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Stations rebranded to Great British Railways design / Rail Alphabet 2

HarryL

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On lines like the S&C which have a particular character and identity, it's a shame they couldn't use a more traditional design (such as how some councils paint lamp posts black in more historic areas of towns) but also maybe have name of the line or region on the sign too?

EG:
RIBBLEHEAD
Settle - Carlisle Line​
The Friends of the Settle–Carlisle Line could put up extra signage in classic styles if they wish to, I'm sure nobody would stop them. But in terms of the actual main ones, the point is rather to achieve consistency and accessibility, so different designs and extra information stuck in would rather defeat the point.

Putting classic style signage on one line opens a whole rabbit hole of where do you stop doing it. Lots of lines/stations are considered period, do you give them all unique signage to match that character and defeat the point or do you give them all the consistent design and any character can come from the surroundings instead?
 
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dorsetdesiro

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The branding documents by Network Rail seem to show that they are each supposed to carry a red double arrow to the left of the text.

If GBR comes with a blue-red-white Union flag theme then the red & blue lines could go at the top or bottom leaving the BR red arrow logo to the left of the station name in the middle?

Coloured region specific lines, instead of red and/or blue, may be decided by GBR similar to the time Western had brown, Southern had green etc
 

johntea

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They have been changed on the Harrogate line - although not at Harrogate itself yet (wonder what will happen to the sub 'Home of Harrogate College' signs underneath the actual station signs)
 

dorsetdesiro

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It's a good idea to bring the whole network under a single umbrella of GBR instead of the plethora of various TOCs but with devolved ScotRail & TFW this would not be "seamless" if the two TOCs refuse to show the BR arrow logo or GBR logo no matter how small or unobtrustive?

I cannot understand why some entities in England are not English-specific such as "National Highways" and GBR itself while Scotland has "Transport Scotland" and ScotRail?

It would make more sense if all English TOCs came under a single brand such as "Rail England" then there would be just 3 major train companies in the UK including separately operated metro services like MR, T&WM, TfL etc and open access operators with all sharing a single ticketing system etc?

GBR wouldn't seem to be too much of an issue if Scotland & Wales weren't devolved.

It is a bit like milk being sold in supermarkets - Scottish with saltire flag, Welsh with dragon flag but British with the Union flag sold only in England!
 

Steddenm

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M&S actually sell English milk:
Global-award-for-plastic-milk-bottle_wrbm_large.jpg
(Image shows a bottle of M&S English Semi Skimmed milk featuring an English flag)

Anyway back on topic... The double arrows logo is iconic to British transport and is known everywhere. I think by keeping the logo on stations is a good thing, but maybe not at the side of the station name on the totem signs. Maybe in small text underneath with the name of time line?
 

Neptune

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It's a good idea to bring the whole network under a single umbrella of GBR instead of the plethora of various TOCs but with devolved ScotRail & TFW this would not be "seamless" if the two TOCs refuse to show the BR arrow logo or GBR logo no matter how small or unobtrustive?

I cannot understand why some entities in England are not English-specific such as "National Highways" and GBR itself while Scotland has "Transport Scotland" and ScotRail?

It would make more sense if all English TOCs came under a single brand such as "Rail England" then there would be just 3 major train companies in the UK including separately operated metro services like MR, T&WM, TfL etc and open access operators with all sharing a single ticketing system etc?

GBR wouldn't seem to be too much of an issue if Scotland & Wales weren't devolved.

It is a bit like milk being sold in supermarkets - Scottish with saltire flag, Welsh with dragon flag but British with the Union flag sold only in England!
But GBR will operate into both Wales & Scotland (actually quite a substantial route mileage in Scotland). I know Scotrail operate into one English station (Carlisle), Caley sleeper and TfW operate into quite a few but these are devolved operations.

I’m so glad they didn’t go down the England or English route personally and actually don’t mind GBR as a name in the least. I just hope they don’t drape everything in Union Flags (probably mainly to appease the current Prime Minister). Red, White and Blue can be done tastefully (something similar to SWT or EMT with red replacing orange would do).
 

