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Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

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Bletchleyite

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All new cars require that by law now as a prelude to enforcing speed limits!

One would hope that they were capable of recognising a black number on a white background (or vice versa, for a smart motorway one) in a red circle, as against a bus number which has none of those features. If not the feature is downright dangerous.
 
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Horizon22

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Well that depends on the size of the batteries on the respective bike / car.

One of the more common e bike battery sizes is 500Wh, car batteries are typically in the range 50kWh - 100kWh. The higher figure is 200 x the capacity of the bike battery, and 200x 23million is less than the population of the world.

Is it directly proportional though?
 

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One would hope that they were capable of recognising a black number on a white background (or vice versa, for a smart motorway one) in a red circle, as against a bus number which has none of those features. If not the feature is downright dangerous.
The system can only read some signs, not all so relies on a database of roads

Many manufacturers do not update them, temporary limits and overhead signs are missed. Limits are more often shown too high rather than low and derestricted signs don't work!
 

trebor79

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Yes, but Teslas can add a bit of idiocy of their own. A friend of mine had an early one which would read the number on the front of a passing bus as a speed limit. It was quite entertaining! (I would add that the car was under manual control at the time!).

All new cars require that by law now as a prelude to enforcing speed limits!
I don't think this is the case.
 

87 027

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From the EU legislation


Chapter II, Article 6

1. Motor vehicles shall be equipped with the following advanced vehicle systems:

(a) intelligent speed assistance;

...

2. Intelligent speed assistance shall meet the following minimum requirements:

(a) it shall be possible for the driver to be made aware through the accelerator control, or through dedicated, appropriate and effective feedback, that the applicable speed limit is exceeded;

(b) it shall be possible to switch off the system; information about the speed limit may still be provided, and intelligent speed assistance shall be in normal operation mode upon each activation of the vehicle master control switch;

(c) the dedicated and appropriate feedback shall be based on speed limit information obtained through the observation of road signs and signals, based on infrastructure signals or electronic map data, or both, made available in-vehicle;

(d) it shall not affect the possibility, for the drivers, of exceeding the system’s prompted vehicle speed;

(e) its performance targets shall be set in order to avoid or minimise the error rate under real driving conditions.

In summary, fitted yes, but able to be switched off or ignored
 

Bald Rick

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Is it directly proportional though?

I’m not sure I follow, sorry!


Meanwhile, no fewer than four of my friends have taken delivery of an EV in the last 2 weeks. I’m struggling to think of anyone I know who has bought a brand new car in the last 6 months that has an engine.

It’s getting to the point where I think anybody in the market for a brand new car will surely be at least considering an EV, if not taking the plunge.
 

reddragon

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I’m not sure I follow, sorry!


Meanwhile, no fewer than four of my friends have taken delivery of an EV in the last 2 weeks. I’m struggling to think of anyone I know who has bought a brand new car in the last 6 months that has an engine.

It’s getting to the point where I think anybody in the market for a brand new car will surely be at least considering an EV, if not taking the plunge.
Same where I am, most ID3/4s, Mach-E, IONIQ 5s, loads of LEAF / Zoe's. A few are buying second hand fossils, and the odd one's who buy a new fossil cars are laughed at, especially by their kids who givem hell about it!
 

trebor79

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I’m not sure I follow, sorry!


Meanwhile, no fewer than four of my friends have taken delivery of an EV in the last 2 weeks. I’m struggling to think of anyone I know who has bought a brand new car in the last 6 months that has an engine.

It’s getting to the point where I think anybody in the market for a brand new car will surely be at least considering an EV, if not taking the plunge.

