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Could Carstairs be by-passed?

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Watershed

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Must take issue with the poster who said 390s Pendolinos can and do travel direct from Carstairs station to Edinburgh . If he cares to look at RTT it clearly shows trains proceeding south and reversing at Carstairs S Jct and then back to Edinburgh . They alternately are booked via Shotts
One such service runs from Polmadie about 1030 to Edinburgh late Sunday morning . Voyagers and 397s go direct
Some Pendolinos do that, primarily because it keeps the set the "right" way around (whereas Voyagers and 397s do not have a "right" orientation, so turning them doesn't matter). But some definitely do run direct, for example this service on a Sunday.
 
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najaB

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Must take issue with the poster who said 390s Pendolinos can and do travel direct from Carstairs station to Edinburgh . If he cares to look at RTT it clearly shows trains proceeding south and reversing at Carstairs S Jct and then back to Edinburgh . They alternately are booked via Shotts
That's done to avoid turning them around. If it ran GLC -> EDB -> EUS then it would be the wrong way around at Euston.
 

Falcon1200

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That's done to avoid turning them around. If it ran GLC -> EDB -> EUS then it would be the wrong way around at Euston.

Indeed. Occasionally Virgin Trains (and possibly Avanti still ?) asked for a wrong-turned Pendolino from Glasgow C to Euston to turn via the Carstairs triangle. The problem being that the obvious route, Station-East Jc (reverse)-South Jc is not signalled for this move at East Jc, so the actual move is South Jc (reverse)-East Jc (reverse)-Station (reverse). The passengers must wonder what on earth is going on ! But there is no doubt that Pendolinos can and do run between the Station and East Jcs.
 

driver9000

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Am I right on thinking Pendolinos cannot go from Carstairs station direct to Edinburgh

Whenever I've seen Edinburgh to Polmadie empties formed of Pendolino units they reverse behind a ground signal on the Up Main just south of Carstairs South Junction.
 

alangla

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Was it not policy previously for units to be turned in the morning & evening by going Polmadie-Central-Shields and back to Polmadie via the direct route then on to Edinburgh via Carstairs or reverse?
The unit would then be the correct way round from Carstairs East to Edinburgh.

IIRC, the class 90 & mk3 North Berwick sets couldn’t go round the curve & had to go via south junction.

I was through Carstairs a couple of weeks ago and there’s a huge construction compound to the west of the line, there’s definitely something happening there anyway.
 

Noddy

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The OS map shows the remains of a former bypass line from about a mile on the Carlisle side of the station (north of the Clyde bridge) to about a mile on the Edinburgh side of the station (immediately east of the bridge over Carnwath Rd/Lampits Rd). it was closed much longer ago than the 1980s. I'm sure the exact date of closure will have been discussed in previous threads.

Try the 1880s. Century old OS maps show the direct line from the Float viaduct towards Edinburgh disused by then.

Out of interest why was this ‘curve’ abandoned as early as the late 19th century? Looking at the old OS maps on the National Library of Scotland the alignment looks much better for higher speed travel (even if not perfect).

 

60159

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No, I don't think you are.

In the first iteration of the Pendolino services, that's to say when there were 2 trains an hour London-Manchester, there was also an Edinburgh-London service. It left Edinburgh around 10am and was reasonably fast, that's to say that it used the Trent Valley route.

Be that as it may, it started ECS from Polmadie to Carstairs, from where it ran in service to Edinburgh.

I know because I used it once. There was a horribly early 05.xx Manchester Piccadilly-Glasgow Voyager service (it went via Wigan actually but the route wasn't electrified then anyway) which deposited me at Carstairs. Then I got to watch the scenery before the first GNER Glasgow-Edinburgh-King's Cross service ran past without stopping, then the ECS Pendolino from Polmadie arrived and I got on for the run to Edinburgh.

So unless something has changed since then (before 2010 for sure), Pendolinos can go from Carstairs direct to Edinburgh because it happened daily and I've done it.

