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Rail staff working during the pandemic: was the risk massive?

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LoogaBarooga

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...sues-including-conductor-strike-action.215572

I'm not trying to win anyone over. My point is no one is really in a position to have a go at anyone else over the level of risk they were exposed to.

As far as everyone was concerned at the start of the pandemic there was a massive risk but all railway staff (except those who were shielding), were expected to come to work regardless.
 
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ComUtoR

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It was pretty scary at times going to work during the pandemic. First thing to remember was this was a pandemic, the world was slowly locked down and all advice was to stay indoors, no non essential travel, etc etc. Yet, we were told to carry on as normal. - Strike one for my mental health.

I came into work every day. There were people everywhere and in the early stages, nobody was masked. There were no cleaning regimes and mess rooms were slowly filling up with staff not being out on track working as the service was heavily cut back - Strike two for my mental health and strike one for actual health.

Working in a cab alone is a red herring. We were allowed to remove our masks if driving. Feel free for anyone to sneeze, cough and touch everything in the cabs. They weren't cleaned between Drivers. You just handed over your key (eventually this policy was changed) and carried on in a confined space with little ventilation and zero cleaning regime. - Strike... Yeah you can see where this is going.

I also discovered that many of my colleagues had personal issues. Wives and family members had serious medical issues, other Drivers had ill health and sadly, COVID spread like a very virulent disease in a global pandemic. 90% of my friends were sitting at home "safe" and I was out working. I got pinged. Many others got pinged. Getting pinged means you were in close contact with someone who tested positive. - My mental health took a serious nosedive. Thankfully I tested negative. Still, quite a few of my colleagues didn't.

Difficult to say what the main cause of the spread was but if I was at home, not going out, staying away from others. I don't think I would have been 'at risk'

ONE person thanked me for coming into work. We had a good conversation about working through the pandemic and she was very grateful that we were still out there driving trains. If it wasn't for her; I think I would have gone sick for a few months.
 

Richard Scott

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Wasn't just Railway staff, many people had to work. Admittedly we were all wondering how big the risk was but we got on with it. To be honest railway staff have less risk than many as they spend very little time with the same person so afraid think the title of this thread massively over exaggerated.
 

DustyBin

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Wasn't just Railway staff, many people had to work. Admittedly we were all wondering how big the risk was but we got on with it. To be honest railway staff have less risk than many as they spend very little time with the same person so afraid think the title of this thread massively over exaggerated.

I agree, it would be more accurate say “potential” or “unknown” risk. Unless CEV the risk was, as we now know, extremely small. If it’s a matter of principle then fair enough, however many other key workers (and non key workers for that matter) also faced the unknown in order to prevent the entire country grinding to a halt. Of course a little gratitude doesn’t go amiss but to say rail staff were at “massive risk” is rather hyperbolic.
 

Ianno87

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Surely that was part of the point of locking down - to keep those who still needed to go out as safe as possible.
 

yorkie

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Surely that was part of the point of locking down - to keep those who still needed to go out as safe as possible.
I thought the point of locking down was to slow the rate of spread to reduce the risk of the NHS being overwhelmed?

.. all advice was to stay indoors, no non essential travel, etc etc...
Indeed the messaging was appalling for our mental health.
I came into work every day. There were people everywhere and in the early stages, nobody was masked.
There was no reason for them to be, and the type of mask that would have actually been effective (FFP3 or similar) was unavailable at that time anyway (they are widely available now).

We then had about 12 months of the mass wearing of flimsy loose fitting masks, but that of course made no difference to infection rates; this is better documented in other threads though.

There were no cleaning regimes and mess rooms were slowly filling up with staff not being out on track working as the service was heavily cut back - Strike two for my mental health and strike one for actual health.

Working in a cab alone is a red herring. We were allowed to remove our masks if driving. Feel free for anyone to sneeze, cough and touch everything in the cabs. They weren't cleaned between Drivers. You just handed over your key (eventually this policy was changed) and carried on in a confined space with little ventilation and zero cleaning regime. - Strike... Yeah you can see where this is going.
Early on there was a lot of thought that spread could be from touching surfaces but this is no longer thought to be the case. Clearly, the messaging was inappropriate as it made a lot of people fearful and that was terrible for mental health for many of us.

