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Why is the Integrated rail plan delayed?

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Glenn1969

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I still wish we could be put out of our misery re the fate of Phase 2b. As I have asked in other threads does anyone know when the IRP or the Transport department's net zero strategy will be published- I note the COP General debate in Parliament tomorrow so could it be then?
 
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snowball

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I still wish we could be put out of our misery re the fate of Phase 2b. As I have asked in other threads does anyone know when the IRP or the Transport department's net zero strategy will be published- I note the COP General debate in Parliament tomorrow so could it be then?
The budget is next Wednesday, 27 October. Most predictions in recent months have suggested the IRP will be published at roughly the same time. There was one report that it would be last Monday, 18th, but that hasn't happened.
 

snowball

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I still wish we could be put out of our misery re the fate of Phase 2b. As I have asked in other threads does anyone know when the IRP or the Transport department's net zero strategy will be published- I note the COP General debate in Parliament tomorrow so could it be then?
Birmingham Post now saying it's been put back again to "around" November 11, and furthermore it will not answer all the questions people have been expecting, but will kick some of them further down the road:

Long-awaited decisions about major rail projects including the HS2 high speed rail line are due to be published around mid-November.

The Department for Transport is expected to produce its Integrated Rail Plan for the Midlands and the north around November 11.
As I half-jokingly commented on Skyscrapercity two months ago:

I've noticed that the longer and more eagerly an official document has been awaited, the bigger a disappointment it usually is when eventually published.
 
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snowball

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That is a fantastic quote - may I reuse it please (I will not take credit for it of course?
Please do, I'll be flattered. (I use a different name on SSC - "wrinkly".)

Thanks to WestRiding on the NPR thread under "Speculative Ideas" for first posting the news of the latest delay.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It would be nice to know if the delay is because the whole strategy and funding is still being argued back and forth between the Treasury and DfT, or whether all the significant decisions have been made and the delay in publication is just administrative or part of the government's PR process for the budget/spending review.
Further delay feels like the former.
 

GRALISTAIR

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It would be nice to know if the delay is because the whole strategy and funding is still being argued back and forth between the Treasury and DfT, or whether all the significant decisions have been made and the delay in publication is just administrative or part of the government's PR process for the budget/spending review.
Further delay feels like the former.
I will try and find the quote and source but just read about 1 hour ago that it is allegedly a Number 10-11 spat again.

This was not the source I was thinking of but it essentially says the same


Here is my use of quote in twitter https://twitter.com/GRALISTAIR/status/1451537494659551236

and here from another source
 
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JamesT

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I edited my post to provide a fuller link from a different source.

Without getting political (or trying) surely Johnson is Sunak's boss and Johnson is also First Lord of the Treasury and minister for the Civil Service. He surely would win if he was serious.

Isn't it pretty much an eternal battle between all the other branches of government who want money to spend on their areas and the Treasury who are determined to make the books balance?
 

AM9

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I edited my post to provide a fuller link from a different source.

Without getting political (or trying) surely Johnson is Sunak's boss and Johnson is also First Lord of the Treasury and minister for the Civil Service. He surely would win if he was serious.
But Johnson's style is to bully somebody else into making the decision and calling it their own. Then he can stand back when it goes wrong.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I edited my post to provide a fuller link from a different source.
Without getting political (or trying) surely Johnson is Sunak's boss and Johnson is also First Lord of the Treasury and minister for the Civil Service. He surely would win if he was serious.
Maybe you can't see it in the US, but there is a BBC documentary series about the Blair/Brown years on at the moment, and it is amazing what power No 11 has to thwart the PM.
Among other things Brown announced we wouldn't join the Euro, without informing Blair who was much keener on the idea.
The main issue is that No 11 has the graphs and spreadsheets, No 10 just has the political focus (and no head for figures).
 

WestRiding

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Please do, I'll be flattered. (I use a different name on SSC - "wrinkly".)

Thanks to WestRiding on the NPR thread under "Speculative Ideas" for first posting the news of the latest delay.
No worries mate. Like I said, it's a bit of a sad obsession now, searching for Integrated Rail Plan in Google News. Sad life that I have when it's one of the first things I do :lol:
 

Greybeard33

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and here from another source
That "exclusive" is from the deputy political editor of iNews. Some quotes:
One Whitehall official told i the plan as it stood would only deliver the east-west NPR link “on a shoestring” after Treasury attempts to rein in costs, and so the PM has ordered a rewrite.
The Whitehall official said: “The IRP is currently with the PM’s policy team being rewritten.

“Boris came back from holiday and was not happy with what the Treasury and Department for Transport (DfT) had come up with, which is an NPR network on a shoestring, when this is his flagship Red Wall policy.”

