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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

G

GC class B1

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I have just read this thread. Can anyone advice me please regarding the push pull controls. As I recall Mk 4 originally had FDM control not TDM. TDM control on the MK 3 LHCs used the RCH couplers on the coaches and the locos were fitted with TDM. on Chiltern I assumed the Class 67 had RCH couplers and TDM fitted so they would work with Mk 3 LHCS. Wouldn’t it be logical to fit the Mk 4 with TDM so they would work with the Class 67.
 
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RailUK Forums

43096

43096

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GC class B1 said:
on Chiltern I assumed the Class 67 had RCH couplers and TDM fitted so they would work with Mk 3 LHCS. Wouldn’t it be logical to fit the Mk 4 with TDM so they would work with the Class 67.
Click to expand...
No, the Mark 3s were modified with the AAR control system used on the 67s. The Mark 4s are being similarly modified to work with the AAR system.
 
R

Rhydgaled

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GC class B1 said:
I have just read this thread. Can anyone advice me please regarding the push pull controls. As I recall Mk 4 originally had FDM control not TDM. TDM control on the MK 3 LHCs used the RCH couplers on the coaches and the locos were fitted with TDM. on Chiltern I assumed the Class 67 had RCH couplers and TDM fitted so they would work with Mk 3 LHCS. Wouldn’t it be logical to fit the Mk 4 with TDM so they would work with the Class 67.
Click to expand...
I thought the class 90s fitted with TDM could work both mark 3 and mark 4 sets, which suggests the mark 4 sets had TDM just as the mark 3s did. Has a class 86 or class 87 ever worked push-pull with a mark 4 set (I believe the mark 2 DBSOs also used TDM when they were paired with 86s/87s on the London-Norwich route)?

I also understood that the only diesel locomotives which have ever been fitted with TDM were the buffer-fitted class 43 powercars used as surrogate DVTs when the class 91s were first introduced and perhaps the ScotRail class 47/7s (though, if they were TDM, the 47/7s were an earlier type of TDM that was only compatible with the DBSOs and not with DVTs). I never understood why Chiltern/DB modified both their class 67s (fitting remote fire-fighting equipment) and the mark 3 DVTs (fitting AAR) rather than just modifing the class 67s (fitting remote fire-fighting equipment and TDM) which would have given them a pool of 67s that could work push-pull with any DVT/DBSO. Instead they ended up with a small pool of diesel locos and a small pool of DVTs that are compatible with each other and the same seems to be true with the TfW mark 4s.
 
T

tomuk

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Rhydgaled said:
I thought the class 90s fitted with TDM could work both mark 3 and mark 4 sets, which suggests the mark 4 sets had TDM just as the mark 3s did. Has a class 86 or class 87 ever worked push-pull with a mark 4 set (I believe the mark 2 DBSOs also used TDM when they were paired with 86s/87s on the London-Norwich route)?

I also understood that the only diesel locomotives which have ever been fitted with TDM were the buffer-fitted class 43 powercars used as surrogate DVTs when the class 91s were first introduced and perhaps the ScotRail class 47/7s (though, if they were TDM, the 47/7s were an earlier type of TDM that was only compatible with the DBSOs and not with DVTs). I never understood why Chiltern/DB modified both their class 67s (fitting remote fire-fighting equipment) and the mark 3 DVTs (fitting AAR) rather than just modifing the class 67s (fitting remote fire-fighting equipment and TDM) which would have given them a pool of 67s that could work push-pull with any DVT/DBSO. Instead they ended up with a small pool of diesel locos and a small pool of DVTs that are compatible with each other and the same seems to be true with the TfW mark 4s.
Click to expand...
Class 47/7s and Mk2 DBSOs did have an earlier version of TDM. This was upgraded on the DBSOs when they transferred to Norwich to work with the 86s.
86,87,89,90 and 91s were all fitted with the later TDM, the difference was how the TDM signals were fed through the train. On Mk2s and Mk3s the TDM did use the RCH jumpers. As these were cables were originally for lighting and later PA there were always issues. On the Mk4s a system was needed to control the doors, this is FDM, both are both fed through the train on dedicated cables using UIC connectors.

The TDM system was very good in its day but the equipment is expensive old and non standard. Fitting AAR to the DVTs and the through cabling to the coaches is relatively straightforward it is just a 27 way cable old analogue technology not a big computer rack like TDM.
 
M

Mollman

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Anyone fancy printing some menus?
https://www.sell2wales.gov.wales/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG370715
Title:TfW - Menus for Mark IV Services
Published by:Transport for Wales
Publication Date:20/08/2021
Deadline Date:10/09/2021
Deadline Time:12:00
Notice Type:Contract Notice
Has Documents:No
Has ESPD:No
Abstract:TfW requires a supplier to print high-quality, full-colour branded breakfast, lunch, dinner and trolley menus for its rail catering service based using TfW-provided standard branded layouts and bilingual content.
Click to expand...
 
