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Warrington's Own Buses operate 20 buses without MOT

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From the Warrington Guardian:

MORE than 20 Warrington buses have been taken out of service after they were operating illegally without a valid MOT.

Replacement buses have been arranged while Warrington’s Own Buses ‘rectify’ the issue.

The buses were found to have expired MOTs.

A spokesperson for the company said: “Buses were temporarily exempted from MOT during the Covid pandemic and we are investigating if this has led to a clerical error with the extended test dates.

“We have responded immediately to this issue and would like to reassure customers that buses are maintained to the highest standards, with an average 100% MOT first time pass rate.



“Buses are also inspected every month and our maintenance system is independently audited.”

This follows the news that over 40 bus services were cancelled in the town before 9am this morning, Wednesday, due to ‘operational issues’.

Commuters described the bus service as ‘abysmal’ while others claimed elderly people were ‘sat in the freezing cold’ waiting for buses that hadn’t turned up.
 
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pdeaves

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Can't have an average 100% MOT pass rate. You either have 100% or not.
That is a rather odd statement (the quote, not your response!). It immediately makes me think 'made up excuse trying to hide something', rather than a genuine concern. Of course, the Warrington Guardian may have edited a quote and made it worse.
 

Mwanesh

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I would like to see the Traffic Commissioners answer to this. Would be interesting sitting in the inquiry. Imagine if it was one of the big groups - there would be an uproar.
 

bussnapperwm

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It would be interesting to see what they would supply under FOI regs but they have exempted themselves by viture of the the Cheif Exec owning a singular share
 

bussnapperwm

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They don't share anything under FOI. They have sorted it all so that it's a separate private company and it just so happens that the council owns 99% of the shares I think it works out as.
That's the gist of what I've said
 

Bertie the bus

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Can't have an average 100% MOT pass rate. You either have 100% or not.
You can have an average 100% pass rate if he is talking about a number of years. If it is 100% each year then the average is 100%, though if that is the case a better way of putting it would be we have never had a bus fail its MOT.
 

JetBlast

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You can have an average 100% pass rate if he is talking about a number of years. If it is 100% each year then the average is 100%, though if that is the case a better way of putting it would be we have never had a bus fail its MOT.
Wouldn't that be a "mode" of 100% pass rate rather than average?

If there is 1 figure less than 100% that will bring down the average to under 100. But I guess they could get around it by rounding up.
 

Busaholic

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You can have an average 100% pass rate if he is talking about a number of years. If it is 100% each year then the average is 100%, though if that is the case a better way of putting it would be we have never had a bus fail its MOT.
If it's always 100% the word average is superfluous, which only reinforces the suspicion I have that there is more to this than they're letting on.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Is there any suggestion that the buses are/were unroadworthy? That they would have failed their MOT had it been done on time?

If not, it is a technical/administrative failure which needs to be addressed but it should not concern the public unduly. Nothing to be seen here, move along please.
 

AndrewE

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I had experiences like this with pool cars, both on "the railway" and later in the civil service.
Because BR self-insured we didn't have to do something that would normally alert a private car owner, the cars had a self-insurance disc in the window but I can't remember whether or not there was a tax-disc. Anyway, it came to light that the Road Motor Organisation who were supposed to manage our vehickes for us had just overlooked the car and we were swanning round in an untested and I think untaxed vehicle.
Later the civil service exactly the same happened. They were all estate cars getting on in years and you most certainly would expect MOT failures every time if they were yours...

I too am less concerned about a bus MOT being overlooked: they are much more ruggedly built and I would hope that they see far more maintenance and inspection than any private vehicle.
 
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Cesarcollie

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I had experiences like this with pool cars, both on "the railway" and later in the civil service.
Because BR self-insured we didn't have to do something that would normally alert a private car owner, the cars had a self-insurance disc in the window but I can't remember whether or not there was a tax-disc. Anyway, it came to light that the Road Motor Organisation who were supposed to manage our vehickes for us had just overlooked the car and we were swanning round in an untested and I think untaxed vehicle.
Later the civil service exactly the same happened. They were all estate cars getting on in years and you most certainly would expect MOT failures every time if they were yours...

I too am less concerned about a bus MOT being overlooked: they are much more ruggedly built and I would hope that they see far more maintenance and inspection than any private vehicle.
All true. But nevertheless illegal and the TC will no doubt want a very good explanation……!
 

Baxenden Bank

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All true. But nevertheless illegal and the TC will no doubt want a very good explanation……!
Stated in the article - Coronavirus MOT exemptions period, end thereof overlooked, dealt with as soon as identified by withdrawing services and hiring in vehicles. Continuing to run those vehicles in service, once identified, would be unnacceptable. What is the history of Warrington Transport re immediate prohibitions or deferred notices? (not the correct phase).
 

Titfield

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All true. But nevertheless illegal and the TC will no doubt want a very good explanation……!