Same where I am, most ID3/4s, Mach-E, IONIQ 5s, loads of LEAF / Zoe's. A few are buying second hand fossils, and the odd one's who buy a new fossil cars are laughed at, especially by their kids who givem hell about it!
And I'm trying to persuade my wife that it's a good idea to replace one of our ancient bangers with a new EV now, rather than wait till the wheels fall off and be stuck without a car for months.
She just sees the headline cost and says "that's a lot of money, bother our cars work".
Trying to arrange an extended test drive so she can try for herself. Plus, it's worth a bit of money not to be driving round in a knackered old heap, in my opinion.
 

Horizon22

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I’m not sure I follow, sorry!


Meanwhile, no fewer than four of my friends have taken delivery of an EV in the last 2 weeks. I’m struggling to think of anyone I know who has bought a brand new car in the last 6 months that has an engine.

It’s getting to the point where I think anybody in the market for a brand new car will surely be at least considering an EV, if not taking the plunge.

Sorry! As in a 200x bigger battery definitely needs 200x more lithium? I would think that perhaps these batteries might be different depending on size but I am not at all an expert.
 

reddragon

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And I'm trying to persuade my wife that it's a good idea to replace one of our ancient bangers with a new EV now, rather than wait till the wheels fall off and be stuck without a car for months.
She just sees the headline cost and says "that's a lot of money, bother our cars work".
Trying to arrange an extended test drive so she can try for herself. Plus, it's worth a bit of money not to be driving round in a knackered old heap, in my opinion.
I was driving an 8yo Vauxhall diesel estate. I added up all the costs and divided by 12 for a pcm figure.

When I did the same for a LEAF it was cheaper, cheap enough to get the Tekna. Now the MG5 is even cheaper than that!

That's before all the other benefits. Take her to the Fully Charged show at Farnborough in April, she can test drive to her hearts content there!

Sorry! As in a 200x bigger battery definitely needs 200x more lithium? I would think that perhaps these batteries might be different depending on size but I am not at all an expert.
Smaller batteries require a higher percentage of lithium so not linear in scale.
 

trebor79

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I was driving an 8yo Vauxhall diesel estate. I added up all the costs and divided by 12 for a pcm figure.

When I did the same for a LEAF it was cheaper, cheap enough to get the Tekna. Now the MG5 is even cheaper than that!
Yep, it's the MG5 I'm thinking of getting to replace my little 208. Then when her Renault Grand Scenic dies we'll get another little car.
I've told her the net cost is something daft like £80 a month. No brainer from my POV.
 

Bald Rick

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Same where I am, most ID3/4s, Mach-E, IONIQ 5s, loads of LEAF / Zoe's. A few are buying second hand fossils, and the odd one's who buy a new fossil cars are laughed at, especially by their kids who givem hell about it!

The 4 are: two Audis, a Kia EV6 (looks amazing) and a Leaf.
 

Ediswan

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To quote the article you linked to:
The speed limiter technology, called Intelligent Speed Assistant (ISA) uses GPS data and/or traffic-sign-recognition cameras to determine the maximum speed allowed in an area.
Your original assertion (#1620) was that traffic sign recognition cameras were already mandatory on new cars. The new regulation does not come in until July 2022. When it does, GPS can be used instead of a camera. So no.

From the EU legislation


In summary, fitted yes, but able to be switched off or ignored
Thanks for that. Always good to read the original legislation. I didn't see anything about updating "electronic map data", not even a requirement that it be possible.

I don't understand why this technology is often potrayed as a speed limiter. It is not. The clue is in the name "Intelligent Speed Assistance".

(This is not specific to EVs, so if it deserves its own thread...)
 
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JohnMcL7

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Indeed, and EV's are very much needed. However we also need to look at reducing our car usage, especially given that we're not going to get to majority of cars being EV's until about 2030 and we've still got a fair amount of decarbonation to go to meet our targets.

Before anyone comments that we only produce less than 1% of global emissions, in the 1990 it was circa 2.5%, so we've already made some good progress (and few would say or quality of life has deteriorated in that time) and there's still plenty that can be done without significantly impacting our "quality of life".

