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Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

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BayPaul

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Do people from the Westcountry often go to Leeds-Newcastle inclusive? Wouldn't have thought so.
And Manchester (which had through services pre-covid), and Sheffied, as well as Nottingham from Cardiff.
I think it is reasonable to assume (as someone without access to ticket sales) that yes, there is a lot of demand for travel to 5 of the largest cities in the country.
If it moves to Moor Street it doesn't have the option to continue onward to the north - it can go to Stourbridge and onward to Worcester, or it can reverse and head for Banbury
Yes, I'd agree - it will almost certainly terminate for connections to HS2. Not ideal, but not the end of the world.
 
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adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
I don't want to keep going back and forth on what the timetable says versus your perception of the reality, but I don't think your projected timings are realistic. 1tph between Bristol and Birmingham is almost certainly not going to cut it in 2040, especially when Cheltenham to London will be faster via HS2. In any case, I think you're being needlessly pessimistic about the reliability of NPR/HS2. You can have almost as long as you like though, since it's 3tph on the speedy end. You'll also stand a much better chance of a comfortable journey from Birmingham onwards. Except:

Which by all accounts will be quite pleasant, as discussed above.

I'll freely admit I don't like this. I can't travel backwards at all, and combined with compulsory reservations would mean I'd be standing for one leg of this journey. It's a shame, but there are quite a few journeys requiring a reversal today, including Birmingham to Aberystwyth.

Conveniently enough, the tunnels are located in places where the train will be travelling fastest relative to today. The two rather go hand in hand in urban or hilly areas.

Why on earth would anybody from Cheltenham go on a dog leg route via Birmingham and changing stations there when there are already direct trains to Old Oak Common and London Paddington that go via Swindon and Reading on a much shorter route?

After all, the shortest route is always valid.
 

Ianno87

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Why on earth would anybody from Cheltenham go on a dog leg route via Birmingham and changing stations there when there are already direct trains to Old Oak Common and London Paddington that go via Swindon and Reading on a much shorter route?

After all, the shortest route is always valid.

If its faster and/or cheaper they will.

Don't people often 'dog leg' for journeys like Shrewsbury-Crewe-Euston today?
 

RailWonderer

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It's things like electricals that there's now basically no point in buying in person.
My elderly father wanted to be shown how to use certain things without having to read an instruction manual and I assume there are many others like him.

Back to the government’s pledge. I’m mainly concerned with the short to mid term, since all the high speed and mass transit stuff and East- West Midlands connectivity is purely longer term and it’s too soon to be debating it as all details for those projects are too vague and far away for now.

The electrification is most likely to happen first with maybe a few cutbacks. The rest is purely as I see it, aspirational, not all of this is ever going to be carried out. I think Leeds will get its much needed 2tph to London, EMR via St Pancras forming the second service before HS2 serves it.
Over 500 posts in 24 hours so I don’t have time to read them so excuse me if I retreaded old ground.

Getting rid of all diesels won’t happen, only IC routes will be rid of them.
 

BayPaul

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Why on earth would anybody from Cheltenham go on a dog leg route via Birmingham and changing stations there when there are already direct trains to Old Oak Common and London Paddington that go via Swindon and Reading on a much shorter route?

After all, the shortest route is always valid.
Because its likely to be faster. Around 40 minutes Cheltenham to Birmingham, then 45 minutes to Euston. Call it 1h45 to allow transfer time. Compared to over 2 hours via Swindon, to Paddington which is further from most destinations in London.

Give it some decent price advances, and of course people will go that way.

From Worcester, I would imagine it will be even more cut and dried going via HS2 than via Oxford.

Incidentally, that gives an (admittedly smallish) benefit to the SW - taking these passengers off the GWML gives more room for other passengers!
 

quantinghome

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I think Leeds will get its much needed 2tph to London
That's what it already gets (few gaps left at present as the timetable returns to normal). The plan was to get another every 2 hours (i.e increase to 2.5tph) but the latest timetable ditched that promise due to lack of capacity.
 

muddythefish

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I honestly can't believe people are arguing that the South West shouldn't have a direct through train to the North that is actually fast and convenient for people (even before COVID the XC service was poor to say the least - now with it requiring a change in Birmingham it is simply pathetic). All this talk about how the North is being left behind by this government - but the same people talking about that are happy for the South West to suffer by the looks of it.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's staggering that there are no direct express passenger trains from the south west (or south Wales?) to the north west. I used to travel Manchester-Bristol many times in the 1980s and the trains were always well loaded. Why would not 2 important economic and populous regions not be linked by a direct trains several times a day? It doesn't make sense - except for the operational expediency perhaps
 

Peterthegreat

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Quite, especially when all that is needed to rectify the situation is a junction somewhere near Water Orton where HS2 is adjacent to the existing line.

