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Is there a threat to the present continuing usage of the UK landline phone system?

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AY1975

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Sound advice that will unfortunately not reach enough of the more vulnerable customers.

Open Reach comes up with the rather less helpful:

While this is true, someone going door-to-door with an impressive looking id-card in an orange jacket with 'Telecoms' or something similar on the back may well be able to persuade one of the more vulnerable members of the community that 'equipment' means just about anything including "new digital wiring" which is necessary to connect the "equipment" to the (some technical term designed to bamboozle the householder).
I suppose for those households that don't have an internet connection but want to keep a landline after 2025, the changeover could potentially be as big an upheaval as the conversion from town gas to natural gas was in about the late 1960s/early '70s. That affected every home in the country, though (except presumably those that were all-electric) whereas this will only affect a minority (albeit not an insignificant minority) of households.

I've started a separate thread on the changeover from town to natural gas at
 
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david1212

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I was aware that the ISDN system installed by BT at work around 10 years ago would be ended by 2025 because after a fault a VOIP system was installed. However I was not aware that the basic PSTN system was also under threat.

I have a hearing loss which is the primary reason I only have a PAYG mobile phone which is mostly off and very few people know the number. Even with mobile phones targetted at the elderly ( subjective but a good few years before I am in that age group ) that ring louder hearing around the house is practically impossible.

For the landline I have a set of three DECT phones specifically for the hearing impaired that do ring significantly louder than any mobile I have tried plus a fixed phone and a ringer on the landing. Even so I miss calls. Suitable wi-fi VOIP phones would theoretically work instead. A VOIP mobile phone app would not.
 

The Ham

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I was aware that the ISDN system installed by BT at work around 10 years ago would be ended by 2025 because after a fault a VOIP system was installed. However I was not aware that the basic PSTN system was also under threat.

I have a hearing loss which is the primary reason I only have a PAYG mobile phone which is mostly off and very few people know the number. Even with mobile phones targetted at the elderly ( subjective but a good few years before I am in that age group ) that ring louder hearing around the house is practically impossible.

For the landline I have a set of three DECT phones specifically for the hearing impaired that do ring significantly louder than any mobile I have tried plus a fixed phone and a ringer on the landing. Even so I miss calls. Suitable wi-fi VOIP phones would theoretically work instead. A VOIP mobile phone app would not.

VOIP mobile phone apps can be used, of course there's nothing stopping you having various handsets in the house as a ringer and then picking up on your mobile if you so wished. With a PC app as well you could even have your computer as another ringer.

At work I have an app on my PC, a handset and my mobile phone app, it is possible for all to ring (for the sanity of my colleagues my mobile app doesn't ring when I'm in the office and whilst my PC does only on my headset) and me to answer on whichever device I want to.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible to enable your smart speaker to be able to ring when you have a call. Likewise potentially even use it to answer your call (not ideal for personal calls in a busy household, but I suspect the tech companies would like to be able to have another feature as to why you should buy one).
 

Grumbler

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No-one on PSTN will be forced to switch to a service delivered via the public internet, which is what the term VOIP is often thought to mean. What will happen is that the analogue phone will be plugged into a device (router) powered from the subscriber's own electricity supply to connect with the telco's network. The digital standard for the connection will be the same standard as currently used to send data between computer networks (Internet Protocol), as are mobile phone connections. Eventually copper landlines will be replaced by fibre optic lines, which will require yet another device requiring a power supply at the subscriber's premises to convert signals from optical to electrical and vice-versa. If you want more information then here is a good place to start https://www.futureofvoice.co.uk/
 

Devonian

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For the landline I have a set of three DECT phones specifically for the hearing impaired that do ring significantly louder than any mobile I have tried plus a fixed phone and a ringer on the landing. Even so I miss calls. Suitable wi-fi VOIP phones would theoretically work instead. A VOIP mobile phone app would not.
I have extension wiring supporting two 'ordinary' telephones and an extension bell plugged into my VOIP system: so all the kit that is used to provide amplified/visual ringing indication for anyone who needs it should be able to work.