I also discovered that many of my colleagues had personal issues. Wives and family members had serious medical issues, other Drivers had ill health and sadly, COVID spread like a very virulent disease in a global pandemic. 90% of my friends were sitting at home "safe" and I was out working. I got pinged. Many others got pinged. Getting pinged means you were in close contact with someone who tested positive. - My mental health took a serious nosedive. Thankfully I tested negative. Still, quite a few of my colleagues didn't.
The mental health of many of us took a nosedive for all sorts of reasons; for me, not being able to work as normal (for a period of time) was seriously harming my mental health

Difficult to say what the main cause of the spread was but if I was at home, not going out, staying away from others. I don't think I would have been 'at risk'
In theory you would not have been at risk from catching the virus if you never went anywhere and never had any other human contact, with everything delivered, but to do that from the day the virus arrived here to vaccination would have had a terrible toll on mental health, as well as being impractical for many people to do for so many reasons.
 
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Yew

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I said "part" of the point.
Would you be able to provide a contemporaneous source for that rationalisation? I don't remember much about 'lockdown to protect key-workers' being said at all.
 

43096

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I'm not trying to win anyone over. My point is no one is really in a position to have a go at anyone else over the level of risk they were exposed to.

As far as everyone was concerned at the start of the pandemic there was a massive risk but all railway staff (except those who were shielding), were expected to come to work regardless.
And no-one was travelling on the trains, so the risk was largely from other members of staff in places like messrooms.

There was not a "massive risk" - that's the fear factor that the Government, SAGE and the likes wanted you to have and that the media were only too happy to lap up and regurgitate. It really needs to be remembered that for the majority of people, Covid would be a fairly normal respiratory illness. Yes, some people will become seriously ill (or worse) and require hospitalisation, but that is not the majority of people. The media reporting of course didn't help people to understand what the real level of risk to them was, as the media report the extremes.
 

bramling

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I'm not trying to win anyone over. My point is no one is really in a position to have a go at anyone else over the level of risk they were exposed to.

As far as everyone was concerned at the start of the pandemic there was a massive risk but all railway staff (except those who were shielding), were expected to come to work regardless.

I’m not sure about massive risk, though one could certainly say unknown risk, especially with what was known at the time.

What seems to have got many backs up, and this is by no means confined to the railway, is a complete lack of thanks to those people who kept things moving, kept the lights on, kept the supermarkets stocked, etc etc. A lot of focus on the NHS, naff all for anything else, and in fact quite the opposite from Boris Johnson in particular.
 

seagull

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What seems to have got many backs up, and this is by no means confined to the railway, is a complete lack of thanks to those people who kept things moving, kept the lights on, kept the supermarkets stocked, etc etc. A lot of focus on the NHS, naff all for anything else

Agreed. I think there were several groups of key workers, including railway workers, who definitely were exposing themselves to a higher risk by having to work, for sure. The fact that from the word go it was considered fine to ask some people to carry on "as normal" because of their job, while paying others to stay safely at home, is I feel what meant the lockdown was always a farcical matter, and also caused some bitter division and resentment in our society, sadly. Exacerbated by the constant worshipping of the NHS as if it were some religion. I have no suggestion to make as to how it could have been handled in a better way, other than to feel that it probably could have been.

I would say that I don't feel railway workers were exposed to a massive risk, but certainly a higher one than many, and along with a lot of other key workers.
 

Dai Corner

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Do we know how many railway workers were hospitalised, or sadly died, after catching Covid at work compared to other groups?
 

greyman42

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Do we know how many railway workers were hospitalised, or sadly died, after catching Covid at work compared to other groups?
I would doubt it as we don't even know how many people died from Covid, full stop.
 

kkong

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I would say that railway staff were more at risk of catching Covid while going for their daily food shopping / other interactions with the public / their family than working train.

In the 1st class carriages on the ScotRail HSTs (which were out of bounds to passengers) it was quite common to see several ScotRail staff (guard + other staff travelling sitting together unmasked, chatting with each other in their "safe working zone".

Make of that what you will.
 

ComUtoR

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Do we know how many railway workers were hospitalised, or sadly died, after catching Covid at work compared to other groups?
Between March 9th and December 28th 2020 4 Male Train or Tram Drivers died and had Covid 19 registered as the cause of death.


Statistician's quote​

“Today’s analysis shows that jobs with regular exposure to COVID-19 and those working in close proximity to others continue to have higher COVID-19 death rates when compared with the rest of the working age population. Men continue to have higher rates of death than women, making up nearly two thirds of these deaths."

“As the pandemic has progressed, we have learnt more about the disease and the communities it impacts most. There are a complex combination of factors that influence the risk of death; from your age and your ethnicity, where you live and who you live with, to pre-existing health conditions. Our findings do not prove that the rates of death involving COVID-19 are caused by differences in occupational exposure.
 

kkong

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Between March 9th and December 28th 2020 4 Male Train or Tram Drivers died and had Covid 19 registered as the cause of death.

Of course, they could have caught the virus anywhere, not necessarily (or likely) at work.
 

