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Finalists - Best UK 'High Speed' train

Out of these 3 finalists, which one would you crown the best UK High Speed train?

  • Class 43 HST

    Votes: 140 46.5%
  • Class 91 IC 225

    Votes: 57 18.9%
  • Class 390 Pendolino

    Votes: 104 34.6%

  • Total voters
    301
  • Poll closed .
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MattRat

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Just to add, I cannot understand this love for Pendolinos, always thought it looked like a lego train in that crap Virgin grey livery, and the ride on the northern WCML is awful if you suffer travel sickness. What is enjoyable to some is a barrier to travel for others. I know at least 2 people who have been physically sick between Preston and Scotland , and I myself have felt sick. And thats just from the Tilt.
Wasn't the whole goal to fix that problem from the APT? I wonder if they need to recalibrate it.
 
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Neptune

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I aren’t voting because I don’t think a group of rail enthusiasts can decide what is ‘best’, I always think threads like this should really be titled ‘favourite’.

However I shall look at the 3 trains individually and give my own opinions on each.

HST - It was a game changer in the 1970’s when it entered traffic. For all those complaining about the original seats (comfy enough for me but the armrests are a ballache which means they are poor by modern standards) they were a step change from dismal mk1 & early mk2 coaches. They were fast for the times and ride reasonably well (not as well as some people like to make out). The interior has been altered over the years but for me the best mk3 refurb wasn’t on an HST but the ATW refurb with those comfy grammar seats in the standard (not original) layout.

They were known as the journey shrinker and that’s exactly what they were when introduced. It was the best in it’s time but was soon dated hence the various mods over the years culminating in power operated doors for the coaches and re-engining etc.. for the power cars. Because me and HST are about the same age and I grew up with them from new I have always had a massive soft spot for them, especially the original ECML locos but time moves on.

Class 91/mk4 - I have always liked these trains and it’s such a shame that they were not allowed to show their full potential (tilt/140mph). The locos were troublesome (not the only locos to have issues from new) and the mk4’s needed bogie mods to improve the ride. However their performance was even better than the HST’s they replaced and they were the absolute stalwarts of the ECML for 30 years.

The coach interiors were dark and moody in FC and bright and modern with very uncomfortable seats in SC from new (at least they had moveable armrests though). The Mallard refurbishment was decent enough which was then improved by VTEC when they went for a comfier seat cushion in SC and the lovely mood lit FC. However the best interior refurbishment was done by GC. The FC looks every bit as classy as the last GWR FC refurb. Again I have a real soft spot for these trains as I saw them from development and was mightily impressed by the class 91’s noise and power as a teenager.

Class 390 - Ah yes, the marmite of trains. My opinion is somewhat limited on these trains but I have been on a few in both classes over the years. Firstly the elephant in the room, the windows. I can’t help thinking that I read somewhere that the windows were so small due to the 140mph planned top speed and crashworthiness but I may be wrong. I don’t actually mind the window size as I aren’t a window gazer particularly but I should think that a bit of planning for reserving a proper window seat should solve this issue. The seats I find very comfortable in both classes (I’m 183cm) and I do like the FC ambience.

The tilt is fantastic and you can just notice it enough so it doesn’t cause the nausea of the APT. They have totally revolutionised the WCML compared to the ageing locos and stock they replaced. Again, it’s a shame they couldn’t be utilised to their full potential with regards speed. Hopefully the refurbishment will improve on a decent enough train.

So that’s my opinion of the 3 and I don’t necessarily think anyone’s opinion would confirm which is best (as I say, favourite would be a better word). They’re all decent trains which improved the routes they worked on in my opinion with their own flaws (nothing is perfect).
 

Irascible

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I did like the Westerns and Hymeks but not growing up on the (then) Western Region of British Rail, did not travel behind them very much. Same with the Class 50's

Ahhh the good 'ol days at Reading...
As I said in the other thread I used to try & get a service using Mk2 ac rather than a HST if I could, not really all that much more time from the SW & pleasant enough not to care, if the wheel noise didn't bother you. HSTs had a brief wow factor until speed restricted, but never found them *amazing* for down here.
 

