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Working timetable abbreviations

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Andy873

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I've just got my first working timetable, (BR 1956 WTT of Freight trains - Todmorden and Great Harwood Junction & branch lines) and as explained to me in a previous thread there is an explanation of abbreviations in it, however it doesn't tell me what "V" means?

Example:

Depart 10V40

Can anyone tell me what this V means please.

Thanks,
Andy.
 
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I have some old LMR Freight WTTs, but not the East Lancs lines, and not quite your vintage either.

The ones I do have contain "universal" letter and symbol codes appearing between the hours & minutes, which are listed on the front pages of the timetable.

These include things like:-
c - arrives 2 minutes earlier
L - stops to change locomotive or enginemen
PB - stops to pin down or pick up wagon brakes
Q - runs when required
t - stops only for tablet, staff or token purposes
* - stops or shunts for other trains ahead or to pass
But there is never a V in these lists

Within the body of the timetables, V does appear here and there - always with an explanation somewhere close by as to what it means.

On a quick scan of WTT I have, V seems to indicate that the time applies at a location close by, but not the same as the location tabulated in the left-hand column.
Almost as if "V" stands for "Variation" (no idea if this is the true origin)

Two examples:-
  • Timetabled row is for Carlisle Yard - train time shown as 02V01 - note in same column says V - Carlisle Station
  • Timetabled row is for Edge Hill Exhibition Jn - train time shown as 08V10 - note in same column says V - Picton Road Jn

Obviously I can't say whether same interpretation applies in your 1956 edition, but I'd suggest looking for an individual explanation of the "V" close by.
 
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Gloster

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Have a good search up and down the relevant column, and also adjacent ones, and in the heading of the column. Alternatively, could it be Vans (although that is unlikely).
 

The Planner

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I've just got my first working timetable, (BR 1956 WTT of Freight trains - Todmorden and Great Harwood Junction & branch lines) and as explained to me in a previous thread there is an explanation of abbreviations in it, however it doesn't tell me what "V" means?

Example:

Depart 10V40

Can anyone tell me what this V means please.

Thanks,
Andy.
Could be advertised arrival time 1 minute later, though that is lower case.
 

341o2

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The reference I have found to "V" in a WTT of 1975 vintage refers to the destination indication, "V" indicates that the train is inter regional and will proceed to the Western Region
 

Gloster

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The reference I have found to "V" in a WTT of 1975 vintage refers to the destination indication, "V" indicates that the train is inter regional and will proceed to the Western Region
The four character headcodes (1V23, 6A78, etc.) were not introduced until the early 1960s. They would also have been shown at the top of the column, not in the arrival or departure times.
 
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Is / Was there a loop line at the location. Certainly in a lot of places (May just be a Southern Region thing) a capital V would indicate a loop line, although this should be shown with the list of line codes on the first page, for instance at London Bridge - UPV was used for Up Passenger Loop, at Grove Park - 10V40 would be depart from the Bromley North Loop platform (aka platform 1) at 10:40

Paul
 

30907

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Is / Was there a loop line at the location. Certainly in a lot of places (May just be a Southern Region thing) a capital V would indicate a loop line, although this should be shown with the list of line codes on the first page, for instance at London Bridge - UPV was used for Up Passenger Loop, at Grove Park - 10V40 would be depart from the Bromley North Loop platform (aka platform 1) at 10:40

Paul
I think that is a more recent usage.

Andy, can you give us some context? Class of train, station/s concerned, other times in column...

I think Springs Branch is probably nearest but I'd expect there to be an explanation in or next to the column.
 

6Gman

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How many times does V appear? If it was just once or twice could it be an error for W - stops for water?
 

Andy873

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How many times does V appear? If it was just once or twice could it be an error for W - stops for water?

Sorry for the late reply!

V appears at least twice, and only one of these stations had water there.

The two classes of train involved are class K & class H.

Please see attached (Great Harwood 8V35 & Simonstone 10V40).

Another point to note is after the entry Simonstone 10V40, the next one at Padiham 10 48 is in lighter print - no idea what that means either?

If anyone would like a copy of the WTT please message me (I have sent a copy to timetable world.com and it will be uploaded onto that site later this month).

Thanks,
Andy.
 