ABB125

ABB125

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B

Bletchleyite

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Birmingham36 said:
What are the MK4 Coaches like to travel on? I have been on the MK3 Coaches they are comfortable but very bumpy.
Click to expand...

Generally nice inside (good seats, a nice warm wood-effect-based colour scheme, big windows etc) but at speed they ride like a cart, far worse than Mk3s. However at the low speeds you get in Wales they may well be OK.
 
47827

47827

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The track also plays a part in the ride quality of mk3 and mk4 carriages. Mk3 stock general good quality ride until you were getting bounced everywhere on a diversion route like the S&C with jointed track (before it was replaced). Think I personally used to find ride quality better on mk3 stock than mk4s but the former are no longer an option so not overly relevant now.
 
XAM2175

XAM2175

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ABB125 said:
Um, could they not just buy a pack of fancy paper then print it at the office? Seems a bit silly to outsource it - even if it might cost slightly more per sheet to print in-house, surely this would be offset by the costs of procuring a contractor?
Click to expand...
Almost certainly not. At the quantities they're likely to want, doing it on a colour laser in the office will be vastly more expensive then having a high-volume contractor do it.
 
krus_aragon

krus_aragon

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XAM2175 said:
Almost certainly not. At the quantities they're likely to want, doing it on a colour laser in the office will be vastly more expensive then having a high-volume contractor do it.
Click to expand...
Plus there'll still be the design and layout work to do. That's a key part of what's being offered for tender.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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Birmingham36 said:
What are the MK4 Coaches like to travel on? I have been on the MK3 Coaches they are comfortable but very bumpy.
Click to expand...
It took a long time for the Mk4s to settle into a decent ride on the ECML, and the suspension had to be repeatedly tweaked for smooth(er) 125mph running.
(They were of course designed for 140mph running).
TfW doesn't want/need speeds over 110mph (and that only for a short distance in Cheshire), and 90mph will do fine on most of the network.
I haven't used Mk4s much since the Mallard refit, but we'll have to see if they need "tuning down" for TfW speeds.
 
T

tspaul26

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ABB125 said:
Um, could they not just buy a pack of fancy paper then print it at the office? Seems a bit silly to outsource it - even if it might cost slightly more per sheet to print in-house, surely this would be offset by the costs of procuring a contractor?
Click to expand...

XAM2175 said:
Almost certainly not. At the quantities they're likely to want, doing it on a colour laser in the office will be vastly more expensive then having a high-volume contractor do it.
Click to expand...
Depends on the spec and finish as well: if you want some nice glossy card booklets or hot foil stamping then the office printer can’t deliver that.
 
C

craigybagel

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craigybagel said:
As part of the timetable change and the reintroduction of an all day Cardiff - Holyhead service, 2 MKIV sets are now booked in service on weekdays working 3 round trips between them.

Diagram 1:
1W91 06:45 CDF-HHD
1V96 11:33 HHD-CDF
1W96 17:16 CDF-HHD

Diagram 2:
1V91 05:33 HHD-CDF
1W93 11:22 CDF-HHD
1V98 16:36 HHD-CDF

CDF - Cardiff Central
HHD - Holyhead
Click to expand...

From the MKIV diagram thread.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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I'm on 1W91, the early northbound Mk4 working, from Chester to Holyhead (stops only at Llandudno Jn and Bangor).
Very nice 4-car set, but only about 25 on board from Chester, 2 in First class.
Buffet open but no custom.
A surprising number has just boarded at Llandudno Jn (some, sadly, under the impression we were heading for Chester).
It's good to have Mk4 space and quality, but it's difficult to understand the economics of this service.
TfW's 2-car DMU services meanwhile are full to bursting.
CAF 197 002 also on test today, stopped briefly at Flint.
I believe this held us up at Rhyl on its return trip from Llandudno Jn, with brake problems.
 
B

Bikeman78

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LNW-GW Joint said:
I'm on 1W91, the early northbound Mk4 working, from Chester to Holyhead (stops only at Llandudno Jn and Bangor).
Very nice 4-car set, but only about 25 on board from Chester, 2 in First class.
Buffet open but no custom.
A surprising number has just boarded at Llandudno Jn (some, sadly, under the impression we were heading for Chester).
It's good to have Mk4 space and quality, but it's difficult to understand the economics of this service.
TfW's 2-car DMU services meanwhile are full to bursting.
CAF 197 002 also on test today, stopped briefly at Flint.
I believe this held us up at Rhyl on its return trip from Llandudno Jn, with brake problems.
Click to expand...
I expect the return working will be busier. 1W93 is now loco hauled. That train is usually rammed west of Chester. The Grand Central sets will run to Manchester so they will be well used.
 
