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Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

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Mogz

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Indeed it did, it also had the blue tartan seat covers from 1st and thicker padding on the seats. It's a shame they changed it back in a way as it would have worked as a standard premium coach (or maybe half of it). It's not as good as proper 1st on a Pendolino, being 2+2, but provided it was stated up front that that would be what you got on Voyagers it is still a considerable upgrade from the others.

(Indeed anyone who says Voyagers are all rubbish needs to try a ride in one of those coaches!)
I agree. The hybrid coach on Avanti shows what potential these reliable trains could have had. Unfortunately, Virgin and later CrossCountry went for the Ryanair style option of packing as many seats in as possible. With an EMT/EMR style layout and longer trains, the Voyagers might have even been popular!
 
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Carlisle

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It's a shame they changed it back in a way as it would have worked as a standard premium coach (or maybe half of it). It's not as good as proper 1st on a Pendolino, being 2+2, but provided it was stated up front that that would be what you got on Voyagers it is still a considerable upgrade from the others.
Think they’d have needed to offer free drinks /snacks similar to the old Silver Standard concept otherwise the TOC would be slated by punters who’d suddenly be asked for £20 for exactly the same seat they’d previously occupied for years at no extra charge .
 
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driverd

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The menu aside, I'm still failing to see what the difference between First and Standard Premium is now other than food, drink and use of a lounge when it's open...
....I'm not expecting anything grand, I just don't understand why that would cause a ticket to be £175 rather than £90, for example. Eighty-five pounds for a glass or two of cheap prosecco and a meal with no meat in it? It would cost less to buy three or four three-course meals from Cote Brasserie!
Love the comparison at the end there - do rather agree.

I suppose its an attempt to do what the airlines do with premium economy. As others have pointed out, though, the problem is then that first is miles away from the step up you see in the airlines.

Maybe it's something they're going to work on? Improved attentiveness in first now there's fewer customers to attend to?
 

Starmill

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I just don't understand why that would cause a ticket to be £175 rather than £90, for example. Eighty-five pounds for a glass or two of cheap prosecco and a meal with no meat in it? It would cost less to buy three or four three-course meals from Cote Brasserie!
I rather imagine that's the idea. Like when you're charged £3.65 for a soft drink from a syrup gun. The company pays a few pence for the syrup and the water, and a nominal contribution goes to the fixed cost of employing the serving staff, disposal of the waste and rent, bills and business rates on the premises. And then they keep £3.50 in profit.
 

Kite159

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Love the comparison at the end there - do rather agree.

I suppose its an attempt to do what the airlines do with premium economy. As others have pointed out, though, the problem is then that first is miles away from the step up you see in the airlines.

Maybe it's something they're going to work on? Improved attentiveness in first now there's fewer customers to attend to?

Assuming the staff actually pay more attention to the passengers in first class and not just do one drinks run before "retiring" out of sight
 

Grumpy Git

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Assuming the staff actually pay more attention to the passengers in first class and not just do one drinks run before "retiring" out of sight
Once jumped on an Avanti for Liverpool at Crewe in 1st.

We were almost at Lime St before I tracked down the steward and managed to cajole a scotch. I think they hide once past Rugby?
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Once jumped on an Avanti for Liverpool at Crewe in 1st.

We were almost at Lime St before I tracked down the steward and managed to cajole a scotch. I think they hide once past Rugby?
I have always found them incredibly more attentive and hospitable on northbound runs. No clue why.
 

takno

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Assuming the staff actually pay more attention to the passengers in first class and not just do one drinks run before "retiring" out of sight
Maybe they should fit call buttons to the seats.
 

Starmill

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Good idea. The service really does need to be exemplary - immediate, high quality and deferential - to justify the cost. I question if the railway can really do what premium air services manage.
The charter operators are totally capable, on this sort of staff to passenger ratio, and with an onboard chef. Absolutely no reason whatsoever beyond the particular culture of companies involved.
 

Grumpy Git

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Good idea. The service really does need to be exemplary - immediate, high quality and deferential - to justify the cost. I question if the railway can really do what premium air services manage.

It would also need staff with 100% the right mindset, skill & experience.

Edit: ............... and paid a decent salary.
 

Grumpy Git

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It would also need staff with 100% the right mindset, skill & experience.
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Do you think the staff would be happy with the pay cut to bring them in line with cabin crew?

