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Crewe - Warrington Bank Quay/Wigan/Preston

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Alex1971

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I agree, plus a lot of services from Bank Quay & Warrington Central to Liverpool/Manchester are essentially stoppers, is there more revenue generated on a train stopping at Chassen Road on a Warrington - Manchester service as there would be if a train stopped at Hartford on a Crewe - Warrington service?
 
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30907

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Wow, thanks for all the comments and history regarding services and past timetables that stopped in mid-Cheshire. I started the post out of curiosity and also for selfish reasons, the curiosity is that I am a Crewe born lad whose family originate from mid-Cheshire, I can remember my Dad telling me about when he grew up in Winsford in the 40’s & 50’s how busy Winsford station once was and how he regularly visited relatives in Fleetwood, so I presume he must of at least been able to get to Preston.
https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer?token=66d160cc-d943-40f6-be38-842d1602845c
Table 51 shows that in 1958 Hartford was served by a handful of WCML semi-fasts each way, and Winsford had a 12.5pm north to Blackpool (and a 9.10am Lancaster-Crewe for Dad to come back on!)
 

King Lazy

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Just my opinion but I always thought that as London NorthWestern run the ‘2nd tier’ on the Southern WCML and TPE the ‘2nd tier’ on the Northern a TPE Crewe/Birmingham to Carlisle/Scotland service -might-be a useful idea.

Either picking up stops between Crewe and Preston as per this discussion or linking a number of big cities (Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow) as there are no Cross Country trains on the west side of the country anymore while XC runs meandering routes connecting the likes of Plymouth, Bristol, Birmingham, Newcastle and Edinburgh.

I know it isn’t remotely feasible/likely in the current era and probably wouldn’t actually make much sense.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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TPE have run Manchester-Scotland via Crewe at times when there were line blocks at Ordsall Lane.
I think LM's Birmingham-Preston plans morphed into a second Liverpool service.
The same thing seems to have happened to Avanti's plans with their new class 807 fleet - a second London-Liverpool will run instead of a London-Preston relief to the fast Glasgow (or they could have alternated).
 

Bletchleyite

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The same thing seems to have happened to Avanti's plans with their new class 807 fleet - a second London-Liverpool will run instead of a London-Preston relief to the fast Glasgow (or they could have alternated).

The 807s were only ever intended for a second Liverpool, they are 7 car specifically for serving South Parkway.
 

CAF397

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TPE have run Manchester-Scotland via Crewe at times when there were line blocks at Ordsall Lane.
I think LM's Birmingham-Preston plans morphed into a second Liverpool service.
The same thing seems to have happened to Avanti's plans with their new class 807 fleet - a second London-Liverpool will run instead of a London-Preston relief to the fast Glasgow (or they could have alternated).
TPE only ever ran ECS Preston - Ardwick via Crewe & vv to the best of my knowledge. The drivers were route conducted, and no guards were conducted.
 

stephen rp

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I used to love these units with their "proper" compartments for first class with corridor to the toilet. But not every carriage had toilet access (?) so must have been a bit of an ordeal up to Carlisle. Think I did one of these from Wolverhampton to Liverpool c 1982 but what service, (must have stopped at Hartford), I don't recall.
Long seats in first were very useful if you missed the last train from Piccadilly, with an unlocked 304 in platform 11 till 6 am

My first experience of 304s was going for an evening return trip from Mauldeth Road to Piccadilly on first day of operation, and the driver failed to stop....
 
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chorleyjeff

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I have been upgrading my collection of working timetables, so for a number of years from 1973 to 1981 (with the exception of the 1977-1978 timetable which I don't have) the SX service from Hartford to Warrington and beyond was the following, and only in 1980 did it get even vaguely interesting.
None of the (few) services went via Newton-le-Willows.
Clearly there wasn't much demand but the service on offer wasn't going to generate demand either.
Hartford had a few other calls in fast Liverpool services, but not many.
Summer Saturdays saw a couple of additional DMU services to Blackpool North.