Ken H

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Wasn't the whole goal to fix that problem from the APT? I wonder if they need to recalibrate it.
Not sure what you can do. Motion sickness is caused by the jolt you get when your ear balance system (vestibular system) and your eyes disagree on which way is up!
You have 3 tubes in your ear that do this. You can disable this a bit by lying down flat - no pillow. Not really possible on a train.
Or sit facing forward and concentrating on horozontal and vertical objects, so your brain knows the real 'up'

One solution in APT days was to not fully compensate for the sideways centrifugal forces, so the passenger felt some lateral acceleration. So he got less of a shock when his perception of viewing stuff and his ears balance system disagreed.
 

MattRat

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One solution in APT days was to not fully compensate for the sideways centrifugal forces, so the passenger felt some lateral acceleration. So he got less of a shock when his perception of viewing stuff and his ears balance system disagreed.
That's what I was referring to. Maybe people need to feel the tilt more, although I don't know how easy that would be.
 

Irascible

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Looking at the horizon is a trick for keeping motion sickness down on a boat, I'd think it might work on a train too. Should be easy to recalibrate the tilt if needed.

Weren't a lot of the cases from the notorious APT tests mostly due to getting journos drunk?
 

Ken H

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Looking at the horizon is a trick for keeping motion sickness down on a boat, I'd think it might work on a train too. Should be easy to recalibrate the tilt if needed.

Weren't a lot of the cases from the notorious APT tests mostly due to getting journos drunk?
Also a problem with stinky chemical toilets.
 

trebor79

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Class 390 - Ah yes, the marmite of trains. My opinion is somewhat limited on these trains but I have been on a few in both classes over the years. Firstly the elephant in the room, the windows. I can’t help thinking that I read somewhere that the windows were so small due to the 140mph planned top speed and crashworthiness but I may be wrong.
I think that was the reason for the wide pillars, but the windows are also not very deep, and I seem to recall reading somewhere that this was because the ceiling height has to be lower to fit the UK loading gauge.
I believe they are the smallest windows on a UK train.
I do think they contribute to a rather cosy/claustrophobic feeling to the interior.
I dislike the standard class seats in these trains, but that might be because every one I'd ever sat in has been knackered and seemingly with no give left in the foam.
 

Purple Orange

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they were the absolute stalwarts of the ECML for 30 years.

I think this is often overlooked about the 91s/Mk4s/IC225s. People celebrate the HST, but despite their longevity they were replaced on the ECML as the primary train after 14-15 years. The IC225s have been a far more successful train on the ECML in that context. I wonder if GWML had not taken so long to get electrified, would the HST have been around as long? It would have remained on the MML, XC and services north of Edinburgh and west of Cardiff & Bristol, but not the main train type.

As I see it, the success of the HST beyond 1990 isn’t down to the train, but rather successive governments failing to invest in our railway infrastructure in an adequate manner. Imagine if the IC225s could have operated on the GWML?!
 

Bletchleyite

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I think that was the reason for the wide pillars, but the windows are also not very deep, and I seem to recall reading somewhere that this was because the ceiling height has to be lower to fit the UK loading gauge.

It's just because the UK Pendolino is a squashed Euro-Pendolino, so the windows (which aren't massive on the European ones) are scaled down with the rest of the structure.
 

Neptune

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I think this is often overlooked about the 91s/Mk4s/IC225s. People celebrate the HST, but despite their longevity they were replaced on the ECML as the primary train after 14-15 years. The IC225s have been a far more successful train on the ECML in that context. I wonder if GWML had not taken so long to get electrified, would the HST have been around as long? It would have remained on the MML, XC and services north of Edinburgh and west of Cardiff & Bristol, but not the main train type.
It was less than that even. HST’s weren’t introduced onto the Eastern region until 1978. The first electric services were operated by the class 89 in 1988 with an HST set and surrogate DVT. The first 91’s started to enter squadron service on the Leeds route during 1989 with the HST rakes then with mk4’s following a bit later. Full route entry into service was completed in 1991. There were some initial plans around the time for additional sets for the WCML but this was succeeded by the IC250 (the original class 93+mk5’s) which was then abandoned.
 