ComUtoR

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Of course, they could have caught the virus anywhere, not necessarily (or likely) at work.

Which applies to everyone.

To be frank, I'm not sure why there is a desire to underplay risks (perceived or otherwise) and to downplay what everyone went through during this pandemic. I worked, it was hard and I appreciate everyone who went out there and put themselves at risk. Even if it was the smallest risk; it was still there. I also highly appreciate those who stayed indoors, did their part and helped mitigate against the further spread of the virus. Everyone had a part to play and I really hope that people take a better look at themselves instead of constantly looking at what others were doing.

I lost my Nan during COVID. I will never know if it played a part in her death and to be honest my only wish is that she went peacefully. A significant number of my colleagues lost friends and family to COVID. The pain and suffering that many of us all went through during COVID was very real. I posted to show how I was feeling and to highlight what some of us may have also gone through.
 

Dai Corner

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Between March 9th and December 28th 2020 4 Male Train or Tram Drivers died and had Covid 19 registered as the cause of death.



Taking the number of drivers as around 20,000 (ASLEF membership), 4 deaths equates to 20 per 100,000. That's about a tenth of the total rate for the UK to date which is over 200 per 100,000 population.

Edit: that includes the elderly who were most likely to die of Covid, so looking at the working population (see table 3 here), the rate amongst train drivers is lower than all but one category.
 
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ComUtoR

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This is an interesting graph which highlights the potential exposure of various occupations.

Train and Tram Drivers listed as 32,100 employees. Apologies to my industry colleagues. I've only been looking up the Drivers stats.
 

bramling

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Taking the number of drivers as around 20,000 (ASLEF membership), 4 deaths equates to 20 per 100,000. That's about a tenth of the total rate for the UK to date which is over 200 per 100,000 population.

Edit: that includes the elderly who were most likely to die of Covid, so looking at the working population (see table 3 here), the rate amongst train drivers is lower than all but one category.

The original post was for railway staff in general, and wasn’t specific to drivers. There seems to be a big variation in how conductors, for example, have been expected to work - with some places having parts of the train taped off, and at the other extreme others seem to have been handed a mask and essentially told to get on with it. Likewise station staff.
 
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Butts

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I would say that railway staff were more at risk of catching Covid while going for their daily food shopping / other interactions with the public / their family than working train.

In the 1st class carriages on the ScotRail HSTs (which were out of bounds to passengers) it was quite common to see several ScotRail staff (guard + other staff travelling sitting together unmasked, chatting with each other in their "safe working zone".

Make of that what you will.

Having travelled throughout the pandemic on The Railway in order to get to work I can concur with the above or a derivative of such.

On Scotrail for over a year you never saw a Guard they were hidden in the blocked off end portion of the Train combined with open barriers and a lack of gate line staff resulted in a fare dodging bonanza for the few travelling.

The Drivers are ensconced in their cabs and ticket staff behind glass.

So it was hardly risky compared to working in a supermarket where staff actually came into close proximity with customers.
 

stj

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Compared to others who had to work I would have thought most rail workers were low risk as many trains ran almost empty.
 

Bayum

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Unfortunately, there were many groups of brave men and women across society that had to work in order to support the NHS, allow movement of those that needed to work and to keep the important aspects of the country moving. Fairly or not, very few got the recognition they deserved.
 

ComUtoR

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Compared to others who had to work I would have thought most rail workers were low risk as many trains ran almost empty.

The sitting alone in a driving cab is only a small part of my job.
 

Richard Scott

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Unfortunately, there were many groups of brave men and women across society that had to work in order to support the NHS, allow movement of those that needed to work and to keep the important aspects of the country moving. Fairly or not, very few got the recognition they deserved.
We weren't going to war, the word brave is very overused. I went to work and got on with it. I don't consider myself brave, just doing a job. It's the job I chose so it's what I need to do irrespective of circumstances.
 

Eyersey468

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I also worked through, on the buses not trains. I agree about the lack of recognition for all key workers and the appalling messaging from government and the media.
 

TPO

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I’m not sure about massive risk, though one could certainly say unknown risk, especially with what was known at the time.

What seems to have got many backs up, and this is by no means confined to the railway, is a complete lack of thanks to those people who kept things moving, kept the lights on, kept the supermarkets stocked, etc etc. A lot of focus on the NHS, naff all for anything else, and in fact quite the opposite from Boris Johnson in particular.

