Best passenger high speed train in UK?

But that's one of the problems with these discussions, what's good for one person might not be for the next.

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There is also the size issue. While a seat my be comfy for someone who is 5'6", it may well be unbearable for someone who is 6'5". Or someone who is 20st. And a low luggage rack may be OK for the horizontally challenged, but not OK for the taller person. We are not all the same shape.

61653 HTAFC said:

I'd argue that the ride quality of the mk4s was far worse than a HST, and sometimes worse at 125mph than a Pacer at 75mph (assuming the track quality was comparable in both cases). In all other areas I agree that the mk4 knocked the HSTs into a cocked hat. But that's one of the problems with these discussions, what's good for one person might not be for the next.

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I would agree that the HST had a better ride than the mark 4. I used the 125mph Colton Jc. as marker with North bound services. As the ECML and Leeds line merged, the HST ride was a the smoother.

61653 HTAFC said:

LucyP said:

...there was no hassle of a slam door, and no window to leave down that caused a draught in the coach. The vestibule end doors seemed to mainly always work, whereas in a Mark 3 they didn't.

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...But that's one of the problems with these discussions, what's good for one person might not be for the next.

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Quite. I've never found slam doors a hassle ever since I was old enough to reach the handle, but I'm always hacked off by the alternative, because you have to stand around scratching your arse waiting for the "door open" button to start working and then waiting for the door to actually respond after you've pressed it... and being made to wait for any kind of unnecessary delay such as is caused by slow-acting machinery always maximally cripples my nipples (I am similarly annoyed by my mobility scooter taking a few seconds to respond to the throttle instead of responding instantly, for example); slam doors didn't become a hassle until they started making you wait for the central locking thing to operate. And avoiding the occasional draught (which I rarely noticed anyway) in no way compensates for the loss of the ability to stick your head out and get some fresh air, look up and down the train if it stops out of course as if there might actually be some visible reason, and generally just not be sealed in.

I remember the first time I encountered the vestibule doors on a Mk 3. Hey wow, this train has doors that ping out of the way automatically just before you get to them! Cool! Just like the Enterprise.

Later, though, I grew to appreciate their tendency to revert to manual operation. Too often the unpleasantness of an overcrowded train became exacerbated by the incessant CLICK-whoosh-thump, CLICK-whoosh-thump as someone was crowded onto the edge of the pressure mat and it kept getting triggered every few seconds. Under such conditions it might as well have stayed open all the time anyway and it made for a pleasant reduction in the disturbance when it decided that that's what it would do anyway.

(I don't particularly regard that inappropriate triggering as a fault of the Mk 3, though, more as just another secondary consequence of the primary failing - not running enough/long enough trains that people don't have to cram in in the first place...)

The Mk3 vestibule doors had a tendancy to repeatedly trigger even if noone ( and noone's luggage! ) was anywhere near the pressure mat, certainly in earlier days. Not going to really hold that against them though. As I tended to walk down a HST fast ( to counter the rolling ) & had to stop and wait for the doors I didn't find them any more useful than having to stop & manually slide a door anyway. Walking down a HST with both hands full wasn't really something to attempt.

Pigeon said:

I've never found slam doors a hassle ever since I was old enough to reach the handle

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Can't say I agree with this at all, and I say that as an able-bodied 30 year old rugby player/gym nut. If you're carrying bags they're a pain, leaning out when also dealing with a tippy wheelie bag and a holdall was always awkward.
And I definitely wouldn't recommend leaning out of a moving train, given the multiple deaths!

I do kind of love the opening droplights- sat on said tippy wheelie bag in the vestibule of a packed GWR HST slipping through the west country on a beautiful summers day was quite a lovely experience, but there's a good reason why they're not around any more.

Being able to bash a button with your elbow is a lot easier when holding bags, or children (or get the kid to press the button!). Some people with reduced mobility simply can't lean out the train to open the door, whilst they might not have any issues with pressing a button.

The HST is great- but the game has moved on, and accessibility is a major part of that. Think about it this way- the VW Golf Mk.1 dates from the same sort of time period. It's rightly regarded as an iconic classic car, and I'd love a Mk.1 GTI. But to daily drive and commute in? No thanks. I'll take a new VW ID.3 electric thanks, and keep the GTI for fun on the weekends. Which is where the HST in unmodifed form should be- and is!