XAM2175

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I cannot understand why some entities in England are not English-specific such as "National Highways" and GBR itself while Scotland has "Transport Scotland" and ScotRail?

It would make more sense if all English TOCs came under a single brand such as "Rail England" then there would be just 3 major train companies in the UK including separately operated metro services like MR, T&WM, TfL etc and open access operators with all sharing a single ticketing system etc?
That is a stylistic and/or political choice in England.
 

urbophile

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Correct, the railways are a public service not an art gallery.
Quite. But art and design aren't some optional esoteric features, as if you could have 'design free' stations. You can have good design, and bad design. The latter could well be trying to do too much, or it could simply be a couldn't care less approach. The most successful form of corporate branding (at least in the transport field, and arguably one of the most successful anywhere) was the Frank Pick era of London Transport and his/its successors. No frills and fancies, no 'look at me, I'm being artistic'. But great care taken with every detail of train, station and publicity design which projects an image of a competent and reliable organisation, instantly recognisable from key elements such as the ubiquitous roundel and the Johnston typeface. I would like to bet that even those people who claim not to care about design, or who wouldn't have a clue which font the signs were in, would at least subconsciously recognise these features and be reassured. That should be what GBR aims for (but the connotations of Union Jacks and general Faragian naffness which the name implies doesn't offer much hope I fear.)
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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It’s all Britain and therefore it should all be GBR. I don’t understand the horrified reaction by some to the idea that Scotland is part of Great Britain, even if it isn’t as big as England.
 

Peter Sarf

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Station platform signs - what are they for ?. They are for INFORMATION. The passenger on the train needs to identify which station the train is arriving at. The passenger knows (or does not care) what line they are on. They just need to know the station name. They need to be able to read it easily so don't clutter signs with "welcome to" "home of" etc. Don't make signs busy with colours. Just make the signs easy to read.
 

Trainfan2019

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Station platform signs - what are they for ?. They are for INFORMATION. The passenger on the train needs to identify which station the train is arriving at. The passenger knows (or does not care) what line they are on. They just need to know the station name. They need to be able to read it easily so don't clutter signs with "welcome to" "home of" etc. Don't make signs busy with colours. Just make the signs easy to read.

Well said. Couldn't agree more.
 

Aictos

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Yes, there is a C in Cannon Street, and Queen Victoria's lapel is the V. Reading has used the shape of the new station (escalators). Fenchurch Street and Gatwick Airport weren't Major Stations at the time when Railtrack originally launched these. You'll find that in recent times, the 'Victoria' station brand is being used for employees working at the station rather than the employer TOC or NR, under a 'one team' approach.
Kings Cross and London Bridge also use the station brand for all employees at those stations however it currently only applies to TOC staff, Network Rail staff or Open Access Operators Staff as the cleaning facilities staff aren't as important...

Do believe it was first rolled out at Kings Cross though a few years ago.
 

LeeLivery

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A good example of bad signage and style over substance is the platform roundels at Cale Rd & Barnsbury. The writing is far too small (surprised the size isn't violating some regulation) as the whole station name needs to fit on one line. If TfL didn't want it on two lines then they shouldn't have bothered with the roundel at all here and just used the 'normal' signs. I've always considered them a waste of money off the Tube, the DLR & Tram don't use them, so I fail to see why LO/TfL Rail needs them.

Having said that, seeing TfL considers signage to be vital to its brand, I struggle to see why GBR shouldn't treat it as the same. I feel like the idea people don't care is being overstated. The most famous platform signage with the public are the BR 1940s totems (they're street art these days), not the BR plain white. There's a reason for this - the plain white signs have no sense of care or identity and are associated with cheapness; the totems are nostalgic. Whether it's shop fronts, road signs, or railway signs plain white looks cheap and ages poorly.

A simple border like EMT did works nicely; plain blue/green like SE/SWT/SN did is also nice; a dash of red with the double arrow would be simple and nice. I'd even argue you could go back to the 1940's totems - as Jose Mourinho said - 'heritage'.
 

