National Express Coaches Discussion

For some history, the 550 did go via Birmingham for a while. About 7 years or so ago, it was Liverpool, Chester/Warrington then straight to Milton Keynes (with rest break at Norton Cannes) then into London. The route then got put into Birmingham and I think Milton Keynes removed I'd say about 3-4 years ago. Since then, Heathrow got added pre Covid.

I believe the pre Covid timetable ended up as Liverpool, Chester/Warrington, Birmingham, Heathrow, London or something thereabout



I'd love to see the 550 return to Chester. the new 551 replacement via Hanley takes longer and the fares if you want to go to Hanley are more expensive than going to Birmingham. Very strange.

Some other routes have understandable decline as NatEx won't put the busy trips back on (Hint 381 now 174 peak trip to Manchester AM, return PM hint), has a booking engine which refused to accept some towns exist despite the bus stopping and timetables showing (hint Abergele hint) and refusing to try and get at least some people on the bus by taking advantage of extremely busy corridors which often have more than overcrowded trains (hint Chester to North Wales Coast). Once hourly, quite fast routes are now replaced with less frequent runs taking longer (hint 060 Liverpool to Leeds, was hourly plus the 061 via the Airport. 060 scrapped, only the 061 or whatever it is now exists and takes longer via Manchester Airport rather than

That would be my explanation as to why some things are being strange. NatEx is being strange and so people are responding as such. You could probably add to that, not taking advantage of dead mileage to get more destinations at basically no cost (Selwyns Runcorn could stop at Runcorn and/or John Lennon Airport. Possibly Set down only, on request to Manchester Airport for Selwyns Sharston routes, use up dead miles, nice and cheap trip to run. there will be more of course)
I feel that NatEx just isn't as good as it once was. Not taking advantage of opportunities and focussing on a few places and stuff everyone else. Add to that, some operators aren't the best. One in particular, I always had issues, Wifi never showed up and if it did, it didn't work. Never had the VUER stuff even though it was advertised.
In my experience, the NX customer service hasn't helped. On par with Arriva I would say. You never get through to anyone with half a braincell and always get a bare basic standard reply which seems to have been selected by artificial intelligence and can have no relevance to the actual enquiry.


If NX looked at one or a few of these things, that could help push the numbers up. Numbers won't just flock back to the areas which they have abandoned. They will have to do some work to win people back on the reduced timetables which are limiting where people can go and opportunities where people could pick the coach, they aren't doing because it simply isn't fast or frequent like it used to be. The exception being a few key corridors which are on normal or close to normal pre Covid timetables combined with a lot of cheaper fares due to Flixbus.

Does anybody have a current up to date list of which operators run which National Express coach routes?

From searching on this forum i have found this list here:


Which was located on this thread here:


However the list is almost three years old so a lot has since changed so i was just wondering if anyone had a current up to date list?

Try - Sheffield Omnibus Enthusiasts Society (SOES)

Web site - http://www.sheffieldomnibus.uk/fleet-lists.html

Surreyman said:

Try - Sheffield Omnibus Enthusiasts Society (SOES)

Web site - http://www.sheffieldomnibus.uk/fleet-lists.html

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Thank you. That is perfect. It is interesting to see that National Express seem to be operating a lot more by themselves than they used to. It used to just be a few airport services but now it seems that National Express directly run quite a lot.

capitalconnect said:

Thank you. That is perfect. It is interesting to see that National Express seem to be operating a lot more by themselves than they used to. It used to just be a few airport services but now it seems that National Express directly run quite a lot.

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Certainly making good use of their own depots and subsidiaries Woods, Lucketts, Clarkes and Kings Ferry on that list - and even subsidiaries of the subsidiaries, with Worthing and Solent appearing in their own right. But at the moment it's worth noting that driver shortages and sickness are leading to all sorts of fill-in hires from even more companies, often at short notice.

capitalconnect said:

Thank you. That is perfect. It is interesting to see that National Express seem to be operating a lot more by themselves than they used to. It used to just be a few airport services but now it seems that National Express directly run quite a lot.

