WTT 1963 query

Andy873 · 7 Dec 2021

Hi,

Well I've just got my second working timetable and I'm trying to make sense of the head code listed in it for one train:

3J46

I know J stands for it's destination area (Manchester North) as it's going to Bolton.
The 46 seems to be its ID number as the actual route codes only start at 50 in this WTT.

But what about the 3?

Now I would have thought this means it's a class 3 train - the WTT states it's an "ECS" (empty coaching stock train).

Looking at the list of classes on the Internet, class 3 should be a parcels or perishable goods train, but it's clearly not. Indeed it lists class 5 as empty carriage stock.

Is the 3 telling me it was a class 03 diesel shunter?

Second question, as the WTT gives a 4 character head code, it this telling me the engine was a diesel?

The WTT is from September 1963, London Midland Region and covers passenger trains (Todmorden to Preston & branches).

Help please!

Attached is a scan of the page that lists this train - look for "Padiham"

Thanks,

Andy.

RailUK Forums

bishdunster · 7 Dec 2021

Andy873 said:
Hi,

Well I've just got my second working timetable and I'm trying to make sense of the head code listed in it for one train:

3J46

I know J stands for it's destination area (Manchester North) as it's going to Bolton.
The 46 seems to be its ID number as the actual route codes only start at 50 in this WTT.

But what about the 3?

Now I would have thought this means it's a class 3 train - the WTT states it's an "ECS" (empty coaching stock train).

Looking at the list of classes on the Internet, class 3 should be a parcels or perishable goods train, but it's clearly not. Indeed it lists class 5 as empty carriage stock.

Is the 3 telling me it was a class 03 diesel shunter?

Second question, as the WTT gives a 4 character head code, it this telling me the engine was a diesel?

The WTT is from September 1963, London Midland Region and covers passenger trains (Todmorden to Preston & branches).

Help please!

Attached is a scan of the page that lists this train - look for "Padiham"

Thanks,

Andy.

Probably an empty parcels stock working.

Clarence Yard · 7 Dec 2021

If you look at the columns beside the train you are looking at, you will see FO and SO variations that carry the note that this was the empty stock from a parcels working. I would not be at all surprised to see on the page dealing with trains running in the opposite direction that this parcels train to Colne ran on those other days as well.

In those days class 3 was an ECS train, the classification of ECS as class 5 coming a few years after this timetable.

The ECS train you are looking at here seems to change engines at Blackburn. I would have thought this engine was likely to be something like a black 5 or 4MT tank, depending on the load. Finding some pictures of this working would confirm or deny.

Andy873 · 7 Dec 2021

bishdunster said:
Probably an empty parcels stock working.

Maybe I misunderstood the phrase "coaching", thought it meant carriages, that's why you are all so useful!

Thanks.

jfollows · 7 Dec 2021

WIkipedia might be helpful here, I know it can't be relied on necessarily but it seems OK, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_reporting_number, and in particular the discussion about the first character in the headcode:

Train classes[edit]
For operational reasons, certain trains have priority in running. To help operating staff, they are grouped into classes; these were formerly identified using letters. When the letter groups were replaced by numerals on 18 June 1962, the classifications became:[3]

(formerly A) Express passenger, newspaper, or breakdown train; express diesel car; snow plough on duty; light engine proceeding to assist disabled train.

(B) Ordinary passenger, branch passenger or "mixed" train; rail motor (loaded or empty); ordinary passenger or parcels diesel car; breakdown train not on duty.

(C) Parcels, fish, fruit, livestock, milk or other perishable train composed entirely of vehicles conforming to coaching stock requirements; empty coaching stock (not specially authorised to carry Class A [sic] code).

(C) Express freight, livestock, perishable or ballast train pipe-fitted throughout with the automatic vacuum brake operative on 90 per cent of the vehicles.

(D) Express freight, livestock, perishable or ballast train with not less than 50 per cent vacuum braked vehicles piped to the engine.

(E) Express freight, livestock, perishable or ballast train with 20 per cent vacuum braked vehicles piped to the engine.