7/5/73 to 5/5/74 SX
1P16 09:28 Crewe-Carlisle D280 called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Wester, Preston & onwards
1K17 18:03 Carlisle-Crewe D280 called at ..., Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 20:46

6/5/74 to 4/5/75 SX (first year of electrification)
2P82 09:17 Crewe-Preston/Carnforth EMU called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western & Preston, arrived 10:10, 1/7 to 27/9 departed unadvertised 10:28 to Carnforth arrive 10:51
2K82 15:00 Preston-Crewe EMU called at Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 15:54

5/5/75 to 2/5/76 SX
1P82 09:17 EMU Crewe-Preston called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay & Wigan North Western, arrived Preston 10:10
1K82 15:00 Preston-Crewe EMU called at Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, arrived Crewe 15:54
(1K82 didn't call at Hartford)

3/5/76 to 1/5/77 SX
2P66 09:17 EMU Crewe-Preston called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay & Wigan North Western, arrived Preston 10:13
2K66 14:57 EMU Preston-Crewe EMU called at Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 15:53

2/5/77 to 7/5/78 SX
I don't have this timetable, so I don't know

8/5/78 to 13/5/79 SX
no services

14/5/79 to 11/5/80 SX
no services

12/5/80 to 10/5/81 SX
1P16 06:28 Birmingham-Lancaster E280 called at Crewe 07:35, Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western & Preston, arrived Lancaster 08:47 (stock formed 2P92 09:20 Lancaster-Barrow-in-Furness D280, LD from Preston after working 1S45 07:53 Manchester Victoria-Glasgow Central as far as Preston)
1P63 16:05 Crewe to Barrow-in-Furness E280 to Preston called at Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston 16:55-17:05, Lancaster, Carnforth & onwards
1K34 12:50 Preston-Crewe E280 called at Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 13:41
1K32 14:10 Barrow-in-Furness-Crewe E280 from Preston called at stops to Carnforth, Lancaster, Preston 15:37-15:50, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Hartford, arrived Crewe 16:40

EDIT I have a feeling that I might have travelled on 1K34 or 1K32 once, because I remember calling at Hartford on something which wasn't the stopping Liverpool-Crewe EMU service (and I only used that the once), and I remember having a nice AC-hauled journey from Preston to Crewe one afternoon, maybe in the summer before going to university? The dates would work.
Just to add a historical note. On a journey from Haslemere to Preston in the late 1960s we shot up the WCML at high speed then at Crewe a Britannia steam loco took over for a very lethargic leg to Preston and it called at Hartford. So Hartford in the late 1960s had a direct train from London.
 

47827

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Just to add a historical note. On a journey from Haslemere to Preston in the late 1960s we shot up the WCML at high speed then at Crewe a Britannia steam loco took over for a very lethargic leg to Preston and it called at Hartford. So Hartford in the late 1960s had a direct train from London.

On the topic of London links, as recently as the late 90s I recall an autumn Liverpool to Euston on Sundays at least one year which was dragged by a diesel to Crewe with stops at Warrington then Hartford but the Crewe stop not being for passenger use. Next official stop was Milton Keynes. All bar the infamous Gordon Jones (who wrote a book) used to still release the doors at Crewe though I think. I can't recall many/other London trains calling there around that period.
 

frodshamfella

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First off, hope I am posting this in the correct forum. I have often wondered why there is not say a Northern Service between Crewe - Preston, or even just to Warrington Bank Quay or Wigan North Western. The reason I have always wondered why there isn’t is because is you live near and use Acton Bridge, Hartford & Winford stations and want head north, nothing ever stops at these stations. To get to Warrington Bank Quay from Acton Bridge (distance 7m) you would have to catch a train down to Crewe to come back north to Warrington, same for Hartford & Winford. Now I guess it all comes down to cost etc, and you can get to Liverpool from the 3 mentioned stations, and with Hartford you are not far from Northwich Greenbank to get to Manchester, buts surely a local stopping service from Crewe to either Warrington/Wigan/Preston would connect mid-Cheshire with the WCML?
I use Acton Bridge, its my closest station. what you have stated is a problem for me as I'm planning a trip to Edinburgh. I will probably end up driving in to Warrington BQ and parking the car there, which does add significant time and cost to the trip.
 

childwallblues

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One answerwould be to extend the Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service (about to be re-instated) to Crewe stopping at Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford.
 

stephen rp

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One answerwould be to extend the Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service (about to be re-instated) to Crewe stopping at Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford.
I don't think it's about to be reinstated.

Looking at the 68/69 timetable, it is quite odd what served Acton Bridge.

DOWN
0654 Crewe to Preston (all stations, via Earlestown).
0815 Acton Bridge to Preston (via Earlestown) - connect out of 0750 Crewe-Liverpool)
0915 Summer only SX Crewe to Blackpool (stop only Acton Bridge, Warrington, Wigan).
0925 Summer Saturdays Birmingham - Blackpool (all stations Crewe-Preston except Leyland)
That's it northbound

UP
0540 Preston-Crewe (all stations via Earlestown except Balshaw Lane)
0645 Preston-Acton Bridge (all stations via Earlestown; arrivd 0741; presumably formed 0815 back)
And that's it southbound! The summer Saturdays Blackpool back to Brum (1433 from Blackpool North, didn't call at Acton Bridge, or Winsford.)