Agreed. I think there were several groups of key workers, including railway workers, who definitely were exposing themselves to a higher risk by having to work, for sure. The fact that from the word go it was considered fine to ask some people to carry on "as normal" because of their job, while paying others to stay safely at home, is I feel what meant the lockdown was always a farcical matter, and also caused some bitter division and resentment in our society, sadly. Exacerbated by the constant worshipping of the NHS as if it were some religion. I have no suggestion to make as to how it could have been handled in a better way, other than to feel that it probably could have been.

I would say that I don't feel railway workers were exposed to a massive risk, but certainly a higher one than many, and along with a lot of other key workers.

Compared to others who had to work I would have thought most rail workers were low risk as many trains ran almost empty.

This.

The idea that nothing was done to quickly mitigate the risk is also rather disingenuous. The week before we went into lockdown (when we knew it was coming) I was working with train operators who very quickly put risk controls in place, I saw the lengths taken to make sure the basics actually happened- like sourcing cleaning materials and FFP2 masks for those most at risk (bearing in mind these items were like hens teeth in the early days). In some cases, staff didn't help themselves- I recall one place getting a large box of FFP2 masks- enough to last 3 weeks or so for the key staff- yet they all vanished within a couple of days due to pilfering. I also recall fitting/engineering staff scouring all sources for basics like blueroll (buying with own money then claiming back) so we could supply cab cleaning materials, and going to great lengths to obtain a ready-to-use cleaning fluid which was proven to be anti viral at a point where you just couldn't buy antiseptic cleaners. In many cases there was also a work through rosters to identify those at higher risk (e.g. told to shield, older than 60 etc) so we could avoid putting them in the front line (some went onto furlough topped up to full pay).

I similarly recall how we segregated mess rooms, limited numbers in rooms, and tried to get social distancing right- then the staff who ignored the instructions. We were fortunate in the first couple of months being dry and sunny so we could hold briefing sessions outside in bright sunlight, all at least 2 metres apart.

So I don't buy the idea that railway staff were at high risk or that the train operators didn't do anything. In the early days we all worked off the RDG Flu pandemic guidance note (an internal document so many people won't have seen it) as that was the best advice we had at the time.

There were some key workers who were higher risk than railway workers- and in some cases perhaps less well looked after. Care home staff, delivery staff, supermarket staff, food supply chain workers, utilities workers and refuse collectors come to mind. As do HGV drivers- although not mixing so much, the facilities for them dropped right off, only on a M-way service area was there a chance of a toilet being open and no hot food available. Railway workers are also rather well paid by comparison, I am not saying that's wrong but other workers are equally skilled yet faced a higher risk for much less pay and were more essential (we can more easily do without railways working than we could do without supermarkets and the food supply chain or energy distribution for example).

The railway supply chain also continued working, often in very challenging circumstances.

I am struggling to work out why there is such a rumination on "we were put at risk and not looked after" in parts of the rail sector. Those who complain might want to reflect that the govt has been massively subsidising the trains and in consequence they maintained a level of normal routine compared to many; as a contrast just look what has happened in aviation- pilots (who have had to pay for their training) now don't have work as pilots and are taking any work that comes.

It's now you see it I guess; as a small business owner who qualified for little assistance and saw my turnover drop by 50%, I was hit hard; yet I remember that I am one of the lucky ones, I retained 50% of turnover and came out the other side whereas many other small businesses were devastated as the govt didn't allow them to trade and offered assistance which was more words than substance. It's far better for my mental health to recognise that the glass is half-full rather than half-empty.

TPO
 

virgintrain1

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Got to say in my personal experience I felt incredibly lucky to be able to come to work as normal. Getting out the house, getting to see my colleagues many of them close friends, travel around the country, eat lunch in empty parks and all legal. I felt incredibly sorry for anyone locked up at home. Worst part was the low load factors. In the early days I used the announce in my welcome PAs if anyone fancies a chat please stop me on my way through. Some customers seemed to really appreciate some human interaction. Should add never felt the company pushed us into doing anything unsafe and we were on the whole treated like adults and told to make dynamic risk assessments. I was also able to report and identify to BTP record countyline runners as due to the low numbers they certainly stuck out! Having less to do onboard also gave me chance to blitz defect reporting and fixing. I can't imagine how badly my mental health would have been affected if I was furloughed. Again I should add this my personal experience!
 
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yorkie

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Which applies to everyone.

To be frank, I'm not sure why there is a desire to underplay risks (perceived or otherwise) and to downplay what everyone went through during this pandemic....
On the contrary; it was an attempt by some to overplay the risks which was always going to result in people - quite rightly - questioning what was being said.
 

maradona10

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In what way do you feel the risks have been overplayed for front line rail workers during a pandemic where catching virus may be fatal or passing it to family without even showing any symptoms may prove fatal for them?

*in response to previous post by yorkie*
 
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