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Future uses for class 220s/221s and 222s?
- Thread starter Bob Price
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Nym
Established Member
222s are maintained in Derby. Not Central Rivers.
GLC
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Not as I understand it. The ITT here https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/33332/scotrail-franchise-itt-4855286-45.pdf states that the existing Class 170s were considered unsuitable as intercity trains, but could be made suitable with sufficient refurbishment. No mention is made of underfloor engines
Whatever happens to the 222s, they won't be maintained in Derby as the depot is being transferred from Bombardier to Hitachi as part of the 810 introduction.
Paul Jones 88
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My morning shave!!
dk1
Veteran Member
If they are without a home they would be the ideal length to replace the HSTs until further electrification takes place. A reasonably reliable multiple unit so a good replacement on Inter7City routes.
Yes I agree it will take further expense but so will anything that replaces the current fleet. I also remember Chris Garnett saying underfloor engines would never be an option for GNER routes & look at those now.
which suggests to me any new operator would need to have a new maintenance facility established, with all the investment that entails. Either by the Rosco leasing them out or the operator. An added expense.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Depends if they're replacing something else (e.g. Scottish HSTs), in which case an existing facility can be modified. While outsourced vendor maintenance has largely been the norm for new fleets, the traditional model is also an option.
replacing an interim fleet with another interim fleet sounds like throwing good money after bad, as regards setting up maintenance and staff training. If the ultimate replacement fleet turns out to be a Hitachi AT200/300 variant then Craigentinny is on hand. Whether they have capacity is a different matter, so Haymarket likely will still have a role to play.
43096
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There'd be more chance of Angel having that lawyer than ScotRail. One thing the ROSCOs are very good at is having contracts with watertight T&Cs.
Mikey C
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How long is interim? 10-15 years service say would be a decent return for any up front investment
I'd agree. But a lot has been sunk into the HST programme, seems a shame for that to go to waste, but it has to be recognised that the programme hasn't been as successful as hoped. It may well be cheaper to ditch them in favour of 222s. It's a conversation that needs to be had.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Depends how interim. 22x are mid-life - there's at least another 15-20 years in them unless emissions regulations shorten that.
I'd be astonished if that conversation wasn't a long way along.
RailWonderer
Established Member
Smart motorways are dangerous and whatever your opinion on them, they are not helping motorists. Lack of road maintenance in many areas, lack of investment in new roads, even small but important chords and extensions, the ULEZ extension and cutting up roads into bicycle paths and bus lanes increasing congestion even more in some areas. Labour accelerated the war but granted, the Tories have suspended the war, to put it that way and mainly local councils have made their own decisions.
Transport Scotland is at the mercy of HMT funding via the Scottish parliament so their green ambitions are irrelevant. HMT will decide whether a fleet of new IETs will be worth the cost which I doubt sincerely.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Upside of IETs would be being able to make use of the planned progressive electrification.
swt_passenger
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I thought the rail unions in Scotland were now pushing firmly against HSTs? Wasn’t there a thread about it last month?
quantinghome
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HMT funds Scots gov with a block grant. Unlike England, the Treasury can't micromanage Scottish transport investment decisions. Obviously Scots gov have to decide what their priorities are but if they decide to electrify there's nothing the Treasury can do to stop them.
Pete_uk
Established Member
Could any mid life overhaul include one less engine and the addition of a battery pack to cut pollution in stations?
James90012
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Certainly a trial was previously announced by XC but guess that's gone now with the change in contracts.
A more left field thought I had - rather than scrap - was 20 5 car 221s ex Avanti would be great as a centrally owned 'float' to increase capacity across the network at specific times. E.g. when the East Coast is closed Avanti and East Mids don't have any ability to increase capacity, or in the summer XC and GWR struggle with Cornwall demand. One of those totally non commercial so will never happen ideas but if we're being speculative..!
dk1
Veteran Member
You would think it an option that's way up there. Been talked about a lot. Its like a very mini Project Thor lol.
RailWonderer
Established Member
Before the ROSCO invests in that kind of project they will want a home for them first, otherwise it would be sunk costs.
trainmania100
Established Member
Send them back to Brighton with Southern and get some sort of fast service back into the south
MidlandMainlie
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I would have all the remaining 221 and 222 transfer to XC but in return XC would release its 170's to East Midlands Trains which would take on the Birmingham-Leicester stopping service and the Birmgham-Stanstead service. The displaced 222's would then operate the Cardiff-Nottingham with WMT and EMT pitching up some of the more minor stops.
dk1
Veteran Member
Of of course, that goes without saying.
The Planner
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There is a lot of logic in that, but as you say, they wouldnt be earning money.
irish_rail
Established Member
Ah the old school BR way. Have trains available for use at busy times. Its a shame that never caught on......seriously though this is one aspect of privatisation that has really damaged the railway.
Evolution
Member
You would have thought the natural home for these would be XC, replace HST’s and strengthen much needed services.
I believe a conversion course and maintenance wouldn’t be a huge issue, given their similarities to the Voyagers.
Bit of a wildcard, but could Northern be interested in them? It would allow them to displace all the older 15X stock, put the 158s/170s on the stopping work and put the 222s on the long distance work with the 195s. They are short of DMUs at end of the day.
I believe a conversion course and maintenance wouldn’t be a huge issue, given their similarities to the Voyagers.
Bit of a wildcard, but could Northern be interested in them? It would allow them to displace all the older 15X stock, put the 158s/170s on the stopping work and put the 222s on the long distance work with the 195s. They are short of DMUs at end of the day.
Ex-controller
Member
Despite all the very sound, logical reasons for the 222 units going to ScoRail, I can pretty much assure you that it’s not going to happen. The HST will be around for the best part of the next decade.
Is it this summer or next that ASLEF has said they will refuse to drive the HSTs?
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