(F) Express freight, livestock, or ballast train not fitted with continuous brake.

(H) Through freight or ballast trains not running under C, D, E or F [sic] conditions.

(J) Mineral or empty wagon train.
(K) Pick-up branch freight, mineral or ballast train.

(G) Light engine(s) with not more than two brake vans.

The classes are periodically revised, and since 13 December 2017, the classes have been:[4]

Express passenger train; nominated postal or parcels train; breakdown or overhead line equipment train going to clear the line (headcode 1Z99); traction unit going to assist a failed train (1Z99); snow plough going to clear the line (1Z99)

Ordinary passenger train; Officers' special train (2Z01)

Freight train if specially authorised; a parcels train; autumn-railhead treatment train; empty coaching stock train if specially authorised

Freight train which can run up to 75 mph (120 km/h)

Empty coaching stock train

Freight train which can run up to 60 mph (95 km/h)

Freight train which can run up to 45 mph (70 km/h)

Freight train which can run up to 35 mph (55 km/h)

Class 373 train; other passenger train if specially authorised

Light locomotive or locomotives

Interestingly to me at least, class 3 started out being used for empty coaching stock, which soon became class 5 instead, but for a number of years now following the decline in the number of parcels trains in part, class 3 is now used as well for ECS workings, usually for time-critical ECS workings, such as those which are for trains which run into a major centre at rush hour, then run ECS back to the suburbs as class 3 before running a second later rush-hour inbound service.

1N03 05:40 Clacton to London Liverpool Street
3F19 07:26 London Liverpool Street to Chelmsford Down Goods Loop
5F19 08:04 Chelmsford Down Goods Loop to Chelmsford
1F19 08:09 Chelmsford to London Liverpool Street
and, today, 3F19 ran late anyway and so 1F19 ran late also

But this is nothing to do with your 1963 timetable!

eastwestdivide · 7 Dec 2021

Andy873 said:
Maybe I misunderstood the phrase "coaching", thought it meant carriages, that's why you are all so useful!

Thanks.

Yes, parcels/mail stock was classified as coaching stock rather than freight stock. All sorts of parcel vans could and did run as part of passenger trains.
You sometimes see the term NPCCS = non passenger-carrying coaching stock

Andy873 · 7 Dec 2021

eastwestdivide said:
Yes, parcels/mail stock was classified as coaching stock rather than freight stock. All sorts of parcel vans could and did run as part of passenger trains.

Interesting...

I wonder if this train was a mix of vans and carriages, or just empty parcel vans?
It ran from Colne to Bolton and only stopped at Blackburn on the way.

I also wondered why it would be listed in a passenger WTT, but you've answered that one for me, thanks.

eastwestdivide · 7 Dec 2021

Andy873 said:
Interesting...

I wonder if this train was a mix of vans and carriages, or just empty parcel vans?
It ran from Colne to Bolton and only stopped at Blackburn on the way.

I also wondered why it would be listed in a passenger WTT, but you've answered that one for me, thanks.

With a 3xxx headcode, it wouldn't be conveying passengers, so no need for passenger carriages.

RT4038 · 7 Dec 2021

eastwestdivide said:
With a 3xxx headcode, it wouldn't be conveying passengers, so no need for passenger carriages.

There may have been no need to carry passengers, but that doesn't necessarily mean that (empty) passenger coaches were not present in the consist.

30907 · 7 Dec 2021

AFAIK all trains including steam had a 4-character headcode by then (except on the SR).

OT but did this train actually take its booked route via Padiham? I would have thought there might be some memories or even photos of such a regular working, which might answer the query about loading - though 2pm might not have been a convenient time for workers/scholars.

Gloster · 7 Dec 2021

In the 1.50 departure time from Colne is an obelus (‘dagger’) which, certainly later on, indicated an ecs working. I can’t confirm that it was already used for one in 1963, although this is likely.

If you look in the next two columns the notes at ninety degrees at the bottom indicate that the light engine moves, also at 1.50, were the back working of the 10.40 Preston parcels. This suggests that 3J46 is also a back working of the 10.40, although that is not definite.