Depends if you are talking about Qatar or Ryanair I suppose?

But the point I am trying to make in my own experience, is that in the UK particularly there are too many people working in customer facing roles who have a terrible attitude.
 

AlterEgo

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Depends if you are talking about Qatar or Ryanair I suppose?

But the point I am trying to make in my own experience, is that in the UK particularly there are too many people working in customer facing roles who have a terrible attitude.
It’s not about pay though; it’s about culture. Avanti First Class hosts on board earn about £26-28K a year (that’s quite a lot more than both Ryanair and Qatar!). They’re not minimum wage staff, and they are earning more than cabin crew with none of the safety critical duties of the same.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Depends if you are talking about Qatar or Ryanair I suppose?

But the point I am trying to make in my own experience, is that in the UK particularly there are too many people working in customer facing roles who have a terrible attitude.
Particularly in the railway industry, where you can find a shocking amount of arrogance towards customers. Many of the things I hear guards, RPIs and even catering team say to customers on a regular basis would never be tolerated in most other workplaces.

Sadly, this does de-value first class. Particularly with LNER these days, but also on Avanti, the service is a case of - here you are, you can have a small bit of food and drink I guess - don’t you dare ask for anything extra during your four hour journey though, or we’ll embarrass you with a schoolteacher comment on being greedy or “you’ve had enough” (Yes, I’ve seen an LNER host say to a woman “I think you’ve had enough” after receiving two drinks and one sandwich on a trip from Leeds to London)

Standard premium, first class, whatever. Attitude is everything and neither will be satisfactory without the basic customer service that seems so hard to find these days.
 

Djgr

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Good idea. The service really does need to be exemplary - immediate, high quality and deferential - to justify the cost. I question if the railway can really do what premium air services manage.
Yep. None of this is going to happen though.

TOCs struggle with the basics and operating three classes well (i.e. in line with the reasonable expectations of paying customers) is beyond their capabilities. (And I am tempted to write, mark my words)
 

Bletchleyite

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Yep. None of this is going to happen though.

TOCs struggle with the basics and operating three classes well (i.e. in line with the reasonable expectations of paying customers) is beyond their capabilities. (And I am tempted to write, mark my words)

Knowing what I do about the lackadaisical nature of Avanti West Coast so far, and the lack of imagination and staying power of FirstGroup generally, I am inclined to agree - SP will be a success, proper First will be a disaster. I'm not quite sure what the outcome of that will be but I suspect it will involve reverting to two classes, possibly with it having a basic level of freebies (tea, coffee, water and a snack box or similar) but probably not "full service" First as that is simply not what the customer wants any more due to the high price tag it has to carry to make money.

As a fan of "Euro-1st" i.e. a lower price but basically just being about the hard product, I hope that is the outcome, but in the meantime SP is good enough for me :)
 

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I am wondering what the point of a kitchen is on the train. I am buzzing around Europe this week and it occurred to me that it would be much easier, cheaper and efficient to simply have good quality airline-type meals reheated on board and served by the crew.

Why have a chef to just make the breakfasts? What am I missing?
 

Nova1

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I am wondering what the point of a kitchen is on the train. I am buzzing around Europe this week and it occurred to me that it would be much easier, cheaper and efficient to simply have good quality airline-type meals reheated on board and served by the crew.

Why have a chef to just make the breakfasts? What am I missing?
The sort of stuff Virgin used to serve in first class wouldn't have been something that you could throw together airline style.
 

Bletchleyite

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The sort of stuff Virgin used to serve in first class wouldn't have been something that you could throw together airline style.

Breakfasts? I'm not sure that is actually true. Most components of a traditional full English (i.e. not adding chips, hash browns etc) are entirely reheatable/microwaveable without really detracting from their quality, and if you use a Subway style toaster oven even more so. Heat them up then put on a silver platter and it looks just as good. The only issue is egg, but this can be worked around by providing small omelettes or even Spanish omelettes (which do add the potatoes), as indeed I believe they did on Voyagers which don't have a "proper" kitchen. That just leaves you needing a toaster.

For other meals it doesn't have to be steak and chips, plenty of stuff can be done in a microwave and still give a really good impression when served on a proper plate etc (go into any M&S, Waitrose etc and you'll find plenty in the ready meals aisle). It's about choosing the right meals to offer. DB seem to be reasonably good at this for the Bistrowagen.
 

