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What makes a train look British?

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LNW-GW Joint

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I'm sure you know this, but it wasn't really a "decision" as such. More a combination of (a) what we were capable of building in the 1830s, coupled with (b) never having to rebuild following conflict, which deprived us of the opportunity to re-assess what was required.
Not forgetting that a significant number of early railways on the continent were built by British engineers and contractors (eg Thomas Brassey, who built Le Havre-Rouen, Orléans-Bordeaux and the Victor Emmanuel railway through Savoy among many others, including as far as present day Ukraine).
The first batch of steam engines for many lines came from the UK, notably the Robert Stephenson works at Newcastle.
Left hand running on much of the continent is also a legacy of those original lines.
 
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Ianno87

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Interesting thread.

I guess that as more "European" fleets start to come into the UK (such as the Stadlers and CAFs, plus eventually things like the HS2 stock), the line may "blur" increasingly from "traditional" British/UK designed. A good example would be modern tram networks, that look and feel very similar to European systems.

I always felt CAF units, particularly the 332s, didn't look that UK-ish (especially if you imagine the yellow front end removed, as early artists impressions had).


On a side note the 230 that has gone over to America looks right at home with it's orange paint job.
 

norbitonflyer

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More curved bodysides, compared with the slab-sided continental profile. Floor height much higher off the ground, thanks to our high platforms. This, together with the lower roof height, means the doors take up much more of the height of the body, and both they and the windows extend almost up to the roof.
 

rower40

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Do other railway administrations have loco numbers taking up the full bodyside? (I'm thinking class 66, or large-logo 50's in previous years.) Or is it a uniquely British thing to deter the shortsighted trainspotter from getting too close?
 

TRAX

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More curved bodysides, compared with the slab-sided continental profile. Floor height much higher off the ground, thanks to our high platforms. This, together with the lower roof height, means the doors take up much more of the height of the body, and both they and the windows extend almost up to the roof.
Windows that extend almost up to the roof ? On British trains ?
Huh, you should have a closer look at windows on Continental trains…
Windows on British trains are tiny…
 
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61653 HTAFC

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I always felt CAF units, particularly the 332s, didn't look that UK-ish (especially if you imagine the yellow front end removed, as early artists impressions had).
They certainly looked different, but I wouldn't say they struck me as "continental" (or at least, not the European continent!). Just much more modern than the austere styling of later BR stock (319s, 321s, etc.).
 

Trainguy12345

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I think the reason the stadler stock for east anglia looks like it’s from Europe is that it looks like Germany’s s stock
 

LeeLivery

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The 80x family looks modern British to me, but the Velero's - Continental. I can't figure out why, maybe it's the size, but it's not that noticeable until you're on the Midland concourse at St Pancras where you can really see the difference.

Interesting thread.

I guess that as more "European" fleets start to come into the UK (such as the Stadlers and CAFs, plus eventually things like the HS2 stock), the line may "blur" increasingly from "traditional" British/UK designed. A good example would be modern tram networks, that look and feel very similar to European systems.

I always felt CAF units, particularly the 332s, didn't look that UK-ish (especially if you imagine the yellow front end removed, as early artists impressions had).


On a side note the 230 that has gone over to America looks right at home with it's orange paint job.

Saying that, I was standing at the door of an Alstom Citadis NET Tram and I felt like I was on Line 2/9 of the Paris Metro. Then it occurred to me, being both Alstom, the body profile is clearly related to the MF01.

Yes, that's definitely one of the things, now you mention it.

The door layout, the different window sizes, articulated bogies, the internal finish - feels like a 'grown up' Dutch SLT. I never thought they'd feel as continental as they look in pictures. It's unlike the Class 70s which I instantly thought looked American in pictures, but in person, they don't really feel it.
 

Ianno87

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I do appreciate TPE putting the full European fleet number on the side of it's 397s/802s!
 

TRAX

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Saying that, I was standing at the door of an Alstom Citadis NET Tram and I felt like I was on Line 2/9 of the Paris Metro. Then it occurred to me, being both Alstom, the body profile is clearly related to the MF01.

The MF 01 is not an Alstom design though (it’s Avant-Première). But you are quite right.
 

Royston Vasey

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Definitely agree with floor/frame height and therefore door height being much higher in British trains due to our platforms. And you look at the underframe of an ICE compared to an IET, a much greater portion of the side view of the British train is underframe and equipment than the German train
 

Ianno87

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The front end of the Class 142 Pacers always put me in mind of an armoured train.

Was thinking about plonking a 142 on various European railways and assessing how out of place it would look!

142 at Berlin Hauptbahnhof anybody?


Always interesting to see new UK trains alongside their European counterparts at shows like Innotrans.
 

craigybagel

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I'm sure you know this, but it wasn't really a "decision" as such. More a combination of (a) what we were capable of building in the 1830s, coupled with (b) never having to rebuild following conflict, which deprived us of the opportunity to re-assess what was required.

Not forgetting that a significant number of early railways on the continent were built by British engineers and contractors (eg Thomas Brassey, who built Le Havre-Rouen, Orléans-Bordeaux and the Victor Emmanuel railway through Savoy among many others, including as far as present day Ukraine).
The first batch of steam engines for many lines came from the UK, notably the Robert Stephenson works at Newcastle.
Left hand running on much of the continent is also a legacy of those original lines.
All very true, and Britain has suffered a bit from being first. I do seem to recall reading however there was a decision made that Britain didn't need to even bother taking part in the Berne convention, never mind adopt the loading gauge that came from it. Again, with hindsight.....
 