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That list is way out of date. We haven’t operated Coventry for ages now. It’s actually decreased massively over the past few weeks. National express themselves have gave up operating Manchester, Swansea, Cambridge (soon to go), Southampton and Poole and Great Yarmouth. I don’t really count their subsidiaries as “owned ops”. Neither do the company.

National express are losing drivers left right and centre to HGV and logistics right now. 15 are leaving this month alone. Recruitment has fallen to a trickle. Major panic at Start Hill Depot and Birmingham HQ!!

Something to note is that Skills Coaches have put their 2016 Levantes up for sale, maybe means Woods are encroaching

I see the 040 route on the M3. I believe that is Bristol to London. Is this the regular route or a diversion off the M4?

route101 said:

I see the 040 route on the M3. I believe that is Bristol to London. Is this the regular route or a diversion off the M4?

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M4 closures around Slough

cnjb8 said:

Something to note is that Skills Coaches have put their 2016 Levantes up for sale, maybe means Woods are encroaching

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Isn't there a 5 year (or so!) age limit for NatEx vehicles?

route101 said:

I see the 040 route on the M3. I believe that is Bristol to London. Is this the regular route or a diversion off the M4?

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M4 Heathrow weekend closures. The diversion is awful so it’s usually quicker to use a316 to the m3 then leave at junction 6 and follow signs for reading back to the m4.

capitalconnect said:

Does anybody have a current up to date list of which operators run which National Express coach routes?

From searching on this forum i have found this list here:

http://nebula.wsimg.com/c407fd45f816a115b35ad44aaf60e79f?AccessKeyId=8B7A174C4DD908996CD8&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Which was located on this thread here:

What coach operators currently operate which National Express and Megabus and Citylink coach routes?

Good morning. Does anyone here know how to find out which National Express and Megabus and Citylink coach routes are run by which coach operator? From what i understand most of the National Express and Megabus and Citylink coach routes are contracted out to other private coach operators in a...

www.railforums.co.uk

However the list is almost three years old so a lot has since changed so i was just wondering if anyone had a current up to date list?

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East Yorkshire has 3x 561 journeys to London 2 from Hull via York and Leeds and 1 from Bradford, the 152 which is Hull to Birmingham via Lincoln and Nottingham and the 451 which is Hull to London via Lincoln and Nottingham.

hst43102 said:

Isn't there a 5 year (or so!) age limit for NatEx vehicles?

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7 years although everything already on the network has been given an extra year due to the shutdown. A lot of coaches barely turned a wheel for over a year.

hst43102 said:

Isn't there a 5 year (or so!) age limit for NatEx vehicles?

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There have been no new arrivals to replace them, also I think it’s seven years

What are the rules or laws on passenger breaks? I had driver on National Express 404 service, while taking passenger break at Taunton Deane services, few weeks back, say that legally they have to give passengers a break, and couldn’t use the break to make up time if late, I thought breaks, apart from drivers legal breaks, were discretionary, I know Megabus dont have breaks like national Express do, but may stop for cigarette break at stops, or when drivers change over.

So are comfort breaks for passengers a legal requirement, or something just written in contracts? Personally if running late, I am quite happy if the driver misses out the comfort break and gains back time.

cambsy said:

What are the rules or laws on passenger breaks? I had driver on National Express 404 service, while taking passenger break at Taunton Deane services, few weeks back, say that legally they have to give passengers a break, and couldn’t use the break to make up time if late, I thought breaks, apart from drivers legal breaks, were discretionary, I know Megabus dont have breaks like national Express do, but may stop for cigarette break at stops, or when drivers change over.

So are comfort breaks for passengers a legal requirement, or something just written in contracts? Personally if running late, I am quite happy if the driver misses out the comfort break and gains back time.

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Not as far as I know, the 561 and 451 journeys we operate don't have any scheduled breaks in them.

cambsy said:

What are the rules or laws on passenger breaks? I had driver on National Express 404 service, while taking passenger break at Taunton Deane services, few weeks back, say that legally they have to give passengers a break, and couldn’t use the break to make up time if late, I thought breaks, apart from drivers legal breaks, were discretionary, I know Megabus dont have breaks like national Express do, but may stop for cigarette break at stops, or when drivers change over.

