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Comparison of Journey times in 1955 and today

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mike57

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I was having a look at Timetable World, and pondering how much journey times have improved (or not) between 1955 and Today

To take three examples that I am familar with:

London - York, 1955 3h30m+ Today 1h52m or less (Almost half the time, Today is 53% of 1955)
London - Brighton, 1955 1h0m Today 58m (Today is 97% of 1955)
York - Manchester 1955 2h20m Today 1h19m Today is about 56% of 1955

What I am interested in is the biggest decrease in %age terms, and the smallest decrease, or even increase. I am only considering through trains between major centres, routes and stops dont really come into it. In 1955 Brighton service was non-stop, now its mainly 3 stops, but overall journey time has hardly changed. No doubt one could find some strange results looking at small stations/places

Looking at the London York example, the fastest journey today is non-stop, back in 1955 there appeared to be at least one stop on most services, although the Elizabethan and Flying Scotsman were non stop to Edinburgh and Newcastle repectivley.

Why 1955, well its was just before the introduction of Diesel on main routes.
 
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eastwestdivide

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When doing that kind of exercise, it‘s always worth comparing how many fast services a day as well - that can be an eye opener. Often the headline fast time used to be one or two services a day, whereas now things tend to be more regular interval.
 

Bevan Price

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Manchester - Blackpool (1955) 66 mins (1 train; 90-110 mins was more typical). (2021) 71 mins typical
Manchester - Southport (1955) 50 mins;(1 train, 52-53 mins more typical). (2021) 66 mins
Manchester - Derby (1955) 93 mins; (2021) 109 mins (change at Sheffield)
Manchester - Leicester (1955) 2h.18m.; (2021) 2h.11m. (change at Sheffield)
Manchester - London (1955) 3h.20m.; (2021) 2h.07m.
Liverpool - London (1955) 3h.25m.; (2021) 2h.06m.
Manchester - Glasgow (1955) 5h.40m.; (2021) 3h.11m.
Manchester - Birmingham (1955) 2h.00m.; (2021) 1h.30m.
 

WesternLancer

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I was having a look at Timetable World, and pondering how much journey times have improved (or not) between 1955 and Today

To take three examples that I am familar with:

London - York, 1955 3h30m+ Today 1h52m or less (Almost half the time, Today is 53% of 1955)
London - Brighton, 1955 1h0m Today 58m (Today is 97% of 1955)
York - Manchester 1955 2h20m Today 1h19m Today is about 56% of 1955

What I am interested in is the biggest decrease in %age terms, and the smallest decrease, or even increase. I am only considering through trains between major centres, routes and stops dont really come into it. In 1955 Brighton service was non-stop, now its mainly 3 stops, but overall journey time has hardly changed. No doubt one could find some strange results looking at small stations/places

Looking at the London York example, the fastest journey today is non-stop, back in 1955 there appeared to be at least one stop on most services, although the Elizabethan and Flying Scotsman were non stop to Edinburgh and Newcastle repectivley.

Why 1955, well its was just before the introduction of Diesel on main routes.
Brighton line tech (3rd rail) already in place by 1955 of course (1930s investment) - I wonder about BR(SR) Kent times pre and post kent coast electrification scheme.
 

JB_B

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I suspect that for some routes you'll find only smallish ( or no ) improvement in fastest journey times since 1955 but massive increases in frequency/capacity - that's certainly true of the Brighton Line.
 

mike57

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Have you got the link to the 1955 timetable(s)?
timetableworld.com and then follow the menus.
I suspect that for some routes you'll find only smallish ( or no ) improvement in fastest journey times since 1955 but massive increases in frequency/capacity - that's certainly true of the Brighton Line.
For what I am looking at I am not as interested in frequency/capacity, I was also trying to determine "out and back in a day, and leave some time to acheive something", and to roughly draw 2 hour and 4 hour journey time lines around some major population centres, using the average of the fastest journeys rather than just taking one headline journey say the top 3/4.

I was asked by a friend who was writing a story how long various journeys would take to make the plot hold together, (no good allowing the main character to travel from London to York in under 2hr in a 1955 time frame) and it got me thinking whilst getting the info he needed.

