• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

All railway ticket offices in England to close?

Status
Not open for further replies.

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
2,908
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
The Sunday Times is reporting today that:

All ticket offices are to close on the railways, forcing passengers to book online under plans to save up to £500 million a year.
The rail industry has drawn up a confidential strategy to phase out paper tickets and close or “repurpose” 980 ticket offices in England, starting in September.


Unfortunately, the full artice is behind a paywall.

While electronic tickets have advantages for many, railway ticketing is currently so complicated that for journeys that are not straightforward, closing all ticket offices is fraught with problems. It also relies on having a working mobile phone with the ability to display the relevant ticket when travelling, unless it is intended to have a nationwide "contactless" ticketing system with electronic card readers at every station.

Comments?
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

realemil

Member
Joined
14 Feb 2021
Messages
330
Location
Glasgow
So far not looking good - especially as most things are moving to e-tickets, and sale of priv tickets are being rolled out online.

Rovers are also being rolled out in TVMs, however stations like Birmingham N St halved their TVMs (the Avanti ones), which is appalling - and they want to remove ticket offices…
 
Last edited:

DelW

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2015
Messages
3,834
Even if true, closing ticket offices doesn't mean electronic tickets being the only option. E-tickets can be printed on paper, and ticket machines will presumably survive to provide cardboard tickets too.
 

uww11x

Member
Joined
15 Oct 2017
Messages
366
The Sunday Times is reporting today that:




Unfortunately, the full artice is behind a paywall.

While electronic tickets have advantages for many, railway ticketing is currently so complicated that for journeys that are not straightforward, this is fraught with problems. It also relies on having a working mobile phone with the ability to display the relevant ticket when travelling, unless it is intended to have a nationwide "contactless" ticketing system with electronic card readers at every station.

Comments?
Vote Labour

See Northern's franchise promise, of retaining ticket offices when well!
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,531
Closing ticket offices probably also means redeployment of staff to help passengers out with the ticket machines at the stations.

Vote Labour
I suspect ticket office closures will accelerate whoever is in power.

Obviously with PAYG and e-tickets more widely the need for a ticket office declines.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Easiest way to do Rovers would be a dedicated website issuing them as e-tickets or by post and phone for the few that can't do e-tickets. They're a niche product.

The reason Avanti are reducing the number of TVMs is because hardly anyone is using them, by the way! Nothing appalling about that.

Obviously with PAYG and e-tickets more widely the need for a ticket office declines.

Indeed so. Merseyrail's ticket offices are an utter waste of money now - switch to offering contactless (and an Oyster like product for children) and they would serve pretty much no purpose at all.

It's an easy cut to make, too, because strikes would do nothing to affect daily operations, as enough people already book online or use TVMs.
 

Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
7,787
Location
West Riding
Sweden manages just fine without any station staff at all. Seems a sensible and vast cost saving that would hardly inconvenience anyone. Of course, the traditionalists will whine however, but what are their cost saving plans?
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,531
Easiest way to do Rovers would be a dedicated website issuing them as e-tickets or by post and phone for the few that can't do e-tickets. They're a niche product.
Or withdraw them on the grounds of simplicity.

Or use PAYG and capping like in London.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,025
Location
West Wiltshire
You only have to go into the fares dispute threads to know how unworkable this is.

My local station has a part time ticket office, and one machine (which was out of order the other day), so no way to collect (or print) any pre bought tickets.

And a mile or two either side of the station, you are lucky if you can get a mobile signal to call up and display any pre bought tickets, so having them on a device doesn’t work as a solution either.

There are 2 entrances, both of which are open ungated, day and night so anyone could walk on and get a free ride unless guard comes along to sell tickets.

So how do you protect revenue ?
Ticket printers being added to every local train maybe
 

Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
7,787
Location
West Riding
Vote Labour

See Northern's franchise promise, of retaining ticket offices when well!
That wasn’t under the current franchisee though was it, so is irrelevant like Northern Connect and all the other promises!
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
and ticket machines will presumably survive to provide cardboard tickets too.