EDIT The Edinburgh-London service was 1M14 10:10 Edinburgh arriving Euston 15:23, calling only at Rugby and Watford south of Crewe. The balancing working was 1S82 16:46 Euston-Edinburgh, first stop Stafford, which ran empty to Polmadie afterwards and didn't (to my recollection) offer a service to Carstairs en route. These services only lasted a couple of years until the full Pendolino service was introduced. This is from the summer 2007 working timetable, which is just about the most recent printed WTT I possess, after which time they were replaced by electronic PDF versions.
I recall a member of staff at Haymarket advising me to go to Pl 2 for the 10.15 to London but that was the other 10.15 to zLondon as there were simultaneous departures in different directions.

I recall a member of staff at Haymarket advising me to go to Pl 2 for the 10.15 to London but that .9was the other 10.15 to zLondon as there were simultaneous departures in different directions.
Sorry Pl1
 

XAM2175

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Out of interest why was this ‘curve’ abandoned as early as the late 19th century? Looking at the old OS maps on the National Library of Scotland the alignment looks much better for higher speed travel (even if not perfect).

Railscot quotes the reason given in the OS Name Book 1860:
 

Taunton

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Does anybody have diagrams or similar showing what was changed in the 1980s remodelling?
I was using Carstairs in the 1970s, changing for Edinburgh, and the current layout, completed for the 1974 electrification, is pretty much what was put in for that, unless someone will correct me.

Always seemed a bit strange. The Down main which passes away from the platforms on the south side was realigned for high speed, but althouth there is a second track there used as a down loop, the Up main continued to curve around the island platform, at medium speed, which was heavily banked for the curve. Up trains at speed used to come as a surprise to connecting passengers waiting on the narrow platform, and drivers would generally want to give a good horn on approach if they saw a waiting crowd.

The Edinburgh line joined the Up main by an extremely tight curve which had what, in road terms, would be called "adverse camber" by the points to allow the Up main itself to be superelevated for the curve. Then there was an equally sharp crossover to the Down platform, isolated on a loop. Always seemed strange that the Edinburgh line into the station was reduced to single track, while the link directly southwards, which I never saw used, retained double track.

Until 1974 there was a very sparse service on the Carstairs-Edinburgh line, but afterwards there was a good all day operation of trains, to both Liverpool/Manchester and to Birmingham, and they very rapidly became well used. The layout suited trains dividing between Glasgow and Edinburgh, which of course nowadays has been completely given up, all the Edinburgh trains take the direct line south, and there's just an odd residual service to Carstairs station itself. As described above there was originally an even more direct and straight link from the Edinburgh line to the south, whose earthworks can still be seen, rather strangely this was given up as long ago as the 1860s when the branch from Carstairs eastwards to Dolphinton (a real no-hoper, seemingly just built by the Caledonian to spite the North British coming to Dolphinton from the other direction) was built across it at right-angles.

Ideally the main Glasgow lines should both pass the station on the south side, the Edinburgh line should reinstate the 1860 link, and the station either be put on a loop or be considered if it is really justified any more. Going by the odd few trains nowadays, probably not.
 

CEN60

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I was using Carstairs in the 1970s, changing for Edinburgh, and the current layout, completed for the 1974 electrification, is pretty much what was put in for that, unless someone will correct me.

Always seemed a bit strange. The Down main which passes away from the platforms on the south side was realigned for high speed, but althouth there is a second track there used as a down loop, the Up main continued to curve around the island platform, at medium speed, which was heavily banked for the curve. Up trains at speed used to come as a surprise to connecting passengers waiting on the narrow platform, and drivers would generally want to give a good horn on approach if they saw a waiting crowd.

The Edinburgh line joined the Up main by an extremely tight curve which had what, in road terms, would be called "adverse camber" by the points to allow the Up main itself to be superelevated for the curve. Then there was an equally sharp crossover to the Down platform, isolated on a loop. Always seemed strange that the Edinburgh line into the station was reduced to single track, while the link directly southwards, which I never saw used, retained double track.