Andy873 · 8 Dec 2021

30907 said:
AFAIK all trains including steam had a 4-character headcode by then (except on the SR).

OT but did this train actually take its booked route via Padiham? I would have thought there might be some memories or even photos of such a regular working, which might answer the query about loading - though 2pm might not have been a convenient time for workers/scholars.

Yes, the train was booked to run through Padiham, Simonstone & Great Harwood.

The train ran on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays and around 2pm sadly most people would have been in work and the school kids at school, so sadly I can't find any photos of it.

Gloster said:
In the 1.50 departure time from Colne is an obelus (‘dagger’) which, certainly later on, indicated an ecs working. I can’t confirm that it was already used for one in 1963, although this is likely.

If you look in the next two columns the notes at ninety degrees at the bottom indicate that the light engine moves, also at 1.50, were the back working of the 10.40 Preston parcels. This suggests that 3J46 is also a back working of the 10.40, although that is not definite.

The "dagger" symbol I can confirm was in use in 1963, it's listed on the abbreviations
page of the WTT.

When I get the chance, I will have a go at scanning this WTT as it has a lot in it and I'm sure some of you will want to have a look as it covers:

Todmorden - Preston
Manchester Victoria - Bury - Accrington plus onward trains.

If anyone wants to know something about it just reply here and I will gladly have a look for you!

Thanks,
Andy.

6Gman · 8 Dec 2021

As ever, old WTTs throw up all manner of interest.

Can you check the timetable t'other way to see what days the Preston - Colne ran? I wonder if it was MX?

On Tuesdays to Thursdays the stock returned quite promptly to Bolton (makes sense - plenty of demand for parcel vehicles there in those days).

But on Fridays and Saturdays it was a light engine move, so what happened to the vans?

That the ECS re-engined at Blackburn suggests it could well have been a Lostock Hall working, which might well then have gone LE home replaced for the run to Bolton by a Lower Darwen or Bolton loco.

30907 · 8 Dec 2021

6Gman said:
As ever, old WTTs throw up all manner of interest.

Can you check the timetable t'other way to see what days the Preston - Colne ran? I wonder if it was MX?

On Tuesdays to Thursdays the stock returned quite promptly to Bolton (makes sense - plenty of demand for parcel vehicles there in those days).

But on Fridays and Saturdays it was a light engine move, so what happened to the vans?

Saturdays there's a 1.30pm ECS Vans to Red Bank, with a different loco. But with van trains you really need to have access to carriage working notices or their local equivalent.

Gloster · 8 Dec 2021

30907 said:
Saturdays there's a 1.30pm ECS Vans to Red Bank, with a different loco. But with van trains you really need to have access to carriage working notices or their local equivalent.

Red Bank was, I think, the sidings for the newspaper trains. Could they have been moving a few extra vans there for the Sunday papers? (I am not sure if the Sunday papers in those days were as bulky as nowadays.)

Andy873 · 9 Dec 2021

6Gman said:
As ever, old WTTs throw up all manner of interest.

Can you check the timetable t'other way to see what days the Preston - Colne ran? I wonder if it was MX?

On Tuesdays to Thursdays the stock returned quite promptly to Bolton (makes sense - plenty of demand for parcel vehicles there in those days).

But on Fridays and Saturdays it was a light engine move, so what happened to the vans?

That the ECS re-engined at Blackburn suggests it could well have been a Lostock Hall working, which might well then have gone LE home replaced for the run to Bolton by a Lower Darwen or Bolton loco.

No problem, I've attached the list of trains from Preston to Colne as a text document.

All timing are from Preston.
Trains start from Preston unless otherwise stated.

Note - all passenger trains go via Accrington as the Great Harwood loop is now closed to passengers - was hoping to see a diversion train.

It does give me some question to ask though:

DMU B2 (D3 listed underneath)...

I know what DMU is, but what does

B2 and the D3 mean?

There is also a DMU A5 D2 stating D1 timings?