If operators or the government want penalty fare schemes then they need to provide either ticket machines or contactless touch-in/out facilities.

There are 2 entrances, both of which are open ungated, day and night so anyone could walk on and get a free ride unless guard comes along to sell tickets

In Germany it's rare for ticket checks to take place on stations or on trains but most people do buy tickets because the penalty for trying to get a free ride is too high.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,531
If operators or the government want penalty fare schemes then they need to provide either ticket machines or contactless touch-in/out facilities.
That is already government and RDG policy
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Redeploy ticket office staff to work barriers from first to last train.

When small village stations have multiple entry and exit points, it's not viable to put staff at all of them to check tickets, especially at quieter times.
 

Iskra

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2014
Messages
7,787
Location
West Riding
You only have to go into the fares dispute threads to know how unworkable this is.

My local station has a part time ticket office, and one machine (which was out of order the other day), so no way to collect any pre bought tickets.

There are 2 entrances, both of which are open ungated, day and night so anyone could walk on and get a free ride unless guard comes along to sell tickets

So how do you protect revenue ?
My local station is ungated all the time, has only a TVM and everyone seems to manage just fine.

My local station with a ticket office is staffed by miserable, unhelpful staff and is usually empty.

My nearest city ticket office is notorious for trying not to sell tickets they don’t like the idea of…

The only ticket office that seems busy when I pass is the Northern one at Leeds, but that’s possibly because they never seem to have enough windows open.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,531
When small village stations have multiple entry and exit points, it's not viable to put staff at all of them to check tickets, especially at quieter times.
Southern have demonstrated that it is viable to have staffed barriers at many stations, including smaller stations, throughout the period when trains are running. If a 'small village station' is enough of a worry to have fare evasion, it is entirely appropriate to install a gateline and have it staffed first to last train.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Or withdraw them on the grounds of simplicity.

Or use PAYG and capping like in London.

PAYG and capping isn't applicable to leisure-product Rovers. PTE-area multi-modal day tickets are a different game and could indeed be replaced as you say, but these, if not replaced, need to be purchasable from TVMs, not just a website.

My nearest city ticket office is notorious for trying not to sell tickets they don’t like the idea of…

It certainly doesn't help that a very large number of ticket offices don't provide a skilled, professional service, but in fact know relatively little about the product on sale and are often very lazy about it too. It'd be worth keeping booking offices if they were like a skilled travel agent of the railway, but most aren't.

I still haven't got over the guy at City Thameslink not knowing the validity of tickets to Bedford - you don't get much simpler than a single ticket from that station to another one of the same TOC served by a direct train. That really was appalling. And when I reported it, along with a stamped piece of paper he wrote out stating Off Peaks were not valid at the time I was travelling (yes, they were), the execrable GTR did nothing about it.
 
Joined
18 Apr 2009
Messages
193
Location
South East
This is a clear warning shot across the bows to those striking this week: "You may find your current role is less secure than you previously thought."

But I doubt it will change many minds...
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
This is a clear warning shot across the bows to those striking this week: "You may find your current role is less secure than you previously thought."

I don't think it's true of all roles. Ticket offices have no strike power because they're not essential - the service still runs if they're all closed, and it's much easier to drop managers in because it's not a safety critical role. DOO would give you similar savings, but drivers and guards can strike and have the network in bits for months until they give in, just as happened on Northern. (Southern only got away with it because their drivers were already DOO skilled/their trains already DOO equipped and the drivers agreed it, thus removing the power from the guards).
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I expect such proposals are for England, with devolved authorities having their own plans (which might be the same, or might not).
Nothing is said (haven't read the piece behind the paywall) about redeployment of staff.
Will they circulate on stations to help passengers, man barriers and information desks, or are just not wanted on voyage?
The ticketing system needs some upgrades if it is to retail all tickets on line.
It will be complicated in PTE areas with overlapping/different ticketing and retailing policies (eg Merseyrail).
Will long-distance (ie advance/reservation-heavy) TOCs work the same as walk-on local and commuter TOCs?
I would give it at least a 2-year timescale to implement, which means it will be a GBR feature.
Well, everybody said they wanted a "single controlling mind"...
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It will be complicated in PTE areas with overlapping/different ticketing and retailing policies (eg Merseyrail).