XAM2175

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Do other railway administrations have loco numbers taking up the full bodyside? (I'm thinking class 66, or large-logo 50's in previous years.) Or is it a uniquely British thing to deter the shortsighted trainspotter from getting too close?

The State Rail Authority of New South Wales took a real shine to that idea too:

419b7bb0c9de04a8761ec5586fe74292.jpg

(Bill Hough image via RailPictures.net)

One of their successor companies (the Freight Rail Corporation of New South Wales, to be extra precise) then decided in the early '90s that this wasn't quite enough, and so adopted a livery that is comprised only of the loco's number :lol:

23573660313_01405c3152_b.jpg

(Mark Carter image via Flickr.com)

I do appreciate TPE putting the full European fleet number on the side of it's 397s/802s!
Only because the current Vehicle Numbering rules require it! You should see it on anything that received fleet approval to enter service after 1 Jan 2018.

Stadler however have also put the Vehicle Keeper Marking ("GB-MRE" in this case) on the 777s for Merseyrail, which is above and beyond domestic requirements.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The State Rail Authority of New South Wales took a real shine to that idea too:

419b7bb0c9de04a8761ec5586fe74292.jpg

(Bill Hough image via RailPictures.net)

One of their successor companies (the Freight Rail Corporation of New South Wales, to be extra precise) then decided in the early '90s that this wasn't quite enough, and so adopted a livery that is comprised only of the loco's number :lol:

23573660313_01405c3152_b.jpg

(Mark Carter image via Flickr.com)


Only because the current Vehicle Numbering rules require it! You should see it on anything that received fleet approval to enter service after 1 Jan 2018.

Stadler however have also put the Vehicle Keeper Marking ("GB-MRE" in this case) on the 777s for Merseyrail, which is above and beyond domestic requirements.
Neither of those are as ridiculous as the original livery of 57601. More legible though, I'll grant you!
 

70014IronDuke

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With regard to steam locos....British: smooth and well-proportioned exterior (in the main) - Continental: most of the insides on the outside!

This is so true. If you look at the lines of, say, the SECR L1 4-4-0, they are so simple and clean, exquisitely well-proportioned - such a handsome locomotive. On the continent, even a Prussian P8/DB 038 - which are beauties in their own right - is festooned with air pumps, reservoirs and gubbins by comparison. Ditto the Austrian 77 pacific tanks, another of my favourite continental designs.*

As for eg an A4 or an original Bulleid pacific (yes, and even one of those 4-cylinder Swindon 4-6-0 thingies, just don't tell @Taunton I said so) - there is simply no comparison.

I think I must have become 'culturally transformed' to continental steam after the demise of 'our' stuff in 68. If you look at an SNCF 141R, it really is a carbuncle cluster on wheels - but in 1970 I couldn't get enough of them.

* Late thought: special mention must be made of the CP Henschel 4-6-0s - the ones without the smoke deflectors, which definitely tried to pretend they were British. :)
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the reason the stadler stock for east anglia looks like it’s from Europe is that it looks like Germany’s s stock

They look very much like the Swiss FLIRTs - both GA and TfW have a very similar livery to SBB, too.

To me the platform level taper is one giveaway, Continental stock tends to be slab sided. Plus other bits where the body tapers in, e.g. the top and vehicle ends (recent CAF stock doesn't taper at body ends which I think gives a European look). Some Scandinavian stock is tapered (but bigger than UK) and looks a bit British as a result, as do those old DMUs Nederlandse Spoorwegen used to have, which looked rather like ungangwayed 158s in shape.
 

Trainguy12345

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For me the defining features for a commuter train in the uk is the gangway ,the yellow front ,the usually flat front, and the usually 3 or 2 light cluster
 

NSE

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I think a lot of it is psychological. Stick Southern or SouthEastern livery on a foreign train and it’d start to become more British in your minds eye.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There are plenty of similarities between modern UK and continental stock.
You can tell a Pendolino's heritage whether it's operated by Avanti, CP, ČD, PKP and the rest.
Those silly Alstom table lamps in First get everywhere....

All new UK stock is derived from European (or Japanese) underlying design and functionality.
Class 80x is hardly "British" when it comes from all over including construction in Japan and Italy.
UK regulations and practice determine how different the original train needs to be to meet the UK spec.
The Eurostar 373 is an Alstom TGV adapted to UK (and Channel Tunnel) conditions.
Their 374 is a Siemens Velaro ditto.
The Avanti Pendolino is a mixed British/Italian/French design (and even the German ICE has French/Italian content).

It doesn't really work the other way round (ie there are no "UK" train designs adapted for the continent).
The class 66 clones might be a rare example (a US/Canadian design heavily adapted for the UK, and then replicated on the continent).
 

AY1975

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This is less common nowadays but in the BR era and in the early days of privatisation 1st class and non-smoking accommodation was usually denoted by window labels whereas in mainland Europe the class of accommodation (and whether it was a smoking or non-smoking compartment or coach in the days of smoking accommodation) is normally denoted by signs on the coach bodyside next to each door and inside the coach (on each compartment door in side corridor coaches and above or next to the door at the end of the saloon in saloon coaches).
 
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