Until 1974 there was a very sparse service on the Carstairs-Edinburgh line, but afterwards there was a good all day operation of trains, to both Liverpool/Manchester and to Birmingham, and they very rapidly became well used. The layout suited trains dividing between Glasgow and Edinburgh, which of course nowadays has been completely given up, all the Edinburgh trains take the direct line south, and there's just an odd residual service to Carstairs station itself. As described above there was originally an even more direct and straight link from the Edinburgh line to the south, whose earthworks can still be seen, rather strangely this was given up as long ago as the 1860s when the branch from Carstairs eastwards to Dolphinton (a real no-hoper, seemingly just built by the Caledonian to spite the North British coming to Dolphinton from the other direction) was built across it at right-angles.

Ideally the main Glasgow lines should both pass the station on the south side, the Edinburgh line should reinstate the 1860 link, and the station either be put on a loop or be considered if it is really justified any more. Going by the odd few trains nowadays, probably not.
In terms of the platforms on a loop - there was an overall "rationalization" layout developed about 4 years ago or so that solved almost all of the "perceived" problems that existed with the layout (including moving the platforms north and not on the fast lines - loops extended north and south - main line EPS speeds extended north and conventional speeds increased - deemed "too expensive" at the time. Rumours are that the current redevelopment costs are approaching the original estimate. The current redevelopment is seem by some as a "turd" polishing exercise! - It is an improvement on what is there but as they say on Bullseye - "here's what you could have won!"
 

topydre

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The OS map shows the remains of a former bypass line from about a mile on the Carlisle side of the station (north of the Clyde bridge) to about a mile on the Edinburgh side of the station (immediately east of the bridge over Carnwath Rd/Lampits Rd). it was closed much longer ago than the 1980s. I'm sure the exact date of closure will have been discussed in previous threads.
It's shown as "dismantled railway" on a 1896/1897 OS Map!!
edit: out of use in 1860!
 
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QueensCurve

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Saw this article today:


Does anybody have diagrams or similar showing what was changed in the 1980s remodelling?
I don't recall any remodelling in the 1980s. I travelled on trains potion worked at Carstairs frequently beween 1980 and 1985. As far as I now the layout is the same now as in 1985 and that layout dated from the time of electrification in the early 1970s.
 

jfollows

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I don't recall any remodelling in the 1980s. I travelled on trains potion worked at Carstairs frequently beween 1980 and 1985. As far as I now the layout is the same now as in 1985 and that layout dated from the time of electrification in the early 1970s.
I agree.
Post #19 earlier has the 2005 layout which I think is current also.
Here's the 1974 post-electrification layout, originally from OS Nock's book I think.
I don't see much difference.
Latest section appendix also: (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional Appendix full PDFs/Scotland Sectional Appendix March 2022.pdf)

EDIT I am guessing that the article quoted in the previous post was the subject of lazy authorship by thinking (but not checking) that the 1970s remodelling took place ten years later.
1648734435144.png
 

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Dr Hoo

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From my time in Scotland in the later 1980s I seem to recall that the construction of the Ravenstruther coal terminal led to minor changes in functionality relating to 'wrong line'/bi-directional working for trains serving the terminal.

These changes were of no relevance to through movements of passenger trains and did not constitute 're-modelling' in any meaningful sense.
 

jfollows

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The "local instructions" mentioned in the Sectional Appendix extract above are:
1648736185603.png
SC001 - GRETNA JN TO GLASGOW CENTRAL (VIA BEATTOCK)

CARSTAIRS To Lanark Jn

Trains may be permitted to run over the Down line in the Up direction as follows :-
a) trains to and from Ravenstruther Coal Terminal

b) during an emergency or other exceptional circumstance, any train may be permitted to run over the Down line in the Up direction, throughout between Lanark Jn and Carstairs. Drivers of such trains wil be advised of the circumstances at Lanark Jn and must, thereafter, obey any instructions given by the signaller.