In fact there's many who suggest that is we used or cars a little less then quality of life for many would significantly improve, not least due to air quality improvements, improved fitness levels, less conversion, less space needed to store cars (with the potential for some of that to be green space) and so on.
I agree and I think that's the question the OP was asking, not petrol/diesel vs electric cars as most of the thread has been. What concerns me with discussions on electric cars is not only will people boast about using their electric car for trips better suited to walking or cycling (short frequent trips in built up areas) but constantly promoting and encouraging others to do the same. Even worse I've seen some particularly vocal electric car proponents rubbishing cycling which says a lot about how green their motives really are.

The combination of the pandemic and rising fuel prices were potentially a great catalyst to moving away from cars but it's depressing to see the last of the cycling/walking improvements in my city that were installed during covid have now been removed. I was doing a commuting survey and previously it was focused on getting people to walk/cycle but this time the tone was very different, there was a brief mention of walking and cycling but the focus was on electric cars and boiled down to why are not buying an electric car and what would convince you to buy one? The fact that I was already commuting to work sustainably without using a car didn't seem to matter.

As you say there's many more problems with cars than just their pollution and when passing by gridlocked streets here packed with cars in every direction, more cars regardless of how they're powered is not the solution. I have a new puppy and if I didn't cycle I'd probably be seriously looking at replacing my car for an electric one which could cheaply do the frequent trips to come back to the puppy that walking is too slow for. However when I was in the same position 12 years ago with a new puppy I needed to quickly get home at lunch for the diesel car I had was unsuited to short trips and it was wasteful so I bit the bullet, bought a nice bike and forced myself to use that. It was a hassle to begin with but I was surprised to find once I was in the habit and my fitness was better I preferred the bike to the car, I could easily get where I wanted without worrying about traffic and park up wherever I needed with minimal running costs and improved my health as well. It was a great decision with numerous other benefits as well and I've heavily reduced my car usage to the point I rarely use it since the bike can handle most of my needs. However with electric cars being pushed so hard, poor support for walking and cycling I can see people in the same situation now going to electric cars instead and continuing the many problems cars present.
 
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The Ham

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I agree and I think that's the question the OP was asking, not petrol/diesel vs electric cars as most of the thread has been. What concerns me with discussions on electric cars is not only will people boast about using their electric car for trips better suited to walking or cycling (short frequent trips in built up areas) but constantly promoting and encouraging others to do the same. Even worse I've seen some particularly vocal electric car proponents rubbishing cycling which says a lot about how green their motives really are.

The combination of the pandemic and rising fuel prices were potentially a great catalyst to moving away from cars but it's depressing to see the last of the cycling/walking improvements in my city that were installed during covid have now been removed. I was doing a commuting survey and previously it was focused on getting people to walk/cycle but this time the tone was very different, there was a brief mention of walking and cycling but the focus was on electric cars and boiled down to why are not buying an electric car and what would convince you to buy one? The fact that I was already commuting to work sustainably without using a car didn't seem to matter.

As you say there's many more problems with cars than just their pollution and when passing by gridlocked streets here packed with cars in every direction, more cars regardless of how they're powered is not the solution. I have a new puppy and if I didn't cycle I'd probably be seriously looking at replacing my car for an electric one which could cheaply do the frequent trips to come back to the puppy that walking is too slow for. However when I was in the same position 12 years ago with a new puppy I needed to quickly get home at lunch for the diesel car I had was unsuited to short trips and it was wasteful so I bit the bullet, bought a nice bike and forced myself to use that. It was a hassle to begin with but I was surprised to find once I was in the habit and my fitness was better I preferred the bike to the car, I could easily get where I wanted without worrying about traffic and park up wherever I needed with minimal running costs and improved my health as well. It was a great decision with numerous other benefits as well and I've heavily reduced my car usage to the point I rarely use it since the bike can handle most of my needs. However with electric cars being pushed so hard, poor support for walking and cycling I can see people in the same situation now going to electric cars instead and continuing the many problems cars present.

