Delay repay with two singles

mad_rich · 24 Sep 2021

Hi folks,

Question for a friend of mine, who was delayed 2.5 hours on LNER between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

I think >120 minutes qualifies for a full refund of the return journey? He had purchased two Advance singles, and they're only refunding him for the single on the affected journey. Is this right?

I thought it didn't need to be a 'return ticket', just the cost of his return journey?

TIA

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 24 Sep 2021

It does have to be a return ticket, I'm afraid, and the TOC is correct.

mad_rich · 24 Sep 2021

Oh, that's a shame.

Thanks for the quick response.

AlterEgo · 24 Sep 2021

mad_rich said:
Hi folks,

Question for a friend of mine, who was delayed 2.5 hours on LNER between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

I think >120 minutes qualifies for a full refund of the return journey? He had purchased two Advance singles, and they're only refunding him for the single on the affected journey. Is this right?

I thought it didn't need to be a 'return ticket', just the cost of his return journey?

TIA

The TOC is correct. As per their Website:

100% of the cost of a single ticket

100% of the cost of a return ticket
(i.e. both ways, not just one way)

He didn’t have a return ticket.

willD · 26 Sep 2021

This seems particularly harsh for anyone, like myself, who purchases two advance singles for a day trip.

I was faced with disruption to my trip from Colchester to Norwich on Thursday when there was disruption. I waited hours for a bus before they announced trains would run to Ipswich, where no bus to Stowmarket showed up for hours; it would have been 6 or 7pm by the time I arrived at Norwich just one hour before the booked return train.

I've complained to GA about the poor communication over their complete lack of information about how long replacement services would take to book, but also asked for a refund of both advance singles.

I realize now this is quite unlikely, which begs the question, if this is the case, does that mean, where advance tickets are used, as long as the minimum connection time is met between the outward and returning legs, there's only ever compensation due for the outward leg? This seems an unattractive feature of using advance tickets for day trips that I'd not noticed before.

Next time I'll spend a bit more on the day return, knowing that if something goes severely wrong then I won't have wasted any money on a pointless return leg (though I appreciate this isn't possible for every route).

507020 · 26 Sep 2021

This is an aspect of the ticketing system that needs resolving. You have the choice of either using 2 cheaper Advance singles or an Anytime or Off Peak return, which will be more expensive, but in the event of severe disruption, yield you more Delay Repay compensation than the Advance fare of the leg of your journey that was affected. It’s not much use being stranded somewhere having used a ticket successfully on your outward journey or even your outward journey being cancelled and being unable to claim a refund on your return if the train you intended to catch ran.

The compensation system needs to be based on how the delay or cancellation impacted your DAY, not just your ticket. How does this impact users of split tickets? It seems that with Advance tickets, the fares reasonable while the terms are not, while with ordinary return tickets, the terms are more reasonable while the fares are not.

Another thing I’ve noticed is that if you board an already delayed train at an intermediate station which can’t possibly arrive on time, why do passengers still have to purchase a full price ticket and then go through the refunds process, rather than a discount for the late running based on estimated arrival time being applied there and then before they leave the train?

alistairlees · 26 Sep 2021

if you travel and arrive sufficiently late then you are entitled to delay repay compensation - though, as it’s ticket-based rather than journey-based, compensation will be less in the case of severe delay, if two singles are held.
If you abandon your journey though you can get all your money back, no matter what ticket types are held.

AlterEgo · 26 Sep 2021

507020 said:
Another thing I’ve noticed is that if you board an already delayed train at an intermediate station which can’t possibly arrive on time, why do passengers still have to purchase a full price ticket and then go through the refunds process, rather than a discount for the late running based on estimated arrival time being applied there and then before they leave the train?

How would that work, for passengers requiring one or two connections? And what if the train was running 28 minutes late? How much discount should they get?

It’s not often possible to foresee the length of delay to a passenger’s journey.

Class800 · 26 Sep 2021

Only the value of the ticket yes, which is a single. But if the delay is very long, some TOCs may throw in some rail travel vouchers or a complimentary ticket for their network as well as the delay repay, but this is entirely discretionary

robbeech · 26 Sep 2021

Just another benefit (for the operators) of abolishing return tickets in favour of half priced singles adding up to the same price. The operators get a 50% reduction in their compensation costs for their worst performing services, thus reducing the true value of a ticket further.

AlbertBeale · 26 Sep 2021

robbeech said:
Just another benefit (for the operators) of abolishing return tickets in favour of half priced singles adding up to the same price. The operators get a 50% reduction in their compensation costs for their worst performing services, thus reducing the true value of a ticket further.

Does that mean that with split tickets, then even though the delay on the itinerary for the whole end-to-end journey is relevant in terms of deciding the length of the delay (providing the different legs join up with sufficient connection times and so on), the repayment (from the company whose service first caused a delay, even if that individual delay was short, but had the longer knock-on delay) will only be based on the cost of the ticket for that initially delayed leg of the journey? I assumed that the repayment covered the full end-to-end single journey if that's what the delay calculation was based on.

robbeech · 26 Sep 2021

End to End is a journey, you may use one or more tickets for this journey. Therefore delay repay should be paid to the appropriate percentage of ALL tickets held for that journey.

The return trip is a separate journey.