Dated: 02/12/06
 
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The Planner

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we wouldn't want you to get into any trouble. Give us a hint - are we going to be pleased with the scope of this remodelling?!?
It may be difficult to visualise from words, from the details I have effectively the Up Main and Down platform loop swap over, so the main lines stay to the east with no access to the platforms. You will have an Up platform line that is bi-di goes through what is P1 currently (as per Quail) and a down loop that serves P2. The Down passenger loop is altered so the down sidings are accessed from it.
Carstairs South Jn goes from 30mph to 50mph crossing between the mains and 40mph towards Edinburgh but still a single lead. Main lines go up 100/120EPS. Up Passenger loop is 60at the north end and 40 through the station and round the chord to Carstairs East.
 

jfollows

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It may be difficult to visualise from words, from the details I have effectively the Up Main and Down platform loop swap over, so the main lines stay to the east with no access to the platforms. You will have an Up platform line that is bi-di goes through what is P1 currently (as per Quail) and a down loop that serves P2. The Down passenger loop is altered so the down sidings are accessed from it.
Carstairs South Jn goes from 30mph to 50mph crossing between the mains and 40mph towards Edinburgh but still a single lead. Main lines go up 100/120EPS. Up Passenger loop is 60at the north end and 40 through the station and round the chord to Carstairs East.
From what you're saying, I'm visualising the main lines to the west of the station, on the left-hand side still when going north. Am I right or am I mis-interpreting what you're saying? Thanks!

Carstairs Quail/TRACKmaps (Scotland & Isle of Man SEVENTH EDITION 2021) diagram attached:
 

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The Planner

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From what you're saying, I'm visualising the main lines to the west of the station, on the left-hand side still when going north. Am I right or am I mis-interpreting what you're saying? Thanks!
Yes, you are right, it is still early!
 

jfollows

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Yes, you are right, it is still early!
I once handed in some homework, in 1977 it will have been, and I hastily added to the bottom something along the lines of "if east were west and west were east, the answers to this question would be correct". My teacher was not impressed! But I still have to think twice or three times about which is which to this day ........
 

d9009alycidon

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we wouldn't want you to get into any trouble. Give us a hint - are we going to be pleased with the scope of this remodelling?!?
Some experienced civil engineers I have spoken to were not impressed by the lack of ambition shown by the plan. The Planner has described the project accurately.
 

gingertom

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Some experienced civil engineers I have spoken to were not impressed by the lack of ambition shown by the plan. The Planner has described the project accurately.
no doubt the lack of ambition is matched with the lack of budget.

I also think ScotGov won't want to be paying for an improvement scheme that benefits National services and not Scotrail.
 

MarkyT

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It may be difficult to visualise from words, from the details I have effectively the Up Main and Down platform loop swap over, so the main lines stay to the east with no access to the platforms. You will have an Up platform line that is bi-di goes through what is P1 currently (as per Quail) and a down loop that serves P2. The Down passenger loop is altered so the down sidings are accessed from it.
Carstairs South Jn goes from 30mph to 50mph crossing between the mains and 40mph towards Edinburgh but still a single lead. Main lines go up 100/120EPS. Up Passenger loop is 60at the north end and 40 through the station and round the chord to Carstairs East.
All very sensible by the sounds of it for the station area, getting both mains clear of the platforms. And none of it actually prevents an additional faster Edinburgh alignment being spliced in later roughly following the abandoned line, if desired.
 

snowball

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I once handed in some homework, in 1977 it will have been, and I hastily added to the bottom something along the lines of "if east were west and west were east, the answers to this question would be correct". My teacher was not impressed! But I still have to think twice or three times about which is which to this day ........
In the recently published plans for the HS2 Manchester branch there are two places where labels "eastbound" and "westbound" are, I believe, swapped - and both in places where the error is likely to cause most confusion!
 
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