The other fact which has recently come to my attention, Forecast increase in road traffic volumes of up to 51% by 2050 compared to 2015 volumes.

That's just not sustainable without a lot more road building.
 

Harpers Tate

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Indeed. And it's not going to change unless and until the government uses taxpayer money in quantity to improve the overall proposition for the entire suite of {not driving} as a single product. That's everything from walking to cycling to buses and trains - and all integrated. Buses connect with trains. Through ticketing - not determined by county boundaries. Cycles on trains. Pricing levels commensurate with the marginal cost of driving including where a small group travels together and allowing further for the unavoidable disadvantage in convenience {not driving} has vs. driving. And so on.
 

reddragon

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I agree and I think that's the question the OP was asking, not petrol/diesel vs electric cars as most of the thread has been. What concerns me with discussions on electric cars is not only will people boast about using their electric car for trips better suited to walking or cycling (short frequent trips in built up areas) but constantly promoting and encouraging others to do the same. Even worse I've seen some particularly vocal electric car proponents rubbishing cycling which says a lot about how green their motives really are.

The combination of the pandemic and rising fuel prices were potentially a great catalyst to moving away from cars but it's depressing to see the last of the cycling/walking improvements in my city that were installed during covid have now been removed. I was doing a commuting survey and previously it was focused on getting people to walk/cycle but this time the tone was very different, there was a brief mention of walking and cycling but the focus was on electric cars and boiled down to why are not buying an electric car and what would convince you to buy one? The fact that I was already commuting to work sustainably without using a car didn't seem to matter.

As you say there's many more problems with cars than just their pollution and when passing by gridlocked streets here packed with cars in every direction, more cars regardless of how they're powered is not the solution. I have a new puppy and if I didn't cycle I'd probably be seriously looking at replacing my car for an electric one which could cheaply do the frequent trips to come back to the puppy that walking is too slow for. However when I was in the same position 12 years ago with a new puppy I needed to quickly get home at lunch for the diesel car I had was unsuited to short trips and it was wasteful so I bit the bullet, bought a nice bike and forced myself to use that. It was a hassle to begin with but I was surprised to find once I was in the habit and my fitness was better I preferred the bike to the car, I could easily get where I wanted without worrying about traffic and park up wherever I needed with minimal running costs and improved my health as well. It was a great decision with numerous other benefits as well and I've heavily reduced my car usage to the point I rarely use it since the bike can handle most of my needs. However with electric cars being pushed so hard, poor support for walking and cycling I can see people in the same situation now going to electric cars instead and continuing the many problems cars present.
It is unlikely that the change from ICE legacy cars to EVs will have any real impact as the reasons for changing modes of transport differ from the choice of vehicle type.

I switched from ICE to EV in 2016 and it has made no difference whatsoever at all in my transport of choice, but yes the incredibly low costs per mile, 1.0p/mile in my case for energy has to be balanced with tyre wear at 1.5p/mile, depreciation / excess miles rates of 8p/mile etc

I have to drive from home due to the rural hilly nature of where I live. I would like to be able to cycle to the station but zero footpaths & no cycle facilities is a big blocker. I cycled in my younger days but the hill home is a killer, I have an e-bike now but no storage at the station or in the village is a big problem.

I have the will but dire facilities and very dangerous roads to use.
 

Bletchleyite

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It is unlikely that the change from ICE legacy cars to EVs will have any real impact as the reasons for changing modes of transport differ from the choice of vehicle type.

I switched from ICE to EV in 2016 and it has made no difference whatsoever at all in my transport of choice, but yes the incredibly low costs per mile, 1.0p/mile in my case for energy has to be balanced with tyre wear at 1.5p/mile, depreciation / excess miles rates of 8p/mile etc

I have to drive from home due to the rural hilly nature of where I live. I would like to be able to cycle to the station but zero footpaths & no cycle facilities is a big blocker. I cycled in my younger days but the hill home is a killer, I have an e-bike now but no storage at the station or in the village is a big problem.