The point is that the annual Class VI MOT is part of a system of maintenance which encompasses daily walk round checks (aka first use checks), driver defect reporting and rectification, periodic preventative maintenance checks (PMIs) - the frequency of which is specified on the O licence and must be adhered to, Annual Class VI MOT test. In addition there will be servicing and other maintenance actions for example cleaning.

An operator is required to have a forward planner that clearly shows all these activities as programmed. The planner should also include vehicle road tax, insurance and where appropriate tachograph calibration checks.

The Guide to Maintaining Roadworthiness clearly outlines all the elements required to maintain roadworthiness.

A good system includes regular audits to ensure that any errors / system failures are identified and appropriate remedial actions put in place promptly.

Having 20 vehicles without a current MOT would be seen as a very significant failure of the system which is designed to ensure that vehicles operated are roadworthy ie to ensure the safety of the driver, passengers and all other road users.

Questions must be asked of the scale of this failure and in particular how the Transport Manager allowed this situation to occur.

Was it an audit which identified this system failing?

Added: If a vehicle does not have a current MOT then it may create issues with the operators insurance.
 

Megafuss

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All rather embarrassing for the outfit considering the depot is also an approved MOT testing venue
 
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Is there any suggestion that the buses are/were unroadworthy? That they would have failed their MOT had it been done on time?

If not, it is a technical/administrative failure which needs to be addressed but it should not concern the public unduly. Nothing to be seen here, move along please.
You are commiting an offence, both the company and the driver, good luck getting stopped by the police in your own vehicle with no MOT and telling them not to worry, it's well maintained, it would have passed, it's an administrative oversight, nothing to be seen here.....

Not once, 20 vehicles out multiple times, this would be instant dismissal territory for whoever's job it was to keep them legal.

Not sure how a driver is meant to know wether a vehicle has an MOT or not but they are still committing an offence. My own company sailed close to the wind many times but I never knew of them putting a vehicle out in service with no MOT.

I too am less concerned about a bus MOT being overlooked: they are much more ruggedly built and I would hope that they see far more maintenance and inspection than any private vehicle.

I am sure this sentence has raised a smile to the lips of those of us who work or have worked in the industry.

The cut every corner ethos that is endemic in the industry extends to all parts of it.

Am I the only one who finds it a bit suspicious that a company that does its own MOT's has a 100% pass rate, not once has a bulb blown or a wiper blade not been up to standard?!

Remarkable given that they are not even organised enough to ensure their vehicles are road legal.
 

On the Buses

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You are commiting an offence, both the company and the driver, good luck getting stopped by the police in your own vehicle with no MOT and telling them not to worry, it's well maintained, it would have passed, it's an administrative oversight, nothing to be seen here.....

Not once, 20 vehicles out multiple times, this would be instant dismissal territory for whoever's job it was to keep them legal.

Not sure how a driver is meant to know wether a vehicle has an MOT or not but they are still committing an offence. My own company sailed close to the wind many times but I never knew of them putting a vehicle out in service with no MOT.



I am sure this sentence has raised a smile to the lips of those of us who work or have worked in the industry.

The cut every corner ethos that is endemic in the industry extends to all parts of it.

Am I the only one who finds it a bit suspicious that a company that does its own MOT's has a 100% pass rate, not once has a bulb blown or a wiper blade not been up to standard?!

Remarkable given that they are not even organised enough to ensure their vehicles are road legal.
Specifically on the last point, they don’t MoT their own vehicles. They will be MoTd on their own premises but by a DVSA examiner.
 

Sankey Wire

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Sadly this seems to be the tip of the iceberg at the moment and mismanagement at various levels has exacerbated the haemorrhaging of drivers.

Most services are already running a drastically reduced timetable; the additional cancellations caused by the driver shortage and MOT issue are now beginning to cause real issues for residents. My local route should be half hourly during the day. This afternoon there was a three-hour gap between services!
 

Busaholic

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Sadly this seems to be the tip of the iceberg at the moment and mismanagement at various levels has exacerbated the haemorrhaging of drivers.

Most services are already running a drastically reduced timetable; the additional cancellations caused by the driver shortage and MOT issue are now beginning to cause real issues for residents. My local route should be half hourly during the day. This afternoon there was a three-hour gap between services!
Sounds like another municipal operator is about to bite the dust.
 

markymark2000

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Sounds like another municipal operator is about to bite the dust.
I hope so. Very dodgy how they keep going to be fair. They are only still going because of the dodgy tactics with the council. They do need taking over as it's appalling what goes on behind closed doors. That said, I can't see anyone taking on their work because beyond students (who have to use their buses because of the tap and go passes) and elderly (who have no alternative), they have very few passengers as they have put most passengers off with their sky high fares. The work should go to operators who care for passengers.

If it wasn't for the tactics with the council, their network would be zilch.
 

Sankey Wire

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I hope so. Very dodgy how they keep going to be fair. They are only still going because of the dodgy tactics with the council. They do need taking over as it's appalling what goes on behind closed doors. That said, I can't see anyone taking on their work because beyond students (who have to use their buses because of the tap and go passes) and elderly (who have no alternative), they have very few passengers as they have put most passengers off with their sky high fares. The work should go to operators who care for passengers.