Peter Sarf

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A good example of bad signage and style over substance is the platform roundels at Cale Rd & Barnsbury. The writing is far too small (surprised the size isn't violating some regulation) as the whole station name needs to fit on one line. If TfL didn't want it on two lines then they shouldn't have bothered with the roundel at all here and just used the 'normal' signs. I've always considered them a waste of money off the Tube, the DLR & Tram don't use them, so I fail to see why LO/TfL Rail needs them.

Having said that, seeing TfL considers signage to be vital to its brand, I struggle to see why GBR shouldn't treat it as the same. I feel like the idea people don't care is being overstated. The most famous platform signage with the public are the BR 1940s totems (they're street art these days), not the BR plain white. There's a reason for this - the plain white signs have no sense of care or identity and are associated with cheapness; the totems are nostalgic. Whether it's shop fronts, road signs, or railway signs plain white looks cheap and ages poorly.

A simple border like EMT did works nicely; plain blue/green like SE/SWT/SN did is also nice; a dash of red with the double arrow would be simple and nice. I'd even argue you could go back to the 1940's totems - as Jose Mourinho said - 'heritage'.
The rounded edges and simple colour would in my eyes be OK. But the sign colour (background) and text colour must still provide a good contrast. I fear that brings us back to black text on a white background (or vice versa ?). Especially bear in mind colour blindness where a blue background could be indistinguishable from black text.
 

takno

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The most famous platform signage with the public are the BR 1940s totems (they're street art these days), not the BR plain white.
Could you describe these? I'm not really sure what they are
 

Deerfold

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The Friends of the Settle–Carlisle Line could put up extra signage in classic styles if they wish to, I'm sure nobody would stop them. But in terms of the actual main ones, the point is rather to achieve consistency and accessibility, so different designs and extra information stuck in would rather defeat the point.

Putting classic style signage on one line opens a whole rabbit hole of where do you stop doing it. Lots of lines/stations are considered period, do you give them all unique signage to match that character and defeat the point or do you give them all the consistent design and any character can come from the surroundings instead?
What seems odd, (having been at Ribblehead yesterday) is that if the aim is consistency, why have only the station names been changed? All other signage is unchanged - so there's now less consistency than before these signs were put up. My non-transport-interested wife commented that the station name looked a "bit weedy".
 

HarryL

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What seems odd, (having been at Ribblehead yesterday) is that if the aim is consistency, why have only the station names been changed? All other signage is unchanged - so there's now less consistency than before these signs were put up. My non-transport-interested wife commented that the station name looked a "bit weedy".
All of the signage guidelines have been updated. Northern for whatever reasons have chosen to go ahead and only do their station name boards currently, should see the full suite of new signage applied to Paddington eventually if another TOC doesn't get there first.
 

takno

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I think he means (I may be very wrong) the type that are often painted underneath railway bridges (there's several in London) next to the station. This is an example.
Ahh, yes. I thought that was pre-grouping, although now I come to think of it it does appear to be national. It's quite pretty, and would work fairly week if it had been restricted to just a place name. Used in the range of places it is though, it's just overkill that stops you from working out exactly what you're looking at, and reduces the space available for the actual text
 

LeeLivery

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I think he means (I may be very wrong) the type that are often painted underneath railway bridges (there's several in London) next to the station. This is an example.

I do mean this, I tried to find the actual name of them, '1940s totem' is all I could find.

Oh god, no no no. This is 2021 not 1921.

The London roundel is older, mind. While I wouldn't personally choose them, I bet they wouldn't go down too badly.

Ahh, yes. I thought that was pre-grouping, although now I come to think of it it does appear to be national. It's quite pretty, and would work fairly week if it had been restricted to just a place name. Used in the range of places it is though, it's just overkill that stops you from working out exactly what you're looking at, and reduces the space available for the actual text

I agree. If I had to use them, it'd be for station names only, and keep the planned GBR design guide for everything else.

The rounded edges and simple colour would in my eyes be OK. But the sign colour (background) and text colour must still provide a good contrast. I fear that brings us back to black text on a white background (or vice versa ?). Especially bear in mind colour blindness where a blue background could be indistinguishable from black text.