Manchester - Blackpool (1955) 66 mins (1 train; 90-110 mins was more typical). (2021) 71 mins typical
Manchester - Southport (1955) 50 mins;(1 train, 52-53 mins more typical). (2021) 66 mins
Manchester - Derby (1955) 93 mins; (2021) 109 mins (change at Sheffield)
Manchester - Leicester (1955) 2h.18m.; (2021) 2h.11m. (change at Sheffield)
Manchester - London (1955) 3h.20m.; (2021) 2h.07m.
Liverpool - London (1955) 3h.25m.; (2021) 2h.06m.
Manchester - Glasgow (1955) 5h.40m.; (2021) 3h.11m.
Manchester - Birmingham (1955) 2h.00m.; (2021) 1h.30m.
Really its the London services that have seen the biggest improvements, and the regional services have not improved by as much or not at all. Which is what I was expecting. Manchester - Southport looks like a big(gest) loser, do you know why, Manchester Blackpool I assume is refering to the fast commuter train as a 1 off, My average of 'best 3 or 4' probably puts it as a slight inprovement. I assume the Manchester - East Midland times reflect the loss of the direct route.
 
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Railwaysceptic

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Brighton line tech (3rd rail) already in place by 1955 of course (1930s investment) - I wonder about BR(SR) Kent times pre and post kent coast electrification scheme.
Also the Bournemouth Main Line. I'm interested in differences on the NE/SW route: e.g. Newcastle to Birmingham or Derby to Bristol.
 

stuu

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Also the Bournemouth Main Line. I'm interested in differences on the NE/SW route: e.g. Newcastle to Birmingham or Derby to Bristol.
Newcastle-Birmingham 5:16 in 1955, 3:42 now
Derby-Bristol 3:43 in 1955, 2:15 now

The 1955 times were mostly one or through trains per day, vs hourly now
 

30907

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Also the Bournemouth Main Line.
2hr 10 in 1955 improving to 2hr (by 2 down and 3 up trains) - electrification in 1967 brought it down to 100min immediately, now 106min with 4 stops.

Kent Coast: Cannon St-Ramsgate 2hr, 1hr50 from 1959 for same stops and frequency. Charing Cross-Folkestone remained 80min at first but now with an Ashford stop and hourly instead of 2-3tpd.
In both cases the EMUs were limited to 75mph back then, steam was 85mph.
 

Dave W

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It doesn't meet your brief of major centres (well to me it does - Stourbridge is the centre of the universe ;)) but I was intrigued to see what the timings were over a shorter distance so had a look at Stourbridge-Birmingham Snow Hill, on the excellent Stourbridge Line User Group Website

Interestingly "fast trains" called only at Smethwick West in those days, and sometimes originated at Cardiff (routed via Hereford) - these can be compared with the one-a-day fast West Midlands train that only stops at Smethwick GB, which is probably a legacy of these! (and is actually timetabled quicker than the Chiltern services)

1955: 0906 - 0931 (25 minutes)
2021: 1016 - 1036 (20 minutes)

There's no equivalent semi-fast (not calling at Lye, Old Hill or Langley), but the all stations look like this:

1955: 0515 - 0555 (40 minutes)
2021: 0624 - 0654 (30 minutes)

The 1955 service had extra stops to make at Handsworth and Smethwick, Soho and Winson Green and Hockley - but The Hawthorns and Jewellery Quarter didn't exist in those days (except the former for football which isn't mentioned in the timetable). The calling patterns are quite irregular - a couple of the above mentioned fast trains also called at Langley, there's one service which just randomly misses out Rowley Regis, and a couple of morning peaks which miss out stations almost at random. On Saturdays a train extended back from Cardiff to start at Pembroke Dock! The destination list is quite extensive in comparison - trains to London, Cardiff, Shrewsbury via the Severn Valley... Although the basic service level was hourly - it's a lot more than that these days
 

Bevan Price

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timetableworld.com and then follow the menus.

For what I am looking at I am not as interested in frequency/capacity, I was also trying to determine "out and back in a day, and leave some time to acheive something", and to roughly draw 2 hour and 4 hour journey time lines around some major population centres, using the average of the fastest journeys rather than just taking one headline journey say the top 3/4.