Right now, I'd have to put the Pendolino as the best high-speed train. They've revolutionised the WCML, they're comfortable and fast. They do definitely need refurbishing though, I'm just hoping Avanti don't ruin them!

Pigeon said:

but I'm always hacked off by the alternative, because you have to stand around scratching your arse waiting for the "door open" button to start working and then waiting for the door to actually respond after you've pressed it... and being made to wait for any kind of unnecessary delay such as is caused by slow-acting machinery always maximally cripples my nipples ... slam doors didn't become a hassle until they started making you wait for the central locking thing to operate.

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You fundamentally misunderstand the process involved - the delay is not in "slow-acting machinery" but rather the requirement that the driver or guard (as appropriate) confirm that the train is stopped in the correct position before unlocking the doors.

In some other countries - Germany being one - drivers are permitted to unlock the doors as soon as they are satisfied that the train will stop correctly, even if it hasn't yet done so. You will notice on such occasions that the door open buttons become active as soon as the driver gives the release and that if you press an active button while the train is still moving the door will open as soon as the train stops.

TRAX said:

Stadler is Swiss. And passenger forward views aren’t at all common in Germany, I’m not sure where you’ve seen this - unless small glass cab doors are what you’re thinking about (although unless you’re standing right behind the door, you won’t see much). If you’re thinking of a 100 % glass partition behind the driving cab as on the ICE 3, well that’s about the only train to have that in Germany.

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You have a forward view out of an ICE-T also (maybe only in First Class).
The original Fiat Pendolinos (ETR 470) also had a porthole into the driving cab through which you got a tunnel-vision view of the line ahead.

LNW-GW Joint said:

You have a forward view out of an ICE-T also (maybe only in First Class).
The original Fiat Pendolinos (ETR 470) also had a porthole into the driving cab through which you got a tunnel-vision view of the line ahead.

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Well yeah the ICE T is based on the ICE 3

XAM2175 said:

You fundamentally misunderstand the process involved - the delay is not in "slow-acting machinery" but rather the requirement that the driver or guard (as appropriate) confirm that the train is stopped in the correct position before unlocking the doors.

In some other countries - Germany being one - drivers are permitted to unlock the doors as soon as they are satisfied that the train will stop correctly, even if it hasn't yet done so. You will notice on such occasions that the door open buttons become active as soon as the driver gives the release and that if you press an active button while the train is still moving the door will open as soon as the train stops.

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I think the door open sequence starts as soon as train speed has dropped to not very much. So you save a few seconds. This is Berlin s-bahn.
I assume once the opening sequence has started the interlock stops the driver taking power or releasing the brakes. So they are 100% certain the train will stop in a few seconds.
But the infrastructure is lavish with long platforms so a stopping a few metres short or over doesn't matter.

Ken H said:

I think the door open sequence starts as soon as train speed has dropped to not very much. So you save a few seconds. This is Berlin s-bahn.
I assume once the opening sequence has started the interlock stops the driver taking power or releasing the brakes. So they are 100% certain the train will stop in a few seconds.
But the infrastructure is lavish with long platforms so a stopping a few metres short or over doesn't matter.

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Not only that, but with traditional RIC coaches (even those with modern looking doors) the doors just release automatically when the speed drops below 5km/h, no action is required to do this (and so the doors are released when the train stops at a signal).

DB have modified theirs to require driver release, but there are no doubt originals knocking around in other countries.

XAM2175 said:

You fundamentally misunderstand the process involved

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No, I don't, but "people dithering on" and "daft modern rule book cancer", while indeed being subjects about which I could rant on for ages, are characteristics of a set of people, not characteristics of a type of train, so they are of minimal relevance when it is types of train that are under discussion.

Manchester Metrolink does pretty well - you can press the button ahead of time and it will open when the tram stops and the doors are released. I've pressed the button when leaving the previous stop many a time, really handy little feature once you catch on to it!

Miss it on the Nottingham trams, I will say.

Always worth working on the little details, they can be pretty good value ways of increasing people's perception of your system. Find it crazy when at spanish-solution style bay platforms, guards don't open doors on both sides. Seems like a waste of potential.

I'd say the Bakerloo is often good for doors - especially when the driver is in a hurry and they open while the train hasn't quite stopped!