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The explanation of the V note is in the time column for the relevant train e.g. 'Moss Street' , 'Arr 1020'. The lighter time indicates a passing time i.e. not stopping.
 

TheEdge

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I know a small v in modern parlance there would mean the advertised time is one minute later than the WTT. I don't know how helpful that is.
 

Andy873

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The explanation of the V note is in the time column for the relevant train e.g. 'Moss Street' , 'Arr 1020'. The lighter time indicates a passing time i.e. not stopping.
Thanks everyone.

It seems the V actually stands for something like "see further details" or "extra information" in this case.

Andy.
 

jfollows

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Andy,
You're looking at things that are new to you, but very familiar to a number of us, so please don't hesitate to continue to ask questions as you have been doing - but I'll say that if you'd post a picture of what you're asking about (as you did in the end) it's immensely helpful, your question from yesterday would have been answered immediately if you had. In due course you'll become more familiar as we are, but until then I know a number of us will be happy to help you.
 

Andy873

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Andy,
You're looking at things that are new to you, but very familiar to a number of us, so please don't hesitate to continue to ask questions as you have been doing - but I'll say that if you'd post a picture of what you're asking about (as you did in the end) it's immensely helpful, your question from yesterday would have been answered immediately if you had. In due course you'll become more familiar as we are, but until then I know a number of us will be happy to help you.
Much appreciated, and I should have realised about posting pictures - thank you!

I am actually puzzled over a few things, but if I could continue with my next question:

There is a class K train (7 56 am from Blackburn), it goes down the Great Harwood loop line and at 9 0 arrives at Padiham - but after that I can't seems to trace it on-wards or returning back in the other direction.

I know (on the loop branch line) only Great Harwood had water facilities.

If you could scroll back a little please, I attached the page - F15 (Post # 11).

Andy.
 

jfollows

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There is a class K train (7 56 am from Blackburn), it goes down the Great Harwood loop line and at 9 0 arrives at Padiham - but after that I can't seems to trace it on-wards or returning back in the other direction.

I know (on the loop branch line) only Great Harwood had water facilities.
The train you refer to doesn't go onwards, it only runs as far as Padiham where it arrives at 9 am and terminates. If it were continuing elsewhere it would say so at the top of the column.

So, as far as the timetable entry for this specific train goes, that's that.

The timetable doesn't go into details of stock workings at locations, so what happens to this train next is not specified in the working timetable. Obviously at some point the stock will form another train, but which one that isn't determined in the timetable you have. It could be the 11am empties to Habergham Colliery on the next page, but then again it could be something else.

EDIT I don't know the area or the history, but given your previous posting (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lifting-the-great-harwood-loop-line.144236/) would it not be reasonable for the train you're referring to to be one supplying coal to the power station at Padiham, then the 11am empties back to a colliery would be a sensible next working? However I'm not familiar with things like "class K" designations here or why the train you refer to starts from Blackburn if it's carrying coal.
 
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Andy873

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The train you refer to doesn't go onwards, it only runs as far as Padiham where it arrives at 9 am and terminates. If it were continuing elsewhere it would say so at the top of the column.

So, as far as the timetable entry for this specific train goes, that's that.

The timetable doesn't go into details of stock workings at locations, so what happens to this train next is not specified in the working timetable. Obviously at some point the stock will form another train, but which one that isn't determined in the timetable you have. It could be the 11am empties to Habergham Colliery on the next page, but then again it could be something else.
Thanks, you've answered many questions there for me in one go!

It could well have been taking coal to the power station - good theory.
There was a daily class K train (Mineral "coal" train) from Rose Grove which arrived 7 31 am at Padiham, and Rose Grove stored coal from the near by Hapton valley colliery - a big supplier of coal the Padiham power station.

One more thing to ask if I may, I can't see any trains using this line as a detour, in other words a through train? should these be listed?

The only other thing I can spot on the WTT is, there are on some columns numbers like 15 & 85 near the top - train numbers or maybe route numbers?

You can see examples of this again on attachment F15 - post # 11.

Andy.
 
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jfollows

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On page F16, third column, you have a train going from Great Harwood Junction to Rose Grove West via Padiham, is that the sort of through train you're looking for? It's a light engine from Darwen and runs only on Mondays. It's scheduled to pass Padiham at 9:37am.