They claimed the final plan for NPR could be closer to £20bn rather than the £39bn first envisaged.

“It’s a total mess,” they said.

“You will know who has won this battle between No 10 and 11 if NPR is in the 30s or 20s of billions of pounds when the IRP is published.

“But to do it in full you’re probably looking at something in the £40-50bn pound range, but No 10 knows it has lost that battle with the Treasury already.”
 

najaB

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On what basis could this ‘spat’ be?
Sunak apparently has ambitions on being PM (I know, who would've guessed) so it's in his interest to subtly make Johnson look bad, but not too bad, at the moment in the hope that the party will give BoJo the heave-ho before the next election is in sight.
 

Purple Orange

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Sunak apparently has ambitions on being PM (I know, who would've guessed) so it's in his interest to subtly make Johnson look bad, but not too bad, at the moment in the hope that the party will give BoJo the heave-ho before the next election is in sight.

I think Sunak would sweep up all the votes Starmer needs to capture from the floating middle ground. Although the baggage that is the rest of the party needs to be accounted for.
 

HSTEd

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Ultimately its been delayed because Sunak and the Treasury gutted the whole thing and Boris doesn't want the news getting out until after COP and its many photo opportunities is over.
 

Greybeard33

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A story in The Independent suggests that a messy compromise between No.10 and No.11 may have reprieved parts of the HS2 eastern leg, namely Birmingham to E Midlands Parkway and Clayton to Leeds, including the Leeds HS station, but leaving a gap in between:
Treasury plans to mothball the eastern leg completely are understood to have been spiked after furious Tory MPs representing “red wall” seats along the route baulked at the prospect – first revealed in The Independent earlier this month.

Instead, trains heading south will now leave Leeds via a new purpose-built HS2 line but will transfer to existing tracks in the village of Clayton on the border of the West and South Yorkshire counties. From there, they will run at slow speeds for at least 60 miles before possibly joining with a new line at the East Midlands Parkway station.

A purpose-built hub in the Nottinghamshire village of Toton – which would have connected Derby and Nottingham to HS2 – will be dropped altogether.
Sources suggest the compromise to build some new track in Yorkshire came after intense negotiations between the Treasury and No 10, which sees the project as crucial to its “levelling up” agenda.

It is understood the new Leeds to Clayton development survived the axe because it is fundamental to the proposed Northern Powerhouse Rail – another new line that will eventually run east to west, connecting Leeds to Manchester.
If this is correct, it would seem that the Leeds - Sheffield NPR line has been prioritised over the Leeds - London HS2 line. The story seems to suggest that London - Leeds HS2 trains would run via the MML from E Midlands Parkway to Sheffield, but this is surely a non-starter in respect of line capacity!
 

edwin_m

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If this is correct, it would seem that the Leeds - Sheffield NPR line has been prioritised over the Leeds - London HS2 line. The story seems to suggest that London - Leeds HS2 trains would run via the MML from E Midlands Parkway to Sheffield, but this is surely a non-starter in respect of line capacity!
And probably journey time too.
 

MontyP

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Anyone know when the Integrated Rail Plan is finally going to be published?

And probably journey time too.
Even with a new route from Leeds to Clayton and a major upgrade of the route to EM Parkway (presumably via Barrow Hill and the direct route through the Erewash valley), it would probably take an hour to cover this part of the journey. East Midlands to Euston would be around 52 mins (using the proposed timing from the East Midlands Hub) so no significant upgrade on current journey times via the ECML. I don't know how many billions would need to be spent on Erewash, Barrow Hill and the stretch through Rotherham/Swinton/Bolton-on-Dearne to even get to continuous 100mph running.
 
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Killingworth

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Anyone know when the Integrated Rail Plan is finally going to be published?
In November. Any day from next Monday up to Tuesday 30th? It must be having a final polish and awaiting the best publicity window to favour HMG, so after COP26 hullabaloo is over, and emphasising green credentials.
 
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edwin_m

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Even with a new route from Leeds to Clayton and a major upgrade of the route to EM Parkway (presumably via Barrow Hill and the direct route through the Erewash valley), it would probably take an hour to cover this part of the journey. East Midlands to Euston would be around 52 mins (using the proposed timing from the East Midlands Hub) so no significant upgrade on current journey times via the ECML. I don't know how many billions would need to be spent on Erewash, Barrow Hill and the stretch through Rotherham/Swinton/Bolton-on-Dearne to even get to continuous 100mph running.
Absolutely, and capacity issues suggest the same thing. As soon as any of the Eastern leg is dropped, London to York and beyond is quicker by the ECML. If a somewhat larger section is dropped then so is London to Leeds.
 
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