From the June 1960 Bradshaws:

DOWN
6 am Crewe-Morecambe (all stations via Earlestown)
8.22 am to Warrington - second class only portion detached off 0743 Crewe to Liverpool!
12.12 pm Crewe - Blackpool Central called Saturdays only
5.15 pm Crewe-Warrington (it looks like a portion off the 5.15 pm Crewe-Liverpool... - 5.24 pm from Crewe on Saturdays, to follow the 1.30 pm SO Euston to Blackpool Central - but no Warrington portion on Saturdays)

UP
5.30 am Preston-Crewe (via Earlestown but didn't stop at Golborne or Newton-le-W)
6.10 am Carlisle-Crewe (all stations except Garstang but not via Earlestown - arrive Crewe 11.31 am)
5.20 pm Warrington-Crewe
 
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30907

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One answerwould be to extend the Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service (about to be re-instated) to Crewe stopping at Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford.
As I commented upthread (#2), the demand from those stations to Warrington and all stations beyond would be unlikely to sustain a service.
 

Alex1971

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Sorry Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay is in Northerns timetable for De

One answerwould be to extend the Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service (about to be re-instated) to Crewe stopping at Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford.

I agree to that idea, I know people say there is not much in the way of passenger numbers at Acton Bridge, Hartford & Winsford, but when you add Hartford (Northwich & Viilages) and Winsford (throw in Middlewich with no station at all) then you are talking about an area of 50000+ people who have to go back on themselves to Crewe if they want to go north to Warrington and the rest of the WCML. Surely those numbers are worthy of 1 train an hour to Bank Quay?
 
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CW2

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I use Acton Bridge, its my closest station. what you have stated is a problem for me as I'm planning a trip to Edinburgh. I will probably end up driving in to Warrington BQ and parking the car there, which does add significant time and cost to the trip.
The problem is that you are part of a small elite group of people who actually use Acton Bridge station (and then, only occasionally).
It's a fine place for trainspotting, but the customer base is negligible. There is no real need to increase the service there at all, and every incentive not to.
 

childwallblues

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I agree to that idea, I know people say there is not much in the way of passenger numbers at Acton Bridge, Hartford & Winsford, but when you add Hartford (Northwich & Viilages) and Winsford (throw in Middlewich with no station at all) then you are talking about an area of 50000+ people who have to go back on themselves to Crewe if they want to go north to Warrington and the rest of the WCML. Surely those numbers are worthy of 1 train an hour to Bank Quay?
What nobody actually knows is how many people drive from the three stations into Warrington for work or even leisue or sport. Traffic is bad south of the Mersey.
 

Alex1971

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What nobody actually knows is how many people drive from the three stations into Warrington for work or even leisue or sport. Traffic is bad south of the Mersey.

I live just south of the Mersey where it passes through Warrington, the traffic passing through Stockton Heath which is about 2 miles from Bank Quay is ridiculous and a real bottle neck. A lot of that traffic is coming/going to the Northwich/Winsford areas. It’s a crazy situation in my opinion that those mid-Cheshire stations cannot at least get as far a Bank Quay going north, it would make a world of difference.
 

Gareth

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Would such a service mean taking the stations out of the Liverpool-Birmingham services? I can see Hartford, perhaps, retaining 2tph with the Warrington service replacing one of the Liverpool-Birmingham stops. The other two, less so. Winsford currently only has an hourly service off-peak and Acton Bridge is less than that. Would Warrington be more popular from these stations than Liverpool?
 

childwallblues

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Would such a service mean taking the stations out of the Liverpool-Birmingham services? I can see Hartford, perhaps, retaining 2tph with the Warrington service replacing one of the Liverpool-Birmingham stops. The other two, less so. Winsford currently only has an hourly service off-peak and Acton Bridge is less than that. Would Warrington be more popular from these stations than Liverpool?
I do not think that Warrington eould be more popular than Liverpool which has a bigger range of shops and leisure facilities.
 

Iskra

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Wouldn’t a better option be to extend one of the Euston stopper EMU’s to Preston, calling at the above stations.

Thus you would provide a usable local service and also restore direct (but slow) London trains in one fell swoop as well as improving regional journey opportunities.
 

HSP 2

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Wouldn’t a better option be to extend one of the Euston stopper EMU’s to Preston, calling at the above stations.