Of course, signage must be readable for all. If I was deciding, I'd go DB style. But if it had to be white, I'd pick the EMT/EMR style. Having used a few EMR stations recently, the signs do look classy.
 

Deerfold

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All of the signage guidelines have been updated. Northern for whatever reasons have chosen to go ahead and only do their station name boards currently, should see the full suite of new signage applied to Paddington eventually if another TOC doesn't get there first.
For those complaining about the cost of fancy designs it seems odd that Northern are choosing to need multiple visits to stations to do something that wasn't urgent.
 

domcoop7

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Slightly off topic, but relevant to branding, my mind was blown when I read the following Tweet by Richard Price, former CEO of the Office of Rail and Road, ORR!


Screenshot_2021-09-15-17-06-41-745_com.twitter.android~2.jpg

I tried VERY HARD to make sure our logos at ORR were rail blue, or as close as possible. It was entirely deliberate. And for some branding we used Rail alphabet. I insisted on ‘Carter Takes A Train’ for our phone system holding music, too. https://t.co/0qNwMGrww3
 
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Inthewest

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Do what you like with posters etc.. but a lack of colour on a station nameboard is not going to cause a meltdown (except on here it seems).
But do they look cheap, cheerful and an effort to save money or look stingy? Because if the signage is like that, maybe the trains are too! Or do they project a image of a company that cares about it's customers?
If I was a travelling passenger, I'd be more likely to travel with a company that has some sort of brand. Black writing on plain white isn't really much of anything and while functional, so is Smart Price toilet paper.


The arguments for years have been about replacing the colourful signs of one company with the colourful signs of another and the usual ‘waste of money’ remarks. Now it is being standardised into something simple with no need to alter it in years to come because a swoosh has gone out of fashion and needs to be replaced with a triangle or something daft like that.

This is hopefully going to be a one hit simple rebrand (nothing fancy, just something that does the job it is intended to do) that can then be put to bed for years to come and divert us onto more important things such as safety, accessibility, cleanliness, reliability etc…
Remember, it's not about having some multi-coloured expensive sign that sings the trains at you.
It's about a corporate brand and a company identity. Even GBR will need an identity and brand, hence Rail Alphabet 2.
People seem to miss the fact that each company wants it's own brand and own identity and dismiss signage replacement as a "waste of money". It really isn't but not many people see that.

To understand the power of brand and identity, look at the Virgin Group. While not many are fans of Richard Branson, the brand he has "built" from a marketing point of view will always be one of success. Other brands that got in there include Blutac, Sellotape, Tippex, Hoover and to bring things up to date, Google - people rarely use the term "search" these days, they just say "google it".
While these brands aren't public service companies, people need to start looking at GBR from a marketing/branding point of view, not a paying passenger.
 
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Tio Terry

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" But do they look cheap, cheerful and an effort to save money or look stingy? Because if the signage is like that, maybe the trains are too! Or do they project a image of a company that cares about it's customers?
If I was a travelling passenger, I'd be more likely to travel with a company that has some sort of brand. Black writing on plain white isn't really much of anything and while functional, so is Smart Price toilet paper."


They are also very clear for those with visual disabilities to use and easily understand. Signs are for wayfinding, not brand identification. By all means paint the trains whatever colour you like, but remember that signs on stations are there to enable people to find the places they need to go to, they have no other purpose.
 

Class360/1

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" But do they look cheap, cheerful and an effort to save money or look stingy? Because if the signage is like that, maybe the trains are too! Or do they project a image of a company that cares about it's customers?
If I was a travelling passenger, I'd be more likely to travel with a company that has some sort of brand. Black writing on plain white isn't really much of anything and while functional, so is Smart Price toilet paper."


They are also very clear for those with visual disabilities to use and easily understand. Signs are for wayfinding, not brand identification. By all means paint the trains whatever colour you like, but remember that signs on stations are there to enable people to find the places they need to go to, they have no other purpose.
This ⬆️
Fully agree with you
 

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