So are comfort breaks for passengers a legal requirement, or something just written in contracts? Personally if running late, I am quite happy if the driver misses out the comfort break and gains back time.

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Yes, Megabus don't usually provide breaks. Did provide a break once on a London to Glasgow overnight.

National Express show them in the timetable, either a services or a bus station.

More stories of National Express cutting back the bits of its network that provide services off the beaten track.

I guess it isn't really surprising that they are taking the opportunity to build a new, leaner network.

National Express axes Lincolnshire coach service to London

By Gemma Gadd
Wednesday, 20th October 2021, 5:19 pm

A National Express coach service to London has been permanently axed - leaving many in Lincolnshire without a direct bus to the capital.

The 449 London to Hull service ran daily, stopping at Peterborough, Boston, Spalding, Skegness and Mablethorpe.

The company temporarily suspended the service during the national Covid lockdowns - but now says it will not be reinstating it.

A spokesman for National Express said: “Over the past 18 months, all National Express coach services were suspended twice in response to national lockdowns.

“Since restarting in March, we have been rebuilding our coach network, adding routes and increasing frequency as customer demand grows.

“The 449 London to Hull service which stopped at Mablethorpe, Skegness, Boston, Spalding, and Peterborough, ceased operating in March 2020 and we do not have any plans to reinstate it in the near future.

“We appreciate some people will be disappointed by this, however, we will continue to review our routes and services regularly and where there is sufficient demand to offer a viable service, we will do so.”

The news is a double blow for those in Lincolnshire who used to rely on the convenient coach service. Before the pandemic, in November 2019, the company confirmed it was axing its 448 service to London Victoria, which stopped at other Lincolnshire towns including Horncastle, Coningsby, Woodhall Spa, Sleaford, Bourne and Market Deeping on its way to the capital.

At the time, National Express said the decision was based on passenger figures which were ‘no longer viable to keep the service running’.

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JonathanH said:

More stories of National Express cutting back the bits of its network that provide services off the beaten track.

I guess it isn't really surprising that they are taking the opportunity to build a new, leaner network.

National Express axes Lincolnshire coach service to London

A National Express coach service to London has been permanently axed - leaving many in Lincolnshire without a direct bus to the capital.

www.lincolnshireworld.com

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I was one of the drivers on the 449 and we are all surprised they haven't reinstated a service to Peterborough from London as that section of the route was very busy

It shows how skewed public transport is that the removal of the only public transport from Boston, Spalding, Skegness and Mablethorpe to London (as well as a useful link from those towns to the city of Hull) passes without much attention - whilst there's a lot of discussion about how poor old Bristol is "only" going to have direct trains to one London terminus (Paddington) with the removal of the handful of trains a day to Waterloo

If we were serious about "connecting Left Behind towns" and all of those other warm words that people chuck about like social mobility then there'd be outrage about these towns losing their only London service - but we seem resigned to a world where coach services have to sustain themselves commercially but train routes are deeply subsidised

Obviously this won't be the only such link that National Express will be removing (and I'm not commenting on how busy they are), but it seems to sum up our attitude to public transport - coach services wither and die because they are reliant upon "farebox" income whilst train services don't have the same commercial imperative (which is why most of the rail network will continue unchanged but National Express are forced to focus more on the routes that Megabus/ Flix compete on and abandon the routes to towns well beyond Britain's motorway network)

/rant

tbtc said:

If we were serious about "connecting Left Behind towns" and all of those other warm words that people chuck about like social mobility then there'd be outrage about these towns losing their only London service - but we seem resigned to a world where coach services have to sustain themselves commercially but train routes are deeply subsidised

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Rail services or rather preventing the withdrawal of hopelessly uneconomic rail services has become a fixation of politicians and the public since the immediate aftermath of Dr Beeching.