Mag_seven

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I am wondering what the point of a kitchen is on the train. I am buzzing around Europe this week and it occurred to me that it would be much easier, cheaper and efficient to simply have good quality airline-type meals reheated on board and served by the crew.

Why have a chef to just make the breakfasts? What am I missing?

For some reason in the UK "Inter City" first class has always been associated with full meals whether in BR days with the restaurant car giving priority to 1st class ticket holders or in privatised days with a meal being included in the cost of your first class ticket and being served at your seat.

In Europe on board meals tend to be an add on for all classes of travel and open to all.
 
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takno

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Breakfasts? I'm not sure that is actually true. Most components of a traditional full English (i.e. not adding chips, hash browns etc) are entirely reheatable/microwaveable without really detracting from their quality, and if you use a Subway style toaster oven even more so. Heat them up then put on a silver platter and it looks just as good. The only issue is egg, but this can be worked around by providing small omelettes or even Spanish omelettes (which do add the potatoes), as indeed I believe they did on Voyagers which don't have a "proper" kitchen. That just leaves you needing a toaster.

For other meals it doesn't have to be steak and chips, plenty of stuff can be done in a microwave and still give a really good impression when served on a proper plate etc (go into any M&S, Waitrose etc and you'll find plenty in the ready meals aisle). It's about choosing the right meals to offer. DB seem to be reasonably good at this for the Bistrowagen.
I don't think you can offer anything really approaching a proper British fry-up without the use of a frying pan. You can do a rather pallid impression of half the ingredients, but the rest of it just isn't worth trying. Far better to accept that there are other things which can be eaten for breakfast and concentrate on the ones you can do in a microwave/combi oven, George Foreman or sandwich press.

The microwave operations on Swedish railways are pretty impressive, with substantial lines of people from across the train appearing at certain times of day to pick out a meal from the well-stuffed fridges and microwave it in one of the multiple self-serve microwaves. In terms of real food, the most successful stuff tends to be the part-cooked stuff as well - pierogi in Poland which takes 3 minutes in the already-boiling pan of water, crepes which get a minute in a frying pan (or microwave at a push) and some cream sprayed over the top, schnitzels that are part cooked and fry in 3 minutes.

Basically you can turn round a lot of covers in a short time in even a tiny kitchen, and if you have a reasonable supply-chain and the willingness to give 2 seats of space over to storage, you can offer a decent range of different food at the temperature it should be. What is offered on UK trains is a long way from state of the art. If anything an unreasonable level of pride in being able to knock up a mediocre fry-up is holding us back.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think you can offer anything really approaching a proper British fry-up without the use of a frying pan. You can do a rather pallid impression of half the ingredients, but the rest of it just isn't worth trying. Far better to accept that there are other things which can be eaten for breakfast and concentrate on the ones you can do in a microwave/combi oven, George Foreman or sandwich press.

You'd still use a frying pan, just not on the train. Properly fried premium sausages and bacon (unless you like it frazzled) microwave just fine, as do tomatoes, beans, black pudding etc, as none of them are supposed to be crispy per-se. It's only the egg that poses a challenge (though a decent solution is, as I mentioned, mini or Spanish omelettes), and potatoes are not traditionally part of a full English in any form (though the hash brown has arguably been adopted).

No reason you couldn't offer other options like porridge, fruit bowls, cereals, pastries etc of course.
 

mmh

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What's the benefit? The train already has a kitchen, so you may as well use it. You'll still need someone to operate the microwave, so may as well have them use the oven / rings instead.

Doing it full-on airline style sounds like it could well actually be more expensive to me. Airlines do it as they have no option.
 

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The sort of stuff Virgin used to serve in first class wouldn't have been something that you could throw together airline style.
Why does it have to be exactly the same? There are lots of good hot breakfasts available from airlines, it doesn’t need to be an identical offering to what Virgin had.

What's the benefit? The train already has a kitchen, so you may as well use it. You'll still need someone to operate the microwave, so may as well have them use the oven / rings instead.

Doing it full-on airline style sounds like it could well actually be more expensive to me. Airlines do it as they have no option.
Begs the question “why only use it for a few hours of the fifteen hours the train is in service for every day?”.
 

ainsworth74

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Begs the question “why only use it for a few hours of the fifteen hours the train is in service for every day?”.
Man, wait until someone tells you what GWR are doing with their IETs and all those kitchens :lol: ;)
 
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