Really its the London services that have seen the biggest improvements, and the regional services have not improved by as much or not at all. Which is what I was expecting. Manchester - Southport looks like a big(gest) loser, do you know why, Manchester Blackpool I assume is refering to the fast commuter train as a 1 off, My average of 'best 3 or 4' probably puts it as a slight inprovement. I assume the Manchester - East Midland times reflect the loss of the direct route.
The Manchester / Blackpool time was for an evening peak service from Manchester Victoria calling only at Blackpool South & Central. Other trains called at a lot more stations, including some for Blackpool North that detached Fleetwood portions at Poulton Le Fylde.

Southport (Chapel St.) had roughly 2 hourly expresses from Manchester Victoria calling only at Wigan Wallgate & St. Lukes; the 50 minute journey was also a peak service that omitted the stop at Wigan. All those expresses have now disappeared, replaced by semi-fast & stopping services.

As for "out & back" trips, from Liverpool to London, you could get about 6 hours in London, with the option of staying longer if you went south & returned north on the overnight "sleeper" (which also conveyed normal "seating" coaches.)

Liverpool or Manchester to Glasgow or Edinburgh was only worth attempting a "day trip" if you used the overnight sleeper in both directions. Remember, there were a lot more overnight trains & sleepers in 1955 than now exist, and not all of them served London.
 
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Taunton

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Pretty much the whole of the Merseyrail 3rd rail system which was electrified by 1955 has the same or worse running times, and worse frequencies in the peak.

The same running times thing seems commonplace on those lines already electrified in 1955, which is a bit surprising as every successive generation of rolling stock on such lines seems to bring double the horsepower of what went before.

I wonder what the position is on the established London Underground lines.
 
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stuu

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I wonder what the position is on the established London Underground lines.
Good question: Timetable World has the Met Line from 1979
Chesham - Liverpool St is 2 minutes quicker now

Other lines might be more interesting if available somewhere
 

Railwaysceptic

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Newcastle-Birmingham 5:16 in 1955, 3:42 now
Derby-Bristol 3:43 in 1955, 2:15 now

The 1955 times were mostly one or through trains per day, vs hourly now
2hr 10 in 1955 improving to 2hr (by 2 down and 3 up trains) - electrification in 1967 brought it down to 100min immediately, now 106min with 4 stops.

Kent Coast: Cannon St-Ramsgate 2hr, 1hr50 from 1959 for same stops and frequency. Charing Cross-Folkestone remained 80min at first but now with an Ashford stop and hourly instead of 2-3tpd.
In both cases the EMUs were limited to 75mph back then, steam was 85mph.
Thank you. Substantial improvements in all cases.
 

contrex

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... lines already electrified in 1955, which is a bit surprising as every successive generation of rolling stock on such lines seems to bring double the horsepower of what went before.
Not quite double?

4Cor4Buf4Cor 2700 hp
6Pul6Pan 3600 hp
4Cig4Big4Cig 3000 hp
4Cep4Bep4Cep 3000 hp
3 x 465 4800 hp
3 x 377 4800 hp

BUT if you add in the hotel power of modern units, and the different motor technology (AC drive vs series DC) the load on the substations is so much greater.
 
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Route115?

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The other thing to bear in mind is that many services have additional stops. The number of stops at certain intermediate stations is much higher now than say forty years ago and doubtless 1955.
 

Egg Centric

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Frequency on the Watford DC is far lower than it used to be. It’s recently been upgraded to 15 minutes from 20 minutes. In 1955 you could get a train every 4 minutes, sometimes with 2 minute headways. Euston to Watford took 45 minutes (most services did use Broad St tho) - now it takes 53.
 

Bertone

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Frequency on the Watford DC is far lower than it used to be. It’s recently been upgraded to 15 minutes from 20 minutes. In 1955 you could get a train every 4 minutes, sometimes with 2 minute headways. Euston to Watford took 45 minutes (most services did use Broad St tho) - now it takes 53.
Any idea where/why the 8 minutes is “lost”
 

Bertone

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Probably at stations - remember suburban electrics were booked 20sec stops - but that was with slam doors.

I also recall the Oerlikon stock which had wide sliding doors at each of the carriage but don’t know when they were replaced.
 