What is even more worrying is the Restore Your Railway Fund where unbelievably large amounts of public money will be spent on restoring some uneconomic rail links where for a fraction of the cost a high quality frequent bus / coach service could be provided.

tbtc said:

It shows how skewed public transport is that the removal of the only public transport from Boston, Spalding, Skegness and Mablethorpe to London (as well as a useful link from those towns to the city of Hull) passes without much attention - whilst there's a lot of discussion about how poor old Bristol is "only" going to have direct trains to one London terminus (Paddington) with the removal of the handful of trains a day to Waterloo

If we were serious about "connecting Left Behind towns" and all of those other warm words that people chuck about like social mobility then there'd be outrage about these towns losing their only London service - but we seem resigned to a world where coach services have to sustain themselves commercially but train routes are deeply subsidised

Obviously this won't be the only such link that National Express will be removing (and I'm not commenting on how busy they are), but it seems to sum up our attitude to public transport - coach services wither and die because they are reliant upon "farebox" income whilst train services don't have the same commercial imperative (which is why most of the rail network will continue unchanged but National Express are forced to focus more on the routes that Megabus/ Flix compete on and abandon the routes to towns well beyond Britain's motorway network)

/rant

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Politicians are willing to use train services, consequently there's never any question about the costs of new lines, stations etc. However they rarely (I suspect never) use coach services so they really dont care about them. Another example of the issues this causes is that coach services have to pay the full tax on fuel when they're sometimes competing with air services that don't pay any!

The Northern section of the 449 wasn't that well used, what put people off travelling was the amount of time the service took to get to London, but it is a shame that Boston, Stamford and Peterborough are losing their London link

We are, of course, discussing a once-a-day coach service to London that may or may not have been at a convenient time for potential users. Was it ever any different?

The thing about these cutbacks though is that there is no clear way in which the market would ever restore them. There will never be a campaign for former users to get their service restored because memories that there was once a coach service aren't quite the same as closed railway lines that leave their mark on the countryside.

Presumably the former users end up having to rely on the coach trips offered by local tour companies, bus travel to a railhead and obviously cars.

I am interested as to what National Express see their eventual coach network as being, given all the renumberings and the emergence of a reduced network. Clearly it isn't just in rural locations where there are cut backs. I note that, for example, the overnight 435 no longer extends beyond Newcastle to Ashington, Blyth and Whitley Bay - similarly the overnight 421 got renumbered as 423 and cut off in Liverpool instead of going through to Preston and Blackpool. Then there are all those 1xx routes that are the bits of the previous network that National Express think they can sustain.

Titfield said:

for a fraction of the cost a high quality frequent bus / coach service could be provided

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Isn't the point though that often where these railways are restored, there are already frequent bus services and the railway can bring quicker journeys on the corridor?

The point with the kind of infrequent coach services that National Express appear to be abandoning is that they are often a once a day trips that didn't sit on top of similar local coach links, but on top of bus services that need to call at far more stops. Whose call is it whether these connections are important?

Re National Express cutbacks, I note from the latest timetable that the 175 service, which used to be Bangor to Leeds is cutback at both ends and is now Llandudno to Manchester, leaving Llandudno at 0925 and returning at 1520.
Presumably this is still the Llew Jones coach, but now using the A470 rather than the A5 for positioning moves.
Does anyone know if this simple journey comprises the whole rota for this coach, with a 3-hour layover in Manchester, or is it utilised in Manchester for something else?

Welshman said:

Re National Express cutbacks, I note from the latest timetable that the 175 service, which used to be Bangor to Leeds is cutback at both ends and is now Llandudno to Manchester, leaving Llandudno at 0925 and returning at 1520.
Presumably this is still the Llew Jones coach, but now using the A470 rather than the A5 for positioning moves.
Does anyone know if this simple journey comprises the whole rota for this coach, with a 3-hour layover in Manchester, or is it utilised in Manchester for something else?

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Delay recovery and legal break I guess. Bit surprised they didn't keep going to Leeds as Llew Jones had a Leeds to London run and it all interworked somehow (Bangor to Leeds then to London. London to Leeds then to Bangor)

National express really do seem to be favouring the south right now. You have routes like the 025, 032 and 035 that are all but deserted in the evening, yet still don’t get axed. Routes that were fairly well used have been axed, many permanently from the north.