Pigeon said:

Quite. I've never found slam doors a hassle ever since I was old enough to reach the handle, but I'm always hacked off by the alternative, because you have to stand around scratching your arse waiting for the "door open" button to start working and then waiting for the door to actually respond after you've pressed it... and being made to wait for any kind of unnecessary delay such as is caused by slow-acting machinery always maximally cripples my nipples (I am similarly annoyed by my mobility scooter taking a few seconds to respond to the throttle instead of responding instantly, for example); slam doors didn't become a hassle until they started making you wait for the central locking thing to operate. And avoiding the occasional draught (which I rarely noticed anyway) in no way compensates for the loss of the ability to stick your head out and get some fresh air, look up and down the train if it stops out of course as if there might actually be some visible reason, and generally just not be sealed in.

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There's been some discussion regarding door buttons, but it's also missing the point if you ask me. Certainly you don't want to have doors opened before the driver has checked what's going on, which costs a little bit of time - but in my experience drivers are quite efficient at releasing doors.

But it's entirely possible to build a system where passengers can press the door button while the train is still moving, but the doors nevertheless won't open until the driver has released the doors (which as I've said isn't done until the train is stopped). That's how the vast majority of train doors in Switzerland work (at least that's the case on the IC2000 double-deck stock, ICN, Flirts, EC carriages, a bunch of the narrow gauge stock, and the more recently the modernised BPM's - the big exception is EW IV stock which has a handle of sorts to open the door, and that handle won't work until doors are released - and the EC stock can or could operate in a legacy RIC mode - and I haven't tested the Giruno or Twindexx yet).

TRAX said:

Well yeah the ICE T is based on the ICE 3

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To be more precise, the designs were developed in parallel.

James James said:

But it's entirely possible to build a system where passengers can press the door button while the train is still moving, but the doors nevertheless won't open until the driver has released the doors (which as I've said isn't done until the train is stopped). That's how the vast majority of train doors in Switzerland work (at least that's the case on the IC2000 double-deck stock, ICN, Flirts, EC carriages, a bunch of the narrow gauge stock, and the more recently the modernised BPM's - the big exception is EW IV stock which has a handle of sorts to open the door, and that handle won't work until doors are released - and the EC stock can or could operate in a legacy RIC mode - and I haven't tested the Giruno or Twindexx yet).

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The same functionality is also available on ÖBB’s double deck stock around Vienna.

James James said:

There's been some discussion regarding door buttons, but it's also missing the point if you ask me. Certainly you don't want to have doors opened before the driver has checked what's going on, which costs a little bit of time - but in my experience drivers are quite efficient at releasing doors.

But it's entirely possible to build a system where passengers can press the door button while the train is still moving, but the doors nevertheless won't open until the driver has released the doors (which as I've said isn't done until the train is stopped). That's how the vast majority of train doors in Switzerland work (at least that's the case on the IC2000 double-deck stock, ICN, Flirts, EC carriages, a bunch of the narrow gauge stock, and the more recently the modernised BPM's - the big exception is EW IV stock which has a handle of sorts to open the door, and that handle won't work until doors are released - and the EC stock can or could operate in a legacy RIC mode - and I haven't tested the Giruno or Twindexx yet).

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Best of all, on the new SOB Traverso units, there are stop request buttons at table seats in First Class. These are basically linked into the door system, so if you press them at a station, it will open the door from your seat.

Unless something has changed the driver doesn't release the doors on older Swiss LHCS (e.g. EW IV), rather they release automatically on both sides when the speed drops below 5km/h.

Possible I suppose that they have recently retrofitted the German system that requires driver release, though?

I think probably the hst or liner Azura (considering they are the only high speed trains I have been on)

Bletchleyite said:

Unless something has changed the driver doesn't release the doors on older Swiss LHCS (e.g. EW IV), rather they release automatically on both sides when the speed drops below 5km/h.

Possible I suppose that they have recently retrofitted the German system that requires driver release, though?

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If they have been converted, it's not recent. Here's a doc from 2013 describing various constellations of SBB carriages using full-locking, where 18-pole UIC cabling is what's used to provied full locking (and 13-pole is the mode where you can open doors up to 5km/h).

However in the past on some routes EW IV did operate mixed with Bpm and EW I/II carriages which could have used 13-pole cables, and in that case the whole train operates in degraded 13-pole mode. However that was banned by 2013, and was rare even before then (since most trains were already push-pull consists with only EW IV or IC2000 carriages - leaving very few trains as loco-hauled, and even fewer mixing EW IV with the older carriages). [Tangential note: the Bpm's all got upgraded, and EW I/II do have full locking albeit via VST cables but that's only used for push-pull EW I/II.]