I have the will but dire facilities and very dangerous roads to use.

One thing I've long found surprising is that in the North West a good many rural roads (down to B level) have pavements, and sometimes even have full Dutch style cycle facilities with a separate pavement (e.g. the A59 towards Ormskirk). Yet the South East doesn't. I do think it would make a lot of difference to implement a policy of progressively building these.

For instance, other than a very long and hilly diversion via Winslow, there is no safe cycle route from MK to Buckingham - any sensible route requires at least two miles on the A421 or A422 on which people drive quite aggressively. This to me is as bizarre as it is unacceptable. Just two miles of additional off-road cycle path on either road (and there's plenty of room for it in farmers' fields - there is no development - and the A421 side even has a spare bridge for it!) would I don't doubt create more cycling. I have a friend who lives in Buckingham and works in MK, and were that issue solved he says he definitely would cycle commute. And I'd cycle to visit him in summer at least, too.
 

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I think the issue is that a parcel of field by a road big enough for a house costs as much as a house up north even though it's in green belt and that everyone fights to 'protect' the verge / hedge or whatever!

Between my house, most of the route has a highway verge overgrown with weeds & brambles, ripped up by 4x4s and delivery trucks yet the locals are very anti-footpaths as they would make the place somehow look like a city!

The village & station have the absolute minimal provision for cycle parking although at both locations there seems to be some construction work going on removing access to both sets of bent bits of metal!
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the issue is that a parcel of field by a road big enough for a house costs as much as a house up north even though it's in green belt and that everyone fights to 'protect' the verge / hedge or whatever!

You don't need a parcel of land big enough for a house to create a shared cycle and footpath, just a couple of metres. In some cases it could be done without any extra land take by either narrowing the road or culverting drainage ditches.
 

reddragon

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You don't need a parcel of land big enough for a house to create a shared cycle and footpath, just a couple of metres. In some cases it could be done without any extra land take by either narrowing the road or culverting drainage ditches.
Sadly my backward looking highway authority refuses to narrow any roads for that as it 'may' increase the danger to car drivers.
 

reddragon

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And probably isn't permitted by the design manual either
Design codes are codes of practise, guidance and can be interpreted. If you look at them purely from the point of view of the car you get a different outcome to prioritising the risk to pedestrians. The same issues arise with setting speed limits.

In my village the streets, lanes and even cul-de-sacs have a 60 mph limit over much of it with the 30 mph limited to the older centre. The council argues that there is no speeding to justify a speed limit!

The school is accessed via an unlit road, the main one through the village with no paths, safe routes or anything but muddy verges. The Council argue that pavements are a 'significant engineering challenge' FFS on a public highway verge on a hill so no drainage requirement and that narrowing the road will restrict traffic flows and that traffic calming does not suit a village location.

You can imagine if even that is beyond them the needs of cyclists & pedestrians doesn't exist!

This is why EVs are not being oversold, it is because public transport, cycling & walking is of no priority!

If we are talking 60mph rural roads, most likely it would be possible were the speed limit to be reduced.

If I cross the border into the neighbouring county it is as if we were decades apart on highway matters!

Possibly. I don't know enough about the subject to comment further, but perhaps @The Ham does?

The codes give advice on what measures you should consider when adding cycle lanes and footpaths, traffic calming etc.

Changes to sight line, speed limits and lighting are amongst them
 

The Ham

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Possibly. I don't know enough about the subject to comment further, but perhaps @The Ham does?

There's actually very little which would stop the highway authority from narrowing most roads if they felt minded to do so.