So today in conference we told that passenger numbers in September were “significantly” down, recovered a little in October.

They're banking on a strong Christmas and near normality next year. Otherwise there will be more cuts….

So the university city of Bangor is dumped (further reducing NX's usefulness in North Wales), services from Hull are reduced, and places the size of Grimsby, Peterborough, Eastbourne, Salisbury and many more remain firmly snubbed completely by the increasingly-not-national network.

The cut-back 175 from Llandudno to Manchester is really quite bizarre, because although I understand the need for long-distance services to have reasonable journey times, the 175 now serves so few places in Wales where people might actually board and alight, I just don't see how they expect it to make any money.

But in good news, purely by chance I spot that service 460 is added to put Stratford-upon-Avon back on the map, two journeys daily linking it with London. I wonder, however, how many people in Stratford will ever know this or think to look into the labyrinthine NX website? I never see any advertising, press releases or promotion for NX services or any news when they change.

When I retired to North Wales 11 years ago, I seem to remember there were 2 National Express routes - Bangor to London and Bangor to Newcastle - both following the North Wales coast and picking-up at the various holiday camps along the way, along with the towns of Rhyl, Prestatyn and Flint. Now these three are excluded, the remaining truncated service from Llandudno to Manchester joining the A55 at Abergele to run non-stop to Birkenhead.

It does seem the present modified service is run for the convenience of the coach firm rather than any potential passengers. Omitting Bangor seems a particularly odd move considering the university population and the coming Christmas exodus and the return in January.

JonathanH said:

More stories of National Express cutting back the bits of its network that provide services off the beaten track.

I guess it isn't really surprising that they are taking the opportunity to build a new, leaner network.

National Express axes Lincolnshire coach service to London

A National Express coach service to London has been permanently axed - leaving many in Lincolnshire without a direct bus to the capital.

www.lincolnshireworld.com

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That's a shame but not a surprise. Pre-COVID I would use the 448/449 on a Sunday evening once a month to get from my mum's house in Louth to Grimsby or Cleethorpes to pick up the train home. It was the only public transport out of Louth on a Sunday. By the time the 448 had got to Louth, there'd be usually less than a dozen people left on it.

When it was the 448 the fare was £9.20, the once I go it as the 449 the fare was £18.20. Given that a taxi from Louth to Grimsby was £25 and that was door-to-door, I would have probably carried on getting a taxi if my visits hadn't been curtailed by the pandemic.

Welshman said:

When I retired to North Wales 11 years ago, I seem to remember there were 2 National Express routes - Bangor to London and Bangor to Newcastle - both following the North Wales coast and picking-up at the various holiday camps along the way, along with the towns of Rhyl, Prestatyn and Flint. Now these three are excluded, the remaining truncated service from Llandudno to Manchester joining the A55 at Abergele to run non-stop to Birkenhead.

It does seem the present modified service is run for the convenience of the coach firm rather than any potential passengers. Omitting Bangor seems a particularly odd move considering the university population and the coming Christmas exodus and the return in January.

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The removal of Bangor from the service is disappointing as having traveled on the 175 a number of times this year thanks to the unreliability of TFW services, there have always been passengers for Bangor, if not to the annoyance of the drivers who would much prefer to head south from Llandudno.

I agree that the service is a positioning service for Llew Jones onto the network, however the restored service failed to serve any of the popular stops from yesteryear, which has been a disadvantage to potential passengers. The 175 is not the only service to have this problem

In reference to the Manchester - Leeds leg of the service, if memory serves me right the full service to Leeds was withdrawn back in November 2017. It is to be noted that the 175 was the only link between Liverpool and Leeds until the last timetable change. From my journeys most passengers who boarded in Leeds/Bradford this year did not continue west of Birkenhead - Despite the long wait time at Liverpool. It wouldn’t suprise me if the buses would continue to operate to London. Possibly taking over a 550 diagram.

It’s also important to note that Llew Jones introduced 3x 65 Plate tri axle for these reintroduced service, and retired their 66 & 67 plate coaches to Rail and Private Hire work