What needs to be a lot clearer in this changeover is that it is possible to reconnect people's extension wiring to the VOIP output of the modem/telephone adapter, so people do not necessarily have to give up or replace their entire existing telephony system to accommodate VOIP. Obviously it is easier (requiring no engineer's visit) and commercially better for a company to suggest that a customer must take a new set of telephone handsets that are locked to the company's systems and which may provide a subtle barrier to future switching... but it's not the only way of doing it.
 

Ediswan

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Maybe Storm Arwen will help focus minds (but I doubt it). Some of those affected by the storm have found that the traditional landline was the only means of commuication still working. No power, no mobile signal, for serveral days. None of the suggested small scale UPS units would keep VoIP hardware working for that length of time.
 

najaB

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Maybe Storm Arwen will help focus minds (but I doubt it). Some of those affected by the storm have found that the traditional landline was the only means of commuication still working. No power, no mobile signal, for serveral days. None of the suggested small scale UPS units would keep VoIP hardware working for that length of time.
But how often does this happen? Certainly for most people it will have been a decade or more since they were last without power for that long a period.
 

GusB

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Maybe Storm Arwen will help focus minds (but I doubt it). Some of those affected by the storm have found that the traditional landline was the only means of commuication still working. No power, no mobile signal, for serveral days. None of the suggested small scale UPS units would keep VoIP hardware working for that length of time.
Some of those affected by the storm will also have found that phone lines are as susceptible to falling trees as power lines. While I have a relatively fast fibre-to-the-cabinet (FTTC) connection, the connection into the house comes from a pole. Had any of those lines been brought down I'd have no service at all, be it analogue or digital.
 

Ediswan

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Some of those affected by the storm will also have found that phone lines are as susceptible to falling trees as power lines. While I have a relatively fast fibre-to-the-cabinet (FTTC) connection, the connection into the house comes from a pole. Had any of those lines been brought down I'd have no service at all, be it analogue or digital.
Very true. I did wonder how their phone line survived, but it clearly had. Underground services are not immune to problems either. Flooding. Tree roots. Diggers. No easy/cheap solution.
 

Pete_uk

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I'm a bit late to the thread so sorry if I am repeating what others have said.

2025 seems optimistic to fibre everything up!

My understanding is that a converter box with a battery will be installed in the home so you should be able to carry on with your existing phone set up in your home. A small phone style bettery will probably last a good week or so.

It will be interesting what happens to those who have non openreach fibre, some places around here have Gigaclear, but given it will all be IP data it doesn't really matter where the bits go as long as there is a record of where the phone number is registered to (in case of a silent 999 call for example)
 

87 027

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2025 seems optimistic to fibre everything up!
Indeed it is! A few years ago the National Infrastructure Commission thought that it could be done by 2033 at a stretch. BoJo declared that was "ludicrously unambitious" (Daily Telegraph article in summer 2019), and when he became PM the timetable was accelerated to 2025. However, as reality sunk in, that was watered down last year to 85% by 2025 in the Treasury spending review.

As per earlier posts in the thread, there are two completely separate issues here: (i) conversion of the public service telephone network from analogue to voice over IP, and (ii) delivering internet connectivity over fibre rather than copper cable. The former does not require the latter, although elimination of copper is the longer term aim. More remote locations might benefit from 5G or satellite coverage where installation of fibre could be very expensive, but 5G masts still need their backhaul connection to the core network, and current satellite technology doesn't match the speeds and prices of fibre
 

Ediswan

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My understanding is that a converter box with a battery will be installed in the home so you should be able to carry on with your existing phone set up in your home. A small phone style bettery will probably last a good week or so.
You also have to consider whether there will be power to all the active devices between the premise and the exchange. That big green box at the end of the street, how long would the UPS in that last ? This also applies to anybody using FTTC. The only power supply needed for a traditional analogue phone is at the exchange.
 

najaB

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This also applies to anybody using FTTC. The only power supply needed for a traditional analogue phone is at the exchange.
If it's really an issue they'll just leave some copper in the ground and continue providing power from the exchange.
 

westv

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Some of those affected by the storm will also have found that phone lines are as susceptible to falling trees as power lines. While I have a relatively fast fibre-to-the-cabinet (FTTC) connection, the connection into the house comes from a pole. Had any of those lines been brought down I'd have no service at all, be it analogue or digital.
Funnily enough we have FTT Premises which is also provided by a pole but that's because of the way the landline cable was laid made it difficult to lay a fibre cable underground.
 