Of course if your split ticket has a combination of advance singles and flexible returns then the delay repay will need calculating properly, and almost certainly by a human being and i suspect due to the nature of its complexity it might be miscalculated initially but for the purposes of single direction journeys on multiple tickets you still claim as normal from the first operator that delays you. I would estimate a less than 10% success rate unfortunately but this is usually based on going through the motions with automated systems first which don't cope with this scenario well.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2021

AlbertBeale said:
Does that mean that with split tickets, then even though the delay on the itinerary for the whole end-to-end journey is relevant in terms of deciding the length of the delay (providing the different legs join up with sufficient connection times and so on), the repayment (from the company whose service first caused a delay, even if that individual delay was short, but had the longer knock-on delay) will only be based on the cost of the ticket for that initially delayed leg of the journey?

No.

AlbertBeale said:
I assumed that the repayment covered the full end-to-end single journey if that's what the delay calculation was based on.

Yes.

Horizon22 · 26 Sep 2021

I'm not entirely sure how this is contentious. You've essentially booked 2 stand-alone journeys not one. The fact you are using them as a de-facto return is neither here nor there; ultimately that's not what the tickets are.

Hadders · 26 Sep 2021

Horizon22 said:
I'm not entirely sure how this is contentious. You've essentially booked 2 stand-alone journeys not one. The fact you are using them as a de-facto return is neither here nor there; ultimately that's not what the tickets are.

On any website you don't book it as two separate journeys. You put in where you are travelling from and two and the outward and return dates. You then choose the appropriate tickets, sometimes this is a return tickets but sometimes it'll be two singles.

If you select two single tickets you then make one payment, and get one ticket on delivery reference number. To all intents and purposes you've booked a return journey but the railway doesn't see it that way....

ivorytoast28 · 26 Sep 2021

Horizon22 said:
I'm not entirely sure how this is contentious. You've essentially booked 2 stand-alone journeys not one. The fact you are using them as a de-facto return is neither here nor there; ultimately that's not what the tickets are.

But then couldn't that argument be used for not giving delay repay for a split ticket journey as they are separate? Say XC reading - Newcastle but only the final part of your split is delay, but ofc they do give it for the full journey

Hadders · 26 Sep 2021

ivorytoast28 said:
But then couldn't that argument be used for not giving delay repay for a split ticket journey as they are separate? Say XC reading - Newcastle but only the final part of your split is delay, but ofc they do give it for the full journey

The key things is that the National Rail Conditions of Travel state that more than one ticket may be used to make a journey/ Delay Repay is based on the delay to the journey.

Horizon22 · 26 Sep 2021

Hadders said:
The key things is that the National Rail Conditions of Travel state that more than one ticket may be used to make a journey/ Delay Repay is based on the delay to the journey.

This comes down to what is being described as a journey. If you're using A1, A2 & A3 for A journey I think that's a different argument to using ticket A for journey A and then ticket B for journey B, and wanting to claim the full delay of AB.

It's only potentially an issue past 120+ minutes because that is when the 100% delay converges (and it would logically have to at some point).

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2021

ivorytoast28 said:
But then couldn't that argument be used for not giving delay repay for a split ticket journey as they are separate? Say XC reading - Newcastle but only the final part of your split is delay, but ofc they do give it for the full journey

It is certainly incongruous that DR applies to the full cost of the set of tickets for a through single journey made with multiple tickets but not for a return journey made with two singles. However, incongruous it may be, it is how things are. Rules don't always make sense.

swt_passenger · 27 Sep 2021

Bletchleyite said:
It is certainly incongruous that DR applies to the full cost of the set of tickets for a through single journey made with multiple tickets but not for a return journey made with two singles. However, incongruous it may be, it is how things are. Rules don't always make sense.

They should have left normal compensation levels at a maximum of 50% of a return ticket for each journey leg, (out or return half), to allow for the reasonable possibility of being delayed in both directions.

I expect no one even thought about a passenger having long delays in both directions, hence now having to cap compensation at the ticket cost.

infobleep · 27 Sep 2021

This is how I would view it. Are the advances cheaper than the return and is this saving across a year, larger than the delay repay loss by not using a return.

If the answer is yes, then I don't care about the loss of additional delay repay.

This of course only applies where you have a choice of advance purchase tickets and returns.

Bletchleyite · 27 Sep 2021

Unless making a journey often with a tight connection onto a very infrequent service (e.g. rural Scotland or the Conwy Valley) 2+ hour delays are rare anyway. I can only recall single figures of such delays happening to me in my whole life. So it isn't really a consideration.

507020 · 28 Sep 2021

Bletchleyite said:
Unless making a journey often with a tight connection onto a very infrequent service (e.g. rural Scotland or the Conwy Valley) 2+ hour delays are rare anyway. I can only recall single figures of such delays happening to me in my whole life. So it isn't really a consideration.

Northbound WCML onto the Settle - Carlisle line might be more common though cause of delay though.

Feuillesmortes · 28 Sep 2021

Bletchleyite said:
Unless making a journey often with a tight connection onto a very infrequent service (e.g. rural Scotland or the Conwy Valley) 2+ hour delays are rare anyway. I can only recall single figures of such delays happening to me in my whole life. So it isn't really a consideration.

I think East Coast Main Line and Midland Main Line have had quite a few such instances in recent years.

Class800 · 30 Sep 2021

2 hour plus delays have happened to me many times, but not as a result of a missed connection, but as a result of a major delay en route due to infrastructure issues, e.g. points failures, signal failures, overhead line failures

Delay repay with two singles

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