Finally, it mentions Manchester Prom - where's "Prom"?

If anyone else wants something I'm happy to look for it!

Thanks,
Andy.

150219 · 9 Dec 2021

Hi Andy,

The 2-character headcodes should be in the front of the WTT. 'B2' would mean different routing in each different divisions WTT. The letter would denote the classification of the train, i.e. 'A' is what we'd now call as Class 1 train, 'B' is a Class 2, and 'C' is a Class 3. The number would denote the route of the train. The North West isn't really my area, so I can't help with the details - but double check the front of the WTT to see if they're listed in there. I'd be surprised if they weren't.

In respect of 'D3', this means the type of DMU that should be working the service. 'D5' was a Transpennine DMU (Class 124). These aren't explained in the WTT, only the headings are listed. The explanations for the different 'D' prefixes are in the general instructions/appendix to the working timetable.

Prom is probably Promenade. Are you sure it says Manchester and not Morecambe?

**Edit following post #19, which corrected my memory of D4/D5.

Andy873 · 9 Dec 2021

150219 said:
Hi Andy,

The 2-character headcodes should be in the front of the WTT. 'B2' would mean different routing in each different divisions WTT. The letter would denote the classification of the train, i.e. 'A' is what we'd now call as Class 1 train, 'B' is a Class 2, and 'C' is a Class 3. The number would denote the route of the train. The North West isn't really my area, so I can't help with the details - but double check the front of the WTT to see if they're listed in there. I'd be surprised if they weren't.

In respect of 'D3', this means the type of DMU that should be working the service. 'D4' was a Transpennine DMU (Class 124). These aren't explained in the WTT, only the headings are listed. The explanations for the different 'D' prefixes are in the general instructions/appendix to the working timetable.

Prom is probably Promenade. Are you sure it says Manchester and not Morecambe?

Me stupid!

Yes, it's Morecambe - I have amended the above text file so everything is correct now.

Thanks for explaining the Bx question, it makes things more clear to me.

For the Dx, it just says see the sectional appendix, but I don't have one to look at.

I will check the WTT again regarding the Bx.

Thanks again,
Andy.

jfollows · 9 Dec 2021

If you see my post at #12 I've posted examples from a different WTT, see the section "MULTIPLE UNIT TRAINS FITTED WITH TWO-POSITION INDICATOR BOXES; ROUTE INDICATION NUMBERS" which identify the second position in the 2-character headcodes, hence a class 2 Piccadilly-Buxton train is "B3" (in both directions). Picture attached is the back of a Buxton-Manchester Piccadilly service at Stockport quite soon after electrification with various bay platforms clearly still existent and in use.

Essentially

Four-character headcodes had been implemented in the timetable
Some new trains and locomotives were designed to display the headcodes
However, it didn't make sense to convert some existing trains to display headcodes
Many existing DMUs had two-position indicator boxes, and these continued to be used instead
Later, after your timetable, the requirement to display headcodes went away anyway

A quick search for D1, D2 etc lead me to https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140252-wtt-timing-load-d1-d2-d3-etc/
D3 were relatively high power-weight ratio DMUs used on hilly routes like Manchester Victoria - Blackburn.

Andy873 · 9 Dec 2021

jfollows said:
If you see my post at #12 I've posted examples from a different WTT, see the section "MULTIPLE UNIT TRAINS FITTED WITH TWO-POSITION INDICATOR BOXES; ROUTE INDICATION NUMBERS" which identify the second position in the 2-character headcodes, hence a class 2 Piccadilly-Buxton train is "B3". Picture attached is the back of a Buxton-Manchester Piccadilly service at Stockport quite soon after electrification with various bay platforms clearly still existent and in use.

A quick search for D1, D2 etc lead me to https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140252-wtt-timing-load-d1-d2-d3-etc/

Thanks so much, the penny drops now!

It was the "B" that confused me, but looking down the route indicator, 2 is listed as

"Intermediate stations to Preston E.L or Blackpool Central via Todd lane junction" which looking at the route / starting point / destination is correct.