If it wasn't for the tactics with the council, their network would be zilch.
Most politicians have been silent on the issue, due to the ownership structure. It’s a shame as not so long ago the company was a real asset, but over the last 12 years it has been a comedy of errors and with base fares so high it is hard to win back disgruntled passengers. Also, routes have chopped and changed so often that people are no longer familiar with the network.
 

markymark2000

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Most politicians have been silent on the issue, due to the ownership structure. It’s a shame as not so long ago the company was a real asset, but over the last 12 years it has been a comedy of errors and with base fares so high it is hard to win back disgruntled passengers. Also, routes have chopped and changed so often that people are no longer familiar with the network.
But interestingly the 'buses better in public control' brigade miss out WOB and Halton Transport as part of their campaigns.

How is it that 2 municipals that have had major issues are councils ran by the party who is begging for public control.
 

Deerfold

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But interestingly the 'buses better in public control' brigade miss out WOB and Halton Transport as part of their campaigns.

How is it that 2 municipals that have had major issues are councils ran by the party who is begging for public control.
The councils don't run the bus companies. They're legally quite separate.
 

Megafuss

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To be honest. I think all this and others episodes only prove that municpals are no better (or worse for that matter) than what are seen as private/big group operating companies
 

jammy36

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Very dodgy how they keep going to be fair. They are only still going because of the dodgy tactics with the council

Warrington is not an operator that I'm very familiar with, but that is a very bold statement. What are these so called dodgy tactics?

I note there's been mention of high fares a couple of times, but their published fares don't appear particularly outrageous/notably above the norm. Are they especially high, or is it a case of price rises bringing historically low fares back in line with industry norms...?

The MOT issue is worrying, but looks to fall on the side of a system/reporting mechanism error, rather than wilful avoidance and/or slack maintenance. Thankfully there's no suggestion of deliberate operation of unroadworthy vehicles which might result in a licence being revoked as we've seen with some less scrupulous "cowboys" over the years.
 

Roger1973

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A few perspectives -

With buses, the expectation is that when a bus is presented for annual test, it will have been checked thoroughly and prepared to pass. (Traffic Commissioners will look at pass rates.) It's not like most private car owners who use the MOT test as a diagnostic and then get the repairs done.

I would be very surprised if the TC does not have something to say about this.

There was an incident involving a First Manchester bus some years back where a bus was involved in an accident, and while there were no roadworthiness issues, it was found that the MOT had lapsed (Manchester Evening News article here) - I seem to remember that one issue of the trade press had an article about that, an article about a public inquiry over maintenance at First Potteries, and a First Bus job advert for a regional engineering manager or similar...
 

neilmc

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I'm not an expert on Warrington transoort, but I was shocked a couple of years ago when visiting family in Warrington to find the bus station utterly empty at Sunday teatime, perusal of the timetable boards indicated that there we no buses operating in the town on Sunday evenings! Looking at the timetables now, it is noticeable how many contract services are run by WOB, but this has been achieved by pulling buses off of other services at peak time, so that the morning and evening so-called peaks have a WORSE service than midday! Where there is a weekday evening service, it seems to be at the useless frequency of every two hours which makes going into town by bus for the evening an impossibility for most passengers. I cannot see any individual fare tables but £23 for a weekly ticket for what is basically a small town is expensive (GMPTE weekly bus pass is under £20 for a much larger area) as is a day ticket for $5.95 likewise expensive, when travelling to Leeds recently a WYPTE day bus ticket across the whole of West Yorkshire was only £5.50 and a First Day Leeds ticket £4.70. These are just two off-the-cuff examples, but it doesn't look a good comparison.

I've been an advocate for local authority control of public transport but Warrington is certainly not a place I would use as an example of what can be done under municipal control, I cannot see that local residents derive any benefit whatsoever. The WOB website states:

"With seven non-executive directors on our board, as well as three locally based, full-time management directors, we combine the best of private sector experience with public sector ethos, allowing local people to make local decisions about the running of local services."

Do "local" people want a worse service and higher fares than they would get in, say, Preston or Carlisle (quick pull up of timetables to verify evening and Sunday services) which are run by private companies? What kind of "public sector ethos" is this?
 

Dai Corner

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Do "local" people want a worse service and higher fares than they would get in, say, Preston or Carlisle (quick pull up of timetables to verify evening and Sunday services) which are run by private companies? What kind of "public sector ethos" is this?
One that prioritises mandatory public services like education and social services over discretionary ones like public transport while keeping within a tight overall budget?

Newport's municipal bus company has given up evening and Sunday services entirely. All we have now is four minibuses operating a DRT service, funded by Transport for Wales (ie the Welsh Government). That's for a city with a population of nearly 150,000. One reason is that they're in dire financial straits, owing huge sums to the pension scheme. It probably helps driver retention and recruitment too. They've had some maintenance issues that attracted the attention of the Traffic Commissioner too.

I do t know if Warrington is in a similar position.
 
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