Without knowing the road in question it would be hard to speculate, however subject to the mix of traffic it is possible to have roads of 7.3m in width for areas with high HGV content especially when they are turning (such as industrial estates) 6.1m in width (more limited HGV use but used by buses), where there's no buses or can go down to 5.5m (as above but no bus route), 4.8m is also acceptable where HGV use would be infrequent (typically low enough that it's unlikely that 2 HGV's would meet) whilst 4.1m allows two cars to pass but would need junctions and widenings to allow cars to pass the fairly rare HGV.

The width of the road doesn't normally officially come into play when determining speed limits, however you certainly wouldn't want a 4.1m wide road on a 60mph limit (unless other factors were limiting vehicle speeds). The reason for this is that few roads actually meet the official design standards unless they are new build roads (i.e. within the last 60 years).

By the sounds of things the reply is that of a council which doesn't want to do anything, if you really wanted to call their bluff you could ask them for the copy of the Road Safety Audit which confirms that the provision of a footway would cause risk to traffic (it's almost certainly that no such document exists as no one has even looked at what the provision of a footway would even look like).

It's also worth noting that (assuming that there's likely to be a fairly strong demand for a walking route, such as to a station, school, etc.) that semi informal paths (i.e. with stones to stop then getting muddy but the land is leased from the farmer rather than adopted by the council) can be implemented.

There's an ongoing cost in the lease, however the annual cost of leasing a 3m strip of farm land isn't all that high as you're basically paying for the loss of crop growing capacity. It's almost certainly something that a Parish Council could reasonably afford if the County Council would fund the upfront costs for the works to the path and the required extra fencing.

As it's got a lease on it, it doesn't become a right of way so there's nothing stopping the landowner selling the land on, and although any development would almost certainly need to prove a replacement route; such a route could be provided anywhere suitable rather than along that exact route without the need to consult on diverting a public right of way.

Farmers, of course, may still not want to do so, however it does ensure a guaranteed income for very little effort for a strip of land that's unlikely to be overly productive anyway. However worth the likely extra bit of wildlife refuge it's possible that it could encourage the sorts of things which are the predictors of things which harm their crops/livestock.
 

JohnMcL7

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It is unlikely that the change from ICE legacy cars to EVs will have any real impact as the reasons for changing modes of transport differ from the choice of vehicle type.

I switched from ICE to EV in 2016 and it has made no difference whatsoever at all in my transport of choice, but yes the incredibly low costs per mile, 1.0p/mile in my case for energy has to be balanced with tyre wear at 1.5p/mile, depreciation / excess miles rates of 8p/mile etc

I have to drive from home due to the rural hilly nature of where I live. I would like to be able to cycle to the station but zero footpaths & no cycle facilities is a big blocker. I cycled in my younger days but the hill home is a killer, I have an e-bike now but no storage at the station or in the village is a big problem.

I have the will but dire facilities and very dangerous roads to use.
You're saying you don't think it makes any difference but then you also say you can't cycle regardless but that's not what I was referring to, I was talking about cases where people can easily walk, cycle or some other form of transport who are now being actively encouraged to use an electric vehicle for short wasteful trips because it's 'green' and that's all there is to it. Cycling clearly needs huge amounts of investment spent on it and a fundamental shift in the attitude towards it which doesn't feel like it was every likely but much less so now with rising fuel prices instead of considering non-car alternatives people can just switch to electric cars.
 

reddragon

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You're saying you don't think it makes any difference but then you also say you can't cycle regardless but that's not what I was referring to, I was talking about cases where people can easily walk, cycle or some other form of transport who are now being actively encouraged to use an electric vehicle for short wasteful trips because it's 'green' and that's all there is to it. Cycling clearly needs huge amounts of investment spent on it and a fundamental shift in the attitude towards it which doesn't feel like it was every likely but much less so now with rising fuel prices instead of considering non-car alternatives people can just switch to electric cars.
I am saying that EVs will not make any difference from the status quo.

If as in other countries the UK put in a genuine effort for walking, cycling & public transport it would be transformative.

Like this: -

 
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