The WTT's are fascinating to read, lots of information, but it also requires a little learning - thank you again.

Andy.

jfollows · 9 Dec 2021

Andy873 said:
The WTT's are fascinating to read, lots of information, but it also requires a little learning - thank you again.

Andy.

I probably said already or elsewhere, but I've been reading WTTs since 1977, and on initial exposure I was certainly baffled by a lot of the content, but now it's almost second nature and a number of us are more than happy to assist you in your quest!

Springs Branch · 9 Dec 2021

Andy873 said:
It was the "B" that confused me, but looking down the route indicator, 2 is listed as

"Intermediate stations to Preston E.L or Blackpool Central via Todd lane junction" which looking at the route / starting point / destination is correct.

As well as listing the B2 (which applied to both directions of travel via Todd lane) possibly the 1963 WTT also lists:-
"Skipton, Colne, Accrington, Blackburn to Blackpool North via Farington Curve" - which was "3".

After the Todd Lane Jn route closed in the early 1970s, all the DMUs from Colne to Preston/Blackpool became route B3, but trains *from* Blackpool/Preston *to* Colne were still B2.

As seen in @jfollows attachment, the Dx question refers to the ratio of power cars to trailer cars in DMUs and "how fast" the train was likely to be able to travel.

In general, the power plants of 1st generation diesel-mechanical units had broadly similar power output, and those DMUs had a standard top speed of 75 mph. So the overall power of the train - hence the time which needed to be incorporated into the timetable to accelerate from stops and negotiate gradients on a given section of route - depended on the ratio of power cars to trailer cars.

As a rule of thumb the higher the number after the "D", the more powerful the DMU and the less time needed to complete a given journey.

A 2-car Motor (M) + Trailer (T) would be the least powerful combination and a D1.
A 3-car M + T + M (e.g. a BRCW "white stripe" Class 104) would be more powerful and classified D2.
A 2-car Cravens Class 105 "Power Twin" with M + M (and no Trailer to drag about) would be capable of faster travel, and a D3.
D4 was used for 4-car high-density suburban DMU. Not usually seen in the north-west, apart from Liverpool - Manchester Picc via Warrington C for a time.
D5 was reserved for the Inter-City Class 124 Trans-Pennine units. (D5 timings appeared in the WTT for a couple of "premium" Manchester-Preston-Blackpool commuter trains when a Trans-Pennine DMU was assigned to these workings).

It's potentially confusing, as a novice might interpret D2 & D3 as meaning a 2-car and 3-car DMU respectively, when in reality the opposite applied.

Around the Preston / Blackburn areas different DMU timings were assigned on a route-by-route basis:-
D1 (least powerful):
Preston/Ormskirk
Preston/Kirkham/Blackpool South
Preston/Lancaster/Barrow
Preston/Oxenholme/Windermere
Lancaster/Morecambe
Cumbrian Coast,
Morecambe/Skipton/Bradford/Leeds

D2:
Man Vic /Blackpool
Man Vic /Wigan/Southport
Leeds/Copy Pit/Blackpool (summer SO)

D3: (power twins):
Preston/Colne
Man Vic/Bolton/Blackburn
Liverpool Exchange/Bolton/Rochdale
Man Vic/Oldham/Rochdale
Bury/Rawtenstall

jfollows · 9 Dec 2021

I remember south Manchester in the 1970s, and the majority of DMUs were D1, with dire acceleration, I generally hated them. This included Manchester-Sheffield stoppers. The Buxton line was D2 with its own allocation (class 104 BRCW I think), which were slightly better, in 3-car sets I think I recall, but still not wonderful. D2 for faster trains Manchester-Sheffield and beyond also. D3 required a visit to Manchester Victoria in my experience, for almost bearable performance!