Thus you would provide a usable local service and also restore direct (but slow) London trains in one fell swoop as well as improving regional journey opportunities.
The other way that it could be done would be to use one of the Blackpool Manchester services, running it about 5 minutes behind a fast service that is last stop Warrington. With the slow calling at all stations south of Wigan and terminating at Crewe, with the return doing the same.
 

frodshamfella

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The problem is that you are part of a small elite group of people who actually use Acton Bridge station (and then, only occasionally).
It's a fine place for trainspotting, but the customer base is negligible. There is no real need to increase the service there at all, and every incentive not to.

Trainspotting can be a problem at Acton Bridge for " us " passengers because the car park was reduced and is now tiny and so its full very quickly. Its a rural station so by definition its not going to be super busy, but lack of parking doesn't help as it puts passengers off.

What nobody actually knows is how many people drive from the three stations into Warrington for work or even leisue or sport. Traffic is bad south of the Mersey.

Its horrendous driving into Warrington for a train, in peak hours you easily need to add an hour in from my neck of the woods. I have tried Frodsham to Warrington BQ to change, but being that that service is hourly it depends if it connects well.
 
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47827

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Recall there being periods of me sometimes using the early morning commuter services between Crewe and Liverpool that served Acton Bridge up until 2004 then more occasionally after that (less so the evening peak stuff though) and the station's existence was generally more than justifiable for that traffic (often 2 or 3 useful morning peak trains northbound). Most of the commuters were people going to Lime Street, presumably office workers by their dress code, but there would be a dozen to two dozen often waiting to board. Services calling there outside peaks tended to be much sporadically used but I noticed a small improvement when the number of stops increased outside the peaks again. Shoppers and leisure travellers would have refrained from taking advantage between the peaks when there were only 2 or 3 useful services in each direction (naturally) with gaps of 4 to 6 hours in some timetables I can recall plus very early finish times for the service (although it once jumped from early evening to a final southbound several hours later at 23xx). Theatre goers, evening shoppers etc would have also been put off by the years when the last northbound service to call at Acton Bridge was at 16xx (also no use for anyone travelling from Crewe/Birmingham direction who then had to change at Runcorn to reach their station).

The last time I recall everything slow for Liverpool stopping at Acton Bridge was about 1994 before it became part of the Birmingham circuit when the gaps were anything between 60 to 90 minutes and 2 class 304 EMU's generally still covered the service with occasional DMU's and loco hauled substitute periods. A clock face hourly service was impossible as the extra calls at Allerton, West Allerton, Mossley Hill and Edge Hill (plus a few at Ditton on weekdays) meant journey times could be nearly a full hour. There were periods where some of the Cardiff trains served local stations in/out of Liverpool too but don't recall if Acton Bridge was one, although I know it do get an early morning Shrewsbury or Cardiff train stopping for a while later into the 90s.

I think if it was possible to run the experiment (which capacity and resource currently doesn't really allow) I still think there's a chance demand would build to Warrington and beyond from smaller stations gaining a through link. BUT initially it may be a waste of time as it could take a while to change people's travel habits. There's no doubt employees will choose where to live or which jobs to pursue based on rail links though so such a link may be viable medium to long term if that side was workable. For now it's simply not easily possible so I think it'll remain in discussion groups like this or inside the interests of rail campaign groups connected to those areas.
 

sonic2009

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Wouldn’t a better option be to extend one of the Euston stopper EMU’s to Preston, calling at the above stations.

Thus you would provide a usable local service and also restore direct (but slow) London trains in one fell swoop as well as improving regional journey opportunities.

I'm sure that currently the Euston arrival at Crewe arrives just before the Liverpool service by LNWR.
 

Alex1971

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I'm sure that currently the Euston arrival at Crewe arrives just before the Liverpool service by LNWR.

I get the 19:09 Edinburgh train from Crewe to Bank Quay on a Saturday after I have watched Crewe Alex and the Liverpool bound train does get in a few minutes earlier, both on platform 11. So when I move from Warrington to Northwich later this year my match day and drinking will not be messed up, though I won’t be able to head north up the WCML without making more visits to Crewe!
 

185143

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I get the 19:09 Edinburgh train from Crewe to Bank Quay on a Saturday after I have watched Crewe Alex and the Liverpool bound train does get in a few minutes earlier, both on platform 11. So when I move from Warrington to Northwich later this year my match day and drinking will not be messed up, though I won’t be able to head north up the WCML without making more visits to Crewe!
Sounds like an excuse to visit the (admittedly rather pricey) Crewe Hero inbetween trains to me!
 
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