Dr Hoo

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Frequency on the Watford DC is far lower than it used to be. It’s recently been upgraded to 15 minutes from 20 minutes. In 1955 you could get a train every 4 minutes, sometimes with 2 minute headways. Euston to Watford took 45 minutes (most services did use Broad St tho) - now it takes 53.
Let's not get carried away. The 'DC' service was undoubtedly more frequent in the 1950s but Bradshaw for 1955 simply states 'then at about 10 to 20 minutes frequencies' throughout the day on a timetable that unhelpfully conflates both Euston and Broad Street services. Depending on what journey you needed to make things could be quite hit and miss. Fine for something like Kenton to Harlesden but (say) Carpenders Park to Euston would need a bit more time up your sleeve.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Any journey times which are now longer than their 1955 equivalents? Not talking about situations where lines/stations have closed and long winded alternative routes are now needed.
 

Taunton

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Let's not get carried away. The 'DC' service was undoubtedly more frequent in the 1950s but Bradshaw for 1955 simply states 'then at about 10 to 20 minutes frequencies' throughout the day on a timetable that unhelpfully conflates both Euston and Broad Street services. Depending on what journey you needed to make things could be quite hit and miss. Fine for something like Kenton to Harlesden but (say) Carpenders Park to Euston would need a bit more time up your sleeve.
The bulk of the demand on those lines then, I recall, was to neither Euston nor Broad Street, but to the Bakerloo, either direct or changing at Queens Park, which everyone was in the habit of doing. We had relatives near Wembley Central in the 1960s who cumbersomely explained this more than once in when visiting - even with my childish knowledge I could see they were making a meal of the description.
 

Egg Centric

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Let's not get carried away. The 'DC' service was undoubtedly more frequent in the 1950s but Bradshaw for 1955 simply states 'then at about 10 to 20 minutes frequencies' throughout the day on a timetable that unhelpfully conflates both Euston and Broad Street services. Depending on what journey you needed to make things could be quite hit and miss. Fine for something like Kenton to Harlesden but (say) Carpenders Park to Euston would need a bit more time up your sleeve.

I got the 4 minute thing from looking at the 'core' section of table 53 of the 1955 midland timetable at Timetable World and counting 16 trains with a northbound departure from South Kenton beginning with 7. In hindsight, 7 of them were Bakerloo line trains which I didn't (but should have) realised were on the timetable... but that's stil a frequency of every 6 minutes!
 

seaviewer

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MCR asked; Any journey times which are now longer than their 1955 equivalents? Not talking about situations where lines/stations have closed and long winded alternative routes are now needed.

Eastbourne doesn't do very well. Most trains now take 83-85 min mid afternoon. 1958 it was 86 min.
Nowadays things slow down in the rush hour; the 1745 gets there at 1920; in 1958 the 1754 arrived at 1922. In 1938 the 1745 (from London Bridge) arrived at 1910 - only 85 min compared with today's 95
 

30907

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MCR asked; Any journey times which are now longer than their 1955 equivalents? Not talking about situations where lines/stations have closed and long winded alternative routes are now needed.

Eastbourne doesn't do very well. Most trains now take 83-85 min mid afternoon. 1958 it was 86 min.
They call additionally (pre Covid) at Clapham Jn, Gatwick, Wivelsfield and Plumpton or Cooksbridge in that time (and run half hourly). (There have been major shifts in commuter patterns over the decades in favour of the former "small" stations.)
 

mike57

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Having looked into this a bit further it seems that most of the lines electrified by the Southern Railway pre WW2 havnt shown any significant improvement in journey times since 1955, OK so nowadays there may be more trains and/or more stops, and in the case of trains through Arundel a different route between London and Horsham, but headline journey times are similar. Another route where the headline journey time hasn't improved by much is Paddington - Bristol TM. 1h 45m to 1h 32m, However South Wales and Devon and Cornwall services have fared much better with at least an hour shaved off most times.

Taking the Bristol TM case todays offering seems poor, I assume 90mph was the nominal top speed in 1955, and its 125mph today
 

Bertone

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Kowloon - Lo Wu

pre-electric: approximately 78 minutes
now: approximately 43 minutes
Very Impressive- mind you I did spend a very enjoyable and productive 10 years on the KCR East Rail signalling upgrade from early 1990’s to 2004 !!
 
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