EDIT And I've just looked, Manchester-Liverpool via Warrington Central was indeed D4 in 1977, so some attempt to implement a fast service I guess, these trains ran into Manchester Piccadilly and reversed in platform 13 or 14, but given that the only other trains using these platforms in the 1970s were the Altrincham EMUs every 15 minutes it was possible to add in the (hourly) Liverpool terminators between services. At the time some people complained about having to trog over the footbridge at Manchester Piccadilly for onward service to Sheffield, which usually used platform 1. 52 minutes Piccadilly to Liverpool Lime Street with stops at Oxford Road, Warrington Central and Widnes. However, D4 was only the same power-weight ratio as D1, just a different type of unit.

Andy873 · 9 Dec 2021

jfollows said:
I probably said already or elsewhere, but I've been reading WTTs since 1977, and on initial exposure I was certainly baffled by a lot of the content, but now it's almost second nature and a number of us are more than happy to assist you in your quest!

It's very kind of you and to everyone for helping out, it's much appreciated!

Springs Branch said:
As well as listing the B2 (which applied to both directions of travel via Todd lane) possibly the 1963 WTT also lists:-
"Skipton, Colne, Accrington, Blackburn to Blackpool North via Farington Curve" - which was "3".

After the Todd Lane Jn route closed in the early 1970s, all the DMUs from Colne to Preston/Blackpool became route B3, but trains *from* Blackpool/Preston *to* Colne were still B2.

Your right also about the Skipton route.

I've attached pages F1 to F4 for you all to have a look at, hope you find it interesting!

Thanks,
Andy.

30907 · 9 Dec 2021

Thanks.

Andy873 said:
No problem, I've attached the list of trains from Preston to Colne as a text document.

And, as a previous poster surmised, the 1040am Parcels runs MX, not unusually for parcels/mails.

Andy873 said:
There is also a DMU A5 D2 stating D1 timings?

Booked for a D2 but running to the slower timings - NER stock, and the Skipton lines were mostly D1 combinations.
Incidentally, I recall DM and DH units as being 70mph top speed, unlike DEMUs which were 75 later 90.

Seeing your pages of route codes - they were like SR headcodes, and repeated across a division/region (and across boundaries too).
Class 1 (like your 1L77) class 3 Parcels and freights had individual numbers, even if there was a route number (unlike on the SR).
Not sure when these route numbers were phased out - mid 70s?

jfollows · 9 Dec 2021

30907 said:
Not sure when these route numbers were phased out - mid 70s?

Yes, they are mentioned in the front of my 1977-78 working timetables but not in my 1978-79 ones.

I've seen a picture of a Buxton to Manchester Oxford Road working with B3 on the front, which is wrong, it should be B0, but this may be because by the time the picture was taken the route numbers were no longer used, and all the Buxton sets displayed B3 all the time until the indicators were removed. Or it was simply incorrect and nobody cared!

Springs Branch · 9 Dec 2021

30907 said:
Not sure when these route numbers were phased out - mid 70s?

After the 4-character reporting numbers came into universal use in the 1960s, I suppose the only place the 2-character (B2 etc) codes were still of limited use was on the front of early-build multiple units, so still listed alongside the 4-character code in WTTs.

Once BR decided to no-longer display headcodes on the front of any locos or units (IIRC in 1976), the 2-character version would definitely be redundant.
With typical railway inertia, no surprise that the DMU route codes were still published in 1977/78 but were removed by the time of the 1978/79 WTT.

jfollows said:
I've seen a picture of a Buxton to Manchester Oxford Road working with B3 on the front, which is wrong, it should be B0, but this may be because by the time the picture was taken the route numbers were no longer used, and all the Buxton sets displayed B3 all the time until the indicators were removed. Or it was simply incorrect and nobody cared!

When I read this, I did wonder whether Buxton Shed ever had the shed code 83 - but seems this was 9D, then 9L (83x sheds were all on the W.R. in Devon)

Andy873 said:
I've attached pages F1 to F4 for you all to have a look at, hope you find it interesting!