Ediswan

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I don't work for BT any more but that was being discussed.
OK, worth discussing. If there is a plausible amount of copper (or aluminium) available, makes sense to run the numbers.

My understanding is that current FTTC cabinets use local mains power with an internal UPS (no published capacity). Happy to be corrected.
 

najaB

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My understanding is that current FTTC cabinets use local mains power with an internal UPS (no published capacity).
That's my understanding as well, but I didn't work for Openreach. I *believe* it's between six and twelve hours capacity.
 

Dai Corner

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Forgive me if I have lost track of this thread, but what is the reasoning behind the change and who will be the beneficiaries?
As I see it, running fibre to every premises benefits the consumer by providing access to consistently fast Internet access. Living in a semi-rural area, you're probably aware that copper cannot do this everywhere.

Once the fibre network is complete in a given area it makes no sense to maintain the copper network for the dwindling number who only want a landline. So save money by migrating them to VoIP on fibre, recover the copper and close down redundant exchanges.

In the long term everyone should benefit but it remains to be seem how any financial savings are shared between the industry and consumers.

In the short term the major beneficiaries are probably the equipment suppliers and installers.
 

oldman

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Funnily enough we have FTT Premises which is also provided by a pole but that's because of the way the landline cable was laid made it difficult to lay a fibre cable underground.
In my 1950s suburban street it's all fibre from the existing poles. An Openreach engineer told me a few years ago that they had developed a way of spanning longer distances with fibre and this was going to be a game-changer in reducing the time and cost of rolling out FTTP, so I guess it may be quite common.
 

najaB

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Forgive me if I have lost track of this thread, but what is the reasoning behind the change and who will be the beneficiaries?
The tradtional copper PSTN distribution network is exceedingly expensive to maintain and severely limits broadband speeds. The solution to both of these issues requires fibre to be pushed further out, closer to the customer.

Fibre uses digital transmission, the traditional PSTN is analogue. For the last 40 years or so the conversion happened at the exchange with the distribution side uses analogue signals over copper wires, connections between exchanges have been all digital since the mid-1980s. When fibre is pushed out to the home then the D/A conversion needs to happen in the home.

As @Dai Corner says, once a certain percentage of an exchange area is using FTTP/FTTN then the cost of keeping the analogue copper network alive to provide service to any legacy customers outweighs the cost of fitting conversion boxes and using VoIP (digital signals) to provide their voice service over the copper that's already there.
 
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Ediswan

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That's my understanding as well, but I didn't work for Openreach. I *believe* it's between six and twelve hours capacity.
I found simillar figures elsewhere.

I also found a couple of people suggesting that if an FTTC cabinet does lose power, the DC path for each line to the exchange will automatically be restored, reverting to PSTN. My understanding of a PSTN to FTTC conversion is that the PSTN line from exchange to cabinet is disconnected at the cabinet, but I am willing to be corrected.
 

JamesT

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I also found a couple of people suggesting that if an FTTC cabinet does lose power, the DC path for each line to the exchange will automatically be restored, reverting to PSTN. My understanding of a PSTN to FTTC conversion is that the PSTN line from exchange to cabinet is disconnected at the cabinet, but I am willing to be corrected.

From https://www.openreach.com/content/d...lines/industry/openreach ALL IP FAQs v1.7.pdf
FTTC or Fibre To The Cabinet, is a service that is already available to 95% of the UK. It utilises the traditional copper telephone line from the premises to the green street cabinet. However, at the cabinet, the broadband/Internet part of the customer’s service is transferred onto fibre and allows greater speeds, whist the customer’s voice calls continue to the exchange over the existing copper line.
So the copper path is still currently there for voice calls. You get relays that close when the power goes off, so it is plausible that voice could be maintained when the active broadband kit in the cabinet goes off.
But whether Openreach actually do that or just rely on battery backup in the cabinet to cover short outages is another matter.
 

