their rolling stock projects, there's so many parts to get right and these dates can all change again.
 

Meerkat

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The ERTMS ones will be maintained at Machynlleth and the others at Chester. They will initially be used on routes near to Chester. but I don't know if there will be any plans in the future for anything further in the south.
Maintained by who? Chester is currently leased by Alstom to maintain the 175s isn’t it? Are TfW TUPEing in the staff to work on 197s?
 

wobman

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Maintained by who? Chester is currently leased by Alstom to maintain the 175s isn’t it? Are TfW TUPEing in the staff to work on 197s?
The Chester depot is changing from Alstom to CAF, the staff will be TUPEd across, no timescales for this as yet.
 

PHILIPE

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animationmilo

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175111 is due out on Friday after refurbishment. That leaves 5 units to do, so hopefully all done by the end of the year/early Jan.
Do we know which one out of 106, 110, 112, 114 or 107 will be going in next for refurbishment. Guessing 107 will be last
 

sd0733

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Do we know which one out of 106, 110, 112, 114 or 107 will be going in next for refurbishment. Guessing 107 will be last
Unless theres a set swap today the only one thatll be at Chester this evening to go would be 175107

On the 153 front it was 153922 which ran to Landore today not 935.
 
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153 909 has been refurbished with new livery and PRM Lite. It went back to Canton yesterday from Landore.

153 922 is now at Landore for its refurb programme.
 

Bikeman78

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There's fleets with much 'worse' examples than that. Yes, it can be a pain, particularly if the fleet in question isn't very reliable. But it's absolutely manageable.
The 175s are by far the most reliable Welsh fleet. If I recall correctly they do around 12,000 miles per failure with the second best being in the 7000s.
 

berneyarms

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153 909 has been refurbished with new livery and PRM Lite. It went back to Canton yesterday from Landore.

153 922 is now at Landore for its refurb programme.
Thanks for the update! Much appreciated.

The only 3 unrefurbished ones not allocated are 150245/250/255 so looks to be at least one of them.
Any further guidance as to which of these is being worked on currently?

Also does it still look like 175 107 that is heading for Widnes tonight?
 
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craigybagel

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The 175s are by far the most reliable Welsh fleet. If I recall correctly they do around 12,000 miles per failure with the second best being in the 7000s.
Indeed - the whole "175s are unreliable" thing is very out of date these days. They aren't perfect - but they're nowhere near as bad as they used to be, and they're a long way from being the worst fleet out there.
 

animationmilo

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The only 3 unrefurbished ones not allocated are 150245/250/255 so looks to be at least one of them.

There is a 5T35 to Landore and 5T09 return today, presumably 153935 heading for refurb and 153909 heading back.
150245 is the current refurb in
Half of it is visible from the main line into Cardiff
 
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