Thanks, those are interesting.
I have similar WTTs from later in the 1960s, and it's interesting to see some of the routes listed which were soon to fall victim to Dr Beeching. E.g:-
Code 4 - Blackpool, Fleetwood or East Lancs to Southport via Crossens or Burscough Bridge.
Code 7 - Manchester to Accrington & Skipton via Bury
Code 9 - Southport to Todmorden via Blackburn

Gloster · 9 Dec 2021

One of the things I find mildly curious is that the Preston Division used the headcode 0Z00 for light locomotives, something they still appeared to be doing in the 1970s. (Z is the letter for trains not in the working timetable, i.e ones that are first shown in the weekly or daily notices, or even organised on the day by ‘phone or telex.) In 1973 the Western Region used the codes from 0F70 to 0F86 for movements to the main maintenance depots and 0F90 to 0F92 for movements between divisions. Other movements usually used the headcode of the train that had just been worked or was about to be worked. Particularly in their early days, the details of the application of the rules for headcodes seems to have been left to the divisions.

Taunton · 10 Dec 2021

Springs Branch said:
After the 4-character reporting numbers came into universal use in the 1960s, I suppose the only place the 2-character (B2 etc) codes were still of limited use was on the front of early-build multiple units, so still listed alongside the 4-character code in WTTs.

For the limited time that dmus were actually built, only about 1956-62, they came with a surprising number of changes of policy on headcodes. The first units had four marker lights, three across the bottom and one at the top, which could be switched on to replicate what steam locomotive oil lamps showed. The common one for dmus was local passenger, which was the one at the top. This gave no routing information, although they did of course have the destination blind, previously unknown on trains. With the change to Blue Square cars the two-character indicators under the front windows came along, starting A for express and B for local, then numbers 0-9 which gave routing information and were somewhat ingeniously assigned with such a limited set that no signalbox had duplicates. Halfway through building these, a further change was to the full 4-character set, mounted above the windscreen, which on some types made them look a little strange.

Swindon Works never seemed to get the memo on these policies, their earliest built dmus had a stencil box under the windscreen for A or B, then they had nothing but the marker lights long after everyone else had the 2-characters, and finally they changed to the 4-character codes, but underneath the window instead of above it.

Cars were never rebuilt as the policy changes were made, they stayed with what they were built with, so working timetables had to show it all, until headcodes were given up in the 1970s, when a variety of approaches from showing nothing to completely panelling over the display occurred.

Springs Branch · 10 Dec 2021

jfollows said:
I've seen a picture of a Buxton to Manchester Oxford Road working with B3 on the front, which is wrong, it should be B0, but this may be because by the time the picture was taken the route numbers were no longer used, and all the Buxton sets displayed B3 all the time until the indicators were removed. Or it was simply incorrect and nobody cared!

Maybe I'm getting OT for @Andy873's original question relating to trains in East Lancs - but I'll justify this post by claiming I'm illustrating to the OP (a new student of old timetables) how occasional inconsistencies and contradictions could be found within those masterpieces of complex and cryptic information (i.e. BR Working Timetables):-

Looking at the South Manchester (Section M) WTT for 1974/75, the page summarising 2-position route indication shows the numbers quoted by @jfollows:-

Piccadilly - Buxton: 3
Buxton - Piccadilly: 3
Oxford Rd - Buxton: 3
Buxton - Oxford Rd: 0

However in the body of the same WTT, the handful of rush-hour trains from Buxton to Manchester which terminated at Oxford Rd rather than Piccadilly all show "DMU B3" at the head of their columns (not DMU B0 as would be expected).
These trains did, however, have different 4-character headcodes: 2H71 if terminating at Picc, 2H72 if going to Oxford Rd.
The trains involved were:
07:04 SX Buxton - Oxford Rd
07:26 SX Buxton - Oxford Rd

Possibly the driver of the train in the photo had diligently set his B3 route indicator according to the WTT entry for his particular train.
Or maybe, because the huge majority of DMUs up and down the Buxton line always used the B3 code, the winding mechanism for the blinds had rusted up in the damp air at Buxton depot!

WTT 1963 query

Member

Attachments

RailUK Forums

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Train classes[edit]​

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Attachments

Member

Member

Established Member

Attachments

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Attachments

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Train classes[edit]