Before HS2 east was canned north of Toton it was less of an issue, as Crosscountry trains from south of Birmingham would have had to continue north of Birmingham to Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield to serve those places.

However with HS2 east now planned to plug into Derby Station, the HS2 trains will need to use the Crosscountry Paths on the Midland Mainline north of Derby.

While I guess this is not good news if you live in Burton or Tamworth, several smaller towns on the route might well stand more chance of their stations reopening, if the route is downgraded to a local Birmingham to Derby affair.
Surely HS2 trains will use capacity north of Derby vacated by current MML services.
 

D6130

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Apologies if this has already mentioned, but today's 'Independent' is reporting that Transport for the North is to be stripped of its powers by the government as a consequence of its criticism of the IRP.
 

Roast Veg

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Not to London if Sheffield/Derby to Euston fast trains run over HS2.

However post HS2 you still need

* intercity services from Nott to Leic
* intercity services from Derby to Leic
* intercity services from Leics to Lon
* semi fast services from Nott/Derby to Lon via Market Kettleborough.

So other than perhaps caping one of the current two an hour Sheffield services at Derby, there is not a lot of scope to reduce current services on the MML post HS2 without causing a lot of squealing in high places.
This also assumes the MML will not have its capacity expanded. Certain parts of the MML are definitely getting upgraded as opposed to just electrified (Trent, Dore, Sheffield), so it's not beyond possibility that more space can't be found between those points.
 

Peterthegreat

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There seems to be an assumption trains from Birmingham to Sheffield would be routed via East Mids Parkway. Is this specifically mentioned in the report?
Trains going that way would take longer to get to Derby than the direct route via Tamworth. And where would they go at Sheffield? There just isn't space to terminate additional services at Sheffield.
 

JamesT

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There seems to be an assumption trains from Birmingham to Sheffield would be routed via East Mids Parkway. Is this specifically mentioned in the report?
Trains going that way would take longer to get to Derby than the direct route via Tamworth. And where would they go at Sheffield? There just isn't space to terminate additional services at Sheffield.

Page 76 of the report:
• a new high speed line from the West Midlands to
East Midlands Parkway55 (HS2 East) to be developed
by HS2 Ltd, based largely on the existing safeguarded
route, but designed to allow trains to reach the existing
stations in Nottingham and Derby, and to be capable of
future extension. This should allow Derby and Nottingham
journeys to London in less than 60 minutes, and
Nottingham to Birmingham journeys in around 26 minutes,
significantly faster than under previous proposals, which
would have required passengers to change at Toton.
• completing electrification of the Midland Main Line
(already being electrified to Market Harborough)
to Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield via Derby.
Combined with the new East Midlands high speed line
above, this would give Sheffield and Chesterfield almost
exactly the same journey times to London as existing HS2
plans. Electrification will also bring forward decarbonisation
of existing diesel services, which will speed up
services and improve reliability to towns and cities on
Midland Mainline, such as Leicester, Loughborough,
and Long Eaton
There almost certainly will have to be some development at Sheffield, but there isn't the detail to say whether the HS2 services will be on top, or could be replacing some of the existing services. It may be a longer way round, but if you can go 2-3 times faster then overall it will be quicker.
 

Nottingham59

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There seems to be an assumption trains from Birmingham to Sheffield would be routed via East Mids Parkway. Is this specifically mentioned in the report?
Trains going that way would take longer to get to Derby than the direct route via Tamworth.
I had assumed it would be faster via EM Parkway. If trains from Central Birmingham are faster to Derby via Tamworth, then does that mean that trains from London to Derby would be faster that way too, if there was an appropriate curve at Water Orton? I'd be very surprised if that were the case.
 

The Planner

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Quite, especially when all that is needed to rectify the situation is a junction somewhere near Water Orton where HS2 is adjacent to the existing line.
You would have to do it somewhere between Washwood Heath and Saltley. Would make an interesting system integration problem. HS2 is diving into tunnel at Bromford and doesnt pop out until the back of Water Orton.
 

Starmill

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Surely HS2 trains will use capacity north of Derby vacated by current MML services
As has been pointed out it would be very unpopular if there were no longer Sheffield to Leicester services.

This also assumes the MML will not have its capacity expanded. Certain parts of the MML are definitely getting upgraded as opposed to just electrified (Trent, Dore, Sheffield), so it's not beyond possibility that more space can't be found between those points.
To add 2tph between East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield via Derby overlaid on the current service would be difficult but very possible in line with electrification and some other infrastructure improvements. To add 4tph would require some enormous interventions taking years, causing enormous disruption and coming at unknown cost.
 

