AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Essex police:
BBC leading with it now:
Dreadful news.
BBC leading with it now:
Dreadful news.
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MP Sir David Amess has been stabbed and killed
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scotrail158713
Established Member
Regardless of politics that's absolutely awful news arising this afternoon
roversfan2001
Established Member
Unthinkable that this has somehow happened again. The fact that two democratically elected representatives have been murdered during the course of their duties in the past 6 years is mind-boggling.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
And of course there was Stephen Timms who was stabbed by an Islamist nutjob about ten years ago. Thankfully he survived.
I had a news alert on my phone earlier to say that he'd been stabbed, but ITV have just broadcast a short bulletin to say that he'd died.
Nobody should have to face this in the course of doing their job.
Nobody should have to face this in the course of doing their job.
nlogax
Established Member
Words fail me. This country has gone quite mad. Another awful, awful day.
Eyersey468
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Words fail me too. Nobody should have this in the course of their job
brad465
Established Member
Very sad news, with regard to above I strongly believe this is what happens when divisions are stoked like they have. Only deep societal and political reforms will turn things around, but that's another discussion for another time.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Terrible to hear this news. We are supposed to live in a civilised western democracy. We can disagree with people and thier politics ( and god knows i do) but this kind of violence against elected public servants is just wrong.
We are in a bad place as a country.
We are in a bad place as a country.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
No doubt there will be investigations into the perpetrator to work out what motivated them. In the case of the scumbag who murdered Jo Cox those "motivations" became quite apparent very quickly, but this individual doesn't seem to have been quite as open about his cause during his attack.
Whatever his motivation, it does not justify such violent action. Mental health is likely to have played some sort of a role (as it did in the Cox case) but whether that is significant enough to have legal implications is another thing. Insanity has a very specific and narrow legal definition that's quite different to the everyday use of language.
Whatever his motivation, it does not justify such violent action. Mental health is likely to have played some sort of a role (as it did in the Cox case) but whether that is significant enough to have legal implications is another thing. Insanity has a very specific and narrow legal definition that's quite different to the everyday use of language.
So awful while a national headline as he was a MP.
Had the victim been a local resident then probably only reported in the local and maybe regional news. A few weeks ago this happened in the small rural town 10 or so miles from the village where is was brought up. I was shocked. I just can not get my head around how anyone can bring themself to do this.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Telegraph reporting the man arrested is “Somali”.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Totally agree with all of that. A very sad day
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EDIT: At 20:47pm:
BBC now reporting something similar ("British national who initially appears to be of Somali heritage")
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brad465
Established Member
Apparently he's a British national with Somalian heritage, while the stabbing has now been declared a terrorist incident, with "a potential motivation linked to Islamist Extremism":
Sir David Amess killing was terrorism, police say
The fatal stabbing of Tory MP Sir David Amess has a potential link to Islamist extremism, say detectives.
www.bbc.co.uk
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Not exactly happy with the media’s (unintentional?) dog whistle about him being Somali, it seems to be not exactly central to the story.
His motivations and convictions will be though.
His motivations and convictions will be though.
Seems just be stated merely as a way generating clicks/likes/retreats.
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Exactly. From what it appears he was a British national. What does his heritage have to do with it in this case - along with so many others, he was likely radicalized in this country. Maybe it's time to start dealing with why that keeps happening, and not treating Islamism as something that only happens with "foreign" people.
Starting with the mostly foreign owned media which insites hatred in the red top dailies.
Nearly everytime I read a paper headline its headline is designed to bring anger to a story and create a situation, so I dont read them. Sadly many do, and influence those in society around them with their own behaviour.
Part of the reason why the story is down playing this guys heritage, is the aggressive responders in our midst who may read it then react to it.
The nation as a whole has swathes of society who are polarised and extremist. Religion has grown for decades, but Brexit brought out the worst of it, Covid hasnt helped and the current economic / inflation problems we have are going to bring more of it.
The British dailies have culturally grown on incitement for 250 years, with stories designed to aggressively motivate readers into action against a common enemy, followed by mobilisation of forces to ships and hence take war to the world. In the last 70 years weve about faced, retracted from the global stage, but maintained the narrative in the headlines creating a nation of aggressive but not battle ready natives polarising their communities.
Going woke will not change that, the behaviour of the country needs to refocus to take that negative energy into something productive.
Changing societal behaviour starts with the message, and its the media that delivers it… so thats where blame, influence and potential to change it all stems from… we need leadership now to enforce it.