Merseyrail has about the simplest ticketing system in the country. There are Anytime Day Singles, Anytime Day Returns, Day Savers and Saveaways (on Metrocard, but it'd be easy to switch back to issuing them on paper) plus the PTE season products. They could close down most of their booking offices tomorrow (perhaps keeping Liverpool Central and Moorfields for dealing with season tickets) and replace with TVMs, and the service would not be any the worse for it. Accept e-tickets and contactless and it'd be even easier.

Indeed, I think this is likely to be the plan for funding the retention of guards.

There were no daily operated* booking offices at all on Hamburg's U- and S-Bahn 20 years ago, and that's before any form of electronic ticketing.

* A few were left in place and opened once a month on a rota for renewing seasons, if I recall.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Southern have demonstrated that it is viable to have staffed barriers at many stations, including smaller stations, throughout the period when trains are running. If a 'small village station' is enough of a worry to have fare evasion, it is entirely appropriate to install a gateline and have it staffed first to last train.

I give you Ashley station. Here's the station plan, so as you can see 3 exits are available: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations-and-destinations/stations-made-easy/ashley-station-plan

Pre-Covid there were 8224 journeys per annum or an average of just over 22 per day. That's less than one per passenger for each train that stops there.

Staffing would be needed for around 19 hours on weekdays. Even if you presume only two inspectors are needed, as trains aren't scheduled to stop in both directions at the same time, that would cost £380 per day if the inspectors were paid £10/hr. Probably more than the revenue generated from that station, especially if some would be checked at their destination station regardless of whether Ashley get ticket checks.
 

uglymonkey

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2018
Messages
440
If they shut the physical space and redeploy the staff to look after the ticket machines,how does that save money? Never understood the value of a ticket machine either when you can pay in board anyway?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If they shut the physical space and redeploy the staff to look after the ticket machines,how does that save money?

You wouldn't need to do that at every station, only the larger ones, and you'd only need one member of staff doing it.

Never understood the value of a ticket machine either when you can pay in board anyway?

You can't pay on board on most UK train services now. Penalty Fares cover most of the network except the most rural bits.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
If they shut the physical space and redeploy the staff to look after the ticket machines,how does that save money?

Station buildings are valuable assets. Many buildings which aren't used for rail purposes are now used for other purposes e.g. offices, community centres, cafes, pubs, churches etc.
 

philosopher

Established Member
Joined
23 Sep 2015
Messages
1,346
Tickets offices are still needed for some things. For example I don’t think you can refund a ticket bought through a ticket machine at a ticket machine or online, you have to go to the ticket office to do that. So I think there is still need for at least some ticket offices.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Station buildings are valuable assets. Many buildings which aren't used for rail purposes are now used for other purposes e.g. offices, community centres, cafes, churches etc.

And encouraging that sort of usage means people are on and around stations, reducing petty crime. The aim should indeed be to let out or sell as many as possible, not leave them derelict.

Tickets offices are still needed for some things. For example I don’t think you can refund a ticket bought through a ticket machine at a ticket machine or online, you have to go to the ticket office to do that. So I think there is still need for at least some ticket offices.

Moving everything to e-tickets solves that, you can cancel an e-ticket without needing the physical ticket back.

(I don't mean "you must buy online", I mean even TVMs would issue barcoded e-tickets rather than magstripe tickets - you could even allow the TVM to refund them if you fitted a scanner!)
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Moving everything to e-tickets solves that, you can cancel an e-ticket without needing the physical ticket back.

(I don't mean "you must buy online", I mean even TVMs would issue barcoded e-tickets rather than magstripe tickets - you could even allow the TVM to refund them if you fitted a scanner!)

Or existing smart card facilities could be changed to allow loading of single and return tickets to smart cards, then presumably a ticket could be removed from the smart card in the same way it's added at the TVM or using NFC using a phone app.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top