The Planner

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There seems to be an assumption trains from Birmingham to Sheffield would be routed via East Mids Parkway. Is this specifically mentioned in the report?
Trains going that way would take longer to get to Derby than the direct route via Tamworth. And where would they go at Sheffield? There just isn't space to terminate additional services at Sheffield.
Isn't the quote Curzon St to Nottingham in 28 mins? Take some of that off for the journey from East Mids to Nottingham and its probably very similar to now.
 

Bald Rick

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It’s taken me longer to read this thread than the IRP itself.

A few comments that I hope help matters.


You forget that I live on the Calder Valley route and don't have much cause to go to Leeds. I don't see anything in this for me

None of the options for NPR ever did much (or indeed anything) for the Calder Valley Line. I’m not sure what you expected?



I am looking at a live news feed (it will all be in tomorrow's papers) which suggests the pushback from mayors in the regions covered by the 'Plan is rather strong and they are somewhat unconvinced by the spin Grant Shapps put on it in his presentation. Quite a queue has formed to put the boot in.

This all starts to look like yet another U-turn in the making.

A U turn to *not* committing to nearly £100bn of rail investment? Ie do nothing?


My problem with the IRP is the new NPR line doesn't reach Yorkshire. How can extra services be added to a two track railway that already has pinchpoints especially at Leeds and Sheffield stations? They talk of 8tph Leeds- Manchester but how is there room for them in Leeds especially ?

The new NPR line will reach Yorkshire. And the new fast lines from Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe are effectively NPR lines too.



if I read it right it will still be a two track railway Marsden- Huddersfield

It will be mostly 3, some 4 track.

Not benefiting the south west I can live with, but this actively DIS benefits the south west if we lose direct trains to the north!? How on earth can this be seen as progress!!??

There is no suggestion of removing SW to the north trains.


I agree. I am an absolute fan of the railways in the UK but right now if I was back in my UK home and wanted to get to Newquay I would fly from either MAN or LPL rather than get the train from PRE.

Not right now you wouldn’t, as you’d be waiting till Sunday (and paying much more than using Cross Country). There’s only 4 flights a week Manchester to Newquay, and none from Liverpool. You’d actually be most likely to drive, which is what most people do.


Even if 2tph from St Pancras were to be curtailed at Leicester so as to maintain their 4tph frequency, where do you send them to so as they are out of the way as there are no terminating bay platforms at Leicester?

The 4tph to Leicester isn’t a real 4tph though. It’s effectively 2tph: northbound they leave St P in pairs 3 minutes apart, one non stop the other with two stops. Leicester passengers invariably get the first one.
 

The Planner

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I think this alteration to HS2 is the least of the greater railway's concerns. You've got large swathes of the network with no plans for electrification and a mentality that has indicated what 'plan' there is includes the likes of the Bakerloo line running with at least 60+ year old stock. That thinking will leave the wider network in a far more perilous situation in 20 years than the question of how many minutes quicker the people of Leeds could potentially have gotten to Manchester, Birmingham or London or how inconvenient changing in Birmingham travelling cross country would be on a potentially quicker journey.
Glad someone spotted that.
 

RPI

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Apologies, skimmed this thread as it escalated quickly, assuming there's no mention of electrification to Oxford and Bristol Temple Meads?
 

Starmill

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Apologies, skimmed this thread as it escalated quickly, assuming there's no mention of electrification to Oxford and Bristol Temple Meads?
There isn't no. It's the Integrated Rail Plan for the Midlands and the North.
 

OverSpeed

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Not too sure if this the right place to post this, but if the idea is put the xc services into moor st to make easier conectivity with hs2 at curzon street, will there be capacity issues with local services that serve the snow hill lines, or will they be pathed into new street?

It's just that i was always under the impression that the local services from the coventry wcml section, would be routed into Moor st for some reason!
 

domcoop7

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Random side comment:

The thread and debate is considerably more engaging to be involved with in diving into the nuances and pros/cons of the IRP than trying to make a dent into the shouty 280-characters-or-less soundbites over on the Twittersphere.

Over here we can all say whatever our opinion and viewpoint is, with proper change to argue/justify/critique it, and not just gain false confirmation by how many 'likes' our own echo chamber happens to get.
Second that! I've given up on Twitter at the moment concerning the IRP. It's full of people who don't know the first thing about rail (other than to re-tweet some gormless reporter saying we have the worst railway in Europe and our trains cost more than planes, etc.) saying the plan is bad because "Tories". And then another group of people saying the plan is bad because "Zoom and nobody needs to travel anymore". Tiresome.
 

HSTEd

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So is Andy Burnham kicking up a stink about not getting his enormously expensive underground through station for Manchester?

The one with the tiny 200m platforms that would be a massive bottleneck for decades to come?
 

Legolash2o

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Would anyone be interested if I decided to map the entire IPR plans from electrification, signalling and everything else? All on an interactive map.
 
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