47827

47827

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LNW-GW Joint said:
I'm on 1W91, the early northbound Mk4 working, from Chester to Holyhead (stops only at Llandudno Jn and Bangor).
Very nice 4-car set, but only about 25 on board from Chester, 2 in First class.
Buffet open but no custom.
A surprising number has just boarded at Llandudno Jn (some, sadly, under the impression we were heading for Chester).
It's good to have Mk4 space and quality, but it's difficult to understand the economics of this service.
TfW's 2-car DMU services meanwhile are full to bursting.
CAF 197 002 also on test today, stopped briefly at Flint.
I believe this held us up at Rhyl on its return trip from Llandudno Jn, with brake problems.
Click to expand...

Suspect its a train that will be busier on the coast at certain times of year and it'll be also be losing passengers by not having time to stop anywhere like Rhyl in between. But I think the bit south of Chester (especially Cardiff to Shrewsbury) will be the main footfall given its use to northbound Marches commuters. The stopping pattern of the 1136 back off would probably increase numbers on board but it'll be of most use in busier times of year as the Coast line does see big seasonal fluctuations. Sadly post BR there is now limited scope to adjust services accordingly which is no fault of the train operator (most TOCs have the same obstacles).
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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I returned on a Voyager from Holyhead, and it was quite busy by Rhyl, early afternoon.
The custom on the North Wales line must be very difficult to judge, as it has different peaks to commuter lines, both daily, weekly and seasonally.
There are still quite a few tourists about.

The Mk4s have bi-lingual info screens at the car ends - as far as I could see they were scrolling a Welsh Government news-feed!
There are dual language covid safety announcements after every stop too, but not "see it, say it, sorted", thankfully.

Also on the Avanti Voyager, there were Welsh language auto-announcements:
eg "Dyma orsaf Y Rhyl..." (ie next station is Rhyl, we hope you've enjoyed your journey" etc).
I don't think I've heard Welsh announcements on a West Coast train before.
Presumably First use the same method on GWR services in South Wales?

And finally, the pedestrian bridge from Holyhead station over the inner harbour to the town is open (was said to have been closed for safety reasons).
But Holyhead station (P2/3 shed) is encased in scaffolding and looks a complete dump.
Luckily the ferry terminal is adjacent and has some waiting/refreshment facilities outside the check-in area.

Mk4 1W91 Chester 27Sep21r.jpg Mk4 1W91 Holyhead 27Sep21r.jpg
 
Last edited:
berneyarms

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LNW-GW Joint said:
I returned on a Voyager from Holyhead, and it was quite busy by Rhyl, early afternoon.
The custom on the North Wales line must be very difficult to judge, as it has different peaks to commuter lines, both daily, weekly and seasonally.
There are still quite a few tourists about.

The Mk4s have bi-lingual info screens at the car ends - as far as I could see they were scrolling a Welsh Government news-feed!
There are dual language covid safety announcements after every stop too, but not "see it, say it, sorted", thankfully.

Also on the Avanti Voyager, there were Welsh language auto-announcements:
eg "Dyma orsaf Y Rhyl..." (ie next station is Rhyl, we hope you've enjoyed your journey" etc).
I don't think I've heard Welsh announcements on a West Coast train before.
Presumably First use the same method on GWR services in South Wales?

And finally, the pedestrian bridge from Holyhead station over the inner harbour to the town is open (was said to have been closed for safety reasons).
But Holyhead station (P2/3 shed) is encased in scaffolding and looks a complete dump.
Luckily the ferry terminal is adjacent and has some waiting/refreshment facilities outside the check-in area.

View attachment 103174 View attachment 103176
Click to expand...
It is the elevated footbridge from P1 to just opposite Station Street that is closed.

The Celtic Gateway footbridge across the inner harbour from the ferry terminal has been open all along.

As to the aesthetics of the station currently, I am not sure that you can carry out major refurbishment works anywhere without it looking like a building site.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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Another oddity I noticed at Holyhead was a door off P2 marked "Office for National Statistics".
Something about measuring port traffic post-Brexit perhaps?
 
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JN114

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Is there a formation list, which vehicles make up which sets?
 
berneyarms

berneyarms

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LNW-GW Joint said:
Another oddity I noticed at Holyhead was a door off P2 marked "Office for National Statistics".
Something about measuring port traffic post-Brexit perhaps?
Click to expand...
They’ve been there all along doing surveys of cross-border passengers and goods.

Nothing to do with Brexit.
 
43096

43096

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JN114 said:
Is there a formation list, which vehicles make up which sets?
Click to expand...
Currently formed as:
HD01 12225 10325 11323 12454 82226
HD02 12219 10328 11324 12447 82229
HD03 12217 10312 11325 12446 82216
 
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