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
How is merely stating that he is of Somali heritage a dog whistle? That seems to me to be simply providing a possibly-relevant piece of information about who the suspect is. It's not really any different in principle from the way the media has indicated that he is male and mentioned his approximate age - two pieces of information that no-one seems to have objected to.
If his grandparents were from Salford, rather than Somali, would it make people think differently of him ?
I’ll counter that media narrative with another British Somali… one that won several gold medals for Britain, including Olympic & world records.. but the media plays down his heritage… if you dont know who I mean, and need to google it.. then QED to my point about the media.
its all about how the media wants to incite the reader.
same to for those blocking roads, . Giving publicity to extremists is giving sweets to children, it just encourages more extremism..someone will eventually run one of them over.
imo the best response to this event is not to give any publicity to the perputrator at all, nothing..not a name, place or reason..… starve the headline, just publish the victim reaction and the prison sentence
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Busaholic
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What I think is of interest in what has been publically stated is that, though two addresses in London have been searched, there's no mention of any property in or near the Southend West constituency, which perhaps indicates that the social media advertising of the MP's surgery led to it just happening to be Sir David Amess being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I very much doubt that any of the MP's comments on Islamic politics or religion (if indeed there were any) would have led to him being individually selected for this vile act. Now, if Sir Teddy Taylor had lived on and continued to be a Southend MP that might have been a different matter, because he once stoked controversy in his party (not an isolated incidence, it has to be said) by suggesting that the then Western preference for the Sunni side of Islam to be dominant might be replaced by looking more favourably on the Shias.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
More to the point, if the suspect had been from Salford, and that fact had come to light early on and been mentioned by the media, would you have objected to them providing the information? I'm going to hazard a guess that you wouldn't. Likewise, I'm going to hazard a guess that if it had turned out he had come from the USA or Germany or Canada, then almost no-one would have objected to the media providing that information. So what's special about Somalia?
I understand the logic behind that, but the problem is that, if you want to figure out ways to make this kind of attack less likely in the future, then you need to understand the motives behind the current attack. Trying to hide the motives isn't exactly going to help there. (Though maybe trying to avoid specifically using the person's name too much in order to avoid giving them too much publicity might work).
I think it's relevant to try ascertain a motive and it's reasonable to surmise that this is some form of Islamic extremism (although we need the whole background story of the perpetrator) similar to the Stephen Timms stabbing in 2010. I agree that the 'Somalian heritage' may be an accurate descriptor of the perpetrator although arguably it is not necessarily relevant whether he is homegrown or has recently come to Britain even though we need to find out how he has been radicalised.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I don't think anyone really does that, not least the media. The 7/7 attackers were all UK nationals too.
Reporting the perpetrator's heritage may not be directly related, but nor should mentioning it be taboo. Most people are smart enough to know that just because someone is from a certain background, it doesn't mean they are wholly representative of that background.
Would the media be saying things like "It's believed that the suspect was of Salford heritage"? I very much doubt it.
Problem is that most atrocities (like this) aren't committed by most people. I wouldn't be totally surprised if some far-right nutters go and target the Somali community if that fact is emphasized.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Well, let's take the Telegraph, since that's the paper that was first quoted in this thread as reporting the Somali connection: On a quick google, I easily came across:
Telegraph said:
(link)
Telegraph said:
(link) [*]
So I'd say your answer is that, yes, the media do say where a suspect is from when it's somewhere in the UK. So, once again, if the media do basically the same thing when the place turns out to be Somalia, it suddenly becomes a 'dog-whistle' because.....?
And if you didn't say where the person is from, those same far right nutters may well just go and target the nearest Mosque anyway, as soon as they hear about the possible connection to Islamic extremism. The problem here is with the far right 'nutters' who will mindlessly seek revenge on innocent people. It's an awful problem, but the solution in a democracy is rather obviously to deal with those far right extremists appropriately (and to provide suitable protection to people who may be at risk), not to hide information that is relevant to major news stories.
[*] I think it's just a coincidence that the two stories that cropped up first both happened to be in West Sussex
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
What could it possibly be? What sort of place does Somalia have in the public's imagination? How are British Somalis viewed in public discourse here, especially in relation to extremist and violent crime?
What next? A bank goes bankrupt, people's savings disappear, and the Morning Star factually reports the bank's owners are "Jews".
There's a fine line for the media to tread between publishing details which satisfy the public's curiosity and not stoking existing divisions. Yes, the public will find out in the end - and deserve a realistic profile of the suspect, who it now turns out is a British national anyway - but releasing the information on the day it happened when a lot of people were very angry wasn't especially responsible.
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