Irascible

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The HST was conceived as a stop-gap until more lines were electrified anyway, so wires up out of Kings Cross after a decade is precisely what was expected. That the handled being used so long is a tribute to some good R&D.
 

trebor79

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I think my favourite was the 225, post Mallard refurb. I didn't like them as originally built, they were a bit spartan and clinical and the lighting was horribly harsh, especially at night. Mallard made them really quite nice. I don't like the later refurb as much.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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However the best interior refurbishment was done by GC.
So the best Mk3s and the best Mk4s have both ended up on the ATW/TfW Holyhead-Cardiff route, where they don't exceed 90mph?
I agree about the Mk3 refurb, I hope those Grammer seats get reused somewhere else on TfW.
I must try the TfW (ex-GC) Mk4s now they are running 3tpd each way.
 

BoroAndy

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Clearly the 43s. The noise as they leave the station and accelerate quickly is impressive. Many many years ago I got from Kings Cross to York on one in 100 mins. Nothing these days gets anywhere close. Only issue was the brake smells, but it could be called a feature.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Clearly the 43s. The noise as they leave the station and accelerate quickly is impressive. Many many years ago I got from Kings Cross to York on one in 100 mins. Nothing these days gets anywhere close. Only issue was the brake smells, but it could be called a feature.
I consider a noisy train a bad thing. One of the things I love about Pendolinos is how they creep away quietly, the only sound being that gentle moaning sound they make, reminds me of someone breathing out very heavily :lol:

Also, they accelerate quickly? Are you sure?
 

Milo T.K

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Clearly the 43s. The noise as they leave the station and accelerate quickly is impressive. Many many years ago I got from Kings Cross to York on one in 100 mins. Nothing these days gets anywhere close. Only issue was the brake smells, but it could be called a feature.
The 8xx on electric has far superior acceleration, the hst feels slow in my opinion and a bit janky at times, the Pendolino is defo the best out of all of them tho
 

Irascible

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HST acceleration *is* slow, it's like starting a car in top gear. 5 mins to 125 for an 8 car on the flat iirc?
 

Mat17

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I would be genuinely interested to know how many voters for the HST are younger than forty…
Yep here's one!

I'll vote for anything with slamdoors.

The HST was conceived as a stop-gap until more lines were electrified anyway, so wires up out of Kings Cross after a decade is precisely what was expected. That the handled being used so long is a tribute to some good R&D.
Same could be said of the Pacers to be honest, stop gap, temporary... Lasted a long time though.
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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The 8xx on electric has far superior acceleration, the hst feels slow in my opinion and a bit janky at times, the Pendolino is defo the best out of all of them tho
I would say this is a very good and accurate summary
 

Mat17

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Kids today: voting for a unit. World is finished.
Always loved DMUs, never got the obsession with locos. But then I always took more interest in the carriages than the motive power.

Must be a generational thing. HSTs for intercity work, 101s for everything else. :)
 

Bletchleyite

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Kids today: voting for a unit. World is finished.

I think I'm about the same age as you, but surely all of them are really "units" because they work fixed formation? When it comes to electric power, the advantage of LHCS is flexibility - once you go fixed formation you lose it. With diesel the advantage is also not having chugging engines under you, but that doesn't apply to a Pendolino.

Always loved DMUs, never got the obsession with locos. But then I always took more interest in the carriages than the motive power.

Must be a generational thing. HSTs for intercity work, 101s for everything else. :)

:)

I too loved 101s, particularly the forward view but also the sound etc. And the forward view, it turns out, actually taught me quite well how to drive one when for my 30th birthday I finally realised my dream of having a go!
 

Mat17

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I too loved 101s, particularly the forward view but also the sound etc. And the forward view, it turns out, actually taught me quite well how to drive one when for my 30th birthday I finally realised my dream of having a go!
Lucky so and so! I can only dream...

To get back on topic though. Nothing in my mind beats the deafening scream of the old Paxman Valenta engines... Terrified me as a child, intrigued me also.

Modern quiet trains just seem so... neutered? Like vegetarian lions.
 

Bletchleyite

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Lucky so and so! I can only dream...

A number of preserved railways offer driving experience on DMUs, I did mine at the Ecclesbourne Valley (Wirksworth) but there are quite a few.

To get back on topic though. Nothing in my mind beats the deafening scream of the old Paxman Valenta engines... Terrified me as a child, intrigued me also.

Modern quiet trains just seem so... neutered? Like vegetarian lions.

True, even HSTs with the newer engine!
 
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