Ediswan

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From https://www.openreach.com/content/dam/openreach/openreach-dam-files/images/upgrading-the-UK-to-digital-phone-lines/industry/openreach ALL IP FAQs v1.7.pdf

So the copper path is still currently there for voice calls. You get relays that close when the power goes off, so it is plausible that voice could be maintained when the active broadband kit in the cabinet goes off.
But whether Openreach actually do that or just rely on battery backup in the cabinet to cover short outages is another matter.
Thanks. After a bit more digging, it seems like the circuitry in the cabinet which mixes/splits the (high frequency) data and the (low frequency) voice may well be made from passive components, much the same as an ADSL/VDSL microfilter, so continues to pass voice even if there is no power to the other equipment. No need for relays.
 

najaB

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Thanks. After a bit more digging, it seems like the circuitry in the cabinet which mixes/splits the (high frequency) data and the (low frequency) voice may well be made from passive components, much the same as an ADSL/VDSL microfilter, so continues to pass voice even if there is no power to the other equipment. No need for relays.
Basically, though it's not passive. With FTTP the DSLAM (the device that combines the voice and data signals at the service provider's end) is moved from the exchange to the street cabinet. This means a shorter run of copper for the data component (usually less than 500m) which allows higher data rates for two reasons: less interference and higher-frequency signals (VDSL as opposed to ADSL).

The voice service is unaffected and continues to be provided over the copper network, with power injection at the exchange.
 

87 027

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Annex 2 starting on page 13 of the following document from Ofcom has an explanation of the technology behind the various types of telephone network


Figure A2.4 on p.17 shows that under current FTTC arrangements, there is both a copper and a fibre connection from the cabinet to the exchange. The Openreach document referred to in post #144 above states in answer to Q8, Q9 and Q10 that after the end of 2025, this copper connection (for voice calls) will no longer be used

As I see it, running fibre to every premises benefits the consumer by providing access to consistently fast Internet access. Living in a semi-rural area, you're probably aware that copper cannot do this everywhere.

Once the fibre network is complete in a given area it makes no sense to maintain the copper network for the dwindling number who only want a landline. So save money by migrating them to VoIP on fibre, recover the copper and close down redundant exchanges.

In the long term everyone should benefit but it remains to be seem how any financial savings are shared between the industry and consumers.

In the short term the major beneficiaries are probably the equipment suppliers and installers.

The following report from the National Infrastructure Commission puts some numbers on this - figure 1.1 on page 21 shows the estimated 30-year whole life cost of converting to full fibre is £21.9 billion vs. costs of £33.4 billion keeping/upgrading copper

 
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Ediswan

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Basically, though it's not passive. With FTTP the DSLAM (the device that combines the voice and data signals at the service provider's end) is moved from the exchange to the street cabinet. This means a shorter run of copper for the data component (usually less than 500m) which allows higher data rates for two reasons: less interference and higher-frequency signals (VDSL as opposed to ADSL)
For clarity, I have seen the suggestion that the filter section of the DSLAM which does the mixing/splitting is passive, not the whole device.
 

najaB

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For clarity, I have seen the suggestion that the filter section of the DSLAM which does the mixing/splitting is passive, not the whole device.
Oh, yeah. That's just a simple low-pass filter. You could make one yourself with an inductor a resistor and capacitor of the correct values.
 

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Storm Arwen: Why power cuts left people unable to phone for help

Power cuts caused by Storm Arwen have highlighted a potentially lethal problem in the home phone network's digital transformation. Traditional landlines are being phased out in favour of broadband-enabled phones reliant on electricity. As hundreds of thousands of households across northern England lost power, people in remote areas without a mobile reception were left unable to call for help.
 
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