The working timetable should show all through trains over the loop which fit its category - so freight trains only if that's the type of working timetable, for example. As previously mentioned, light typeface for times are passing times, heavy typeface is used for arrival and departure times.

There's another through train on F15, column 16, again light engine Mondays only from Blackburn to Rose Grove West this time. Passes Padiham at 7:49am.

I don't know what the numbers "32", "85" and "57" mean, sorry.
 

Andy873

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On page F16, third column, you have a train going from Great Harwood Junction to Rose Grove West via Padiham, is that the sort of through train you're looking for? It's a light engine from Darwen and runs only on Mondays. It's scheduled to pass Padiham at 9:37am.

The working timetable should show all through trains over the loop which fit its category - so freight trains only if that's the type of working timetable, for example. As previously mentioned, light typeface for times are passing times, heavy typeface is used for arrival and departure times.

There's another through train on F15, column 16, again light engine Mondays only from Blackburn to Rose Grove West this time. Passes Padiham at 7:49am.

I don't know what the numbers "32", "85" and "57" mean, sorry.
Thanks again, I think you need a rest from me!

The WTT does confirm what everyone has been telling me about the line sadly.

Clearly it was being run down for various reasons as were many more.

So many thanks for all the replies!
Andy.
 

30907

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Thanks again, I think you need a rest from me!

The WTT does confirm what everyone has been telling me about the line sadly.

Clearly it was being run down for various reasons as were many more.
Sadly, I think it shows there was very little ordinary freight traffic.
Looking forward to seeing the complete WTT online eventually.
 

Andy873

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Sadly, I think it shows there was very little ordinary freight traffic.
Looking forward to seeing the complete WTT online eventually.
If you want to message me with your email address I can send it to you, otherwise timetable world.com will publish it later this month - just ask if you would like an advanced copy!

Andy.
 

6Gman

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I note that two of the three "mystery numbers" in the headings are Class E trains (i.e. faster part-braked services) so I wonder if they were identification numbers for key services?

Pre the 4-character 7P21, 6K20, 8L08 etc some regions used 2, 3 or 4 figure identification numbers for services. Perhaps this was a local version of that, but only applied to certain services?
 

Andy873

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Not sure about the column numbers yet, but something else that confuses me (which is not too hard!):

On the attached F10 page, in the very first column it shows a time of 7 2 pm - Fridays only at Padiham and 7 18 at Rose Grove junction.

Directly above the entry of 7 2, it says "After working 3 45 from Mirfield".
Does this mean the 7 2 at Padiham came from there?

Also confusing is the heading of this column "L E to Lostock Hall Shed", is this refering to the 6||58 departing Rose Grove junction? The index states || means a light engine.

The column has the letter G for Light engine which is also stated in the index.

Basically, what is this column telling me please?
Thanks,
Andy.
 

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RT4038

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7 2 at Padiham is a passing time of the light engine that departed Rose Grove West Junction at 6 58. This engine had previously worked the 3.45am from Mirfield (to, or as far as, Rose Grove), as per the note, so was returning to Lostock Hall MPD as per the heading. The light engine ran Fridays only, and is marked 'Suspended' , so not actually operating at that time.
 

Andy873

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7 2 at Padiham is a passing time of the light engine that departed Rose Grove West Junction at 6 58. This engine had previously worked the 3.45am from Mirfield (to, or as far as, Rose Grove), as per the note, so was returning to Lostock Hall MPD as per the heading. The light engine ran Fridays only, and is marked 'Suspended' , so not actually operating at that time.
Thanks,

There's certainly more to read on these WTT's than the passenger ones.

Andy.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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All the "V" situations in the WTT scans are for arrival times in a row otherwise denoted as departure times.
Each has a note to that effect in the relevant column, but V might not always denote that anomaly.
It's just a way of saving column inches in the printed WTT.
More recently the railway adopted "a" between the hhmm departure times to denote the same thing (and "d" in an arrival row for the reverse).
 

Gloster

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LE was widely used to indicate a Light Engines or Engines coupled together and also Engine(s) with up to two Brake Vans attached. They were of Class G in the classification of trains which ran from A to K (except for I) in the order of importance.
 
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