Under what circumstances am I allowed to double back when there is no direct train to the next station using a single ticket?

miklcct · 10 Aug 2022

A search on National Rail Enquiries shows that I can buy one ticket to go from Meridian Water to Ponders End, but not from Tring to Cheddington, on a weekday off-peak.

There are no trains calling at both stations in both examples during weekday off-peak despite they are only 1 station apart on the same line.

Why is the double back allowed in the former example but not the latter?

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MikeWh · 10 Aug 2022

I don't know, but it may be down to local policies. The line through Meridian Water has always suffered from local trains skip stopping because the same two tracks are also used by the Stanstead Express and other long distance services. It is therefore possible that the prices for those tickets reflect the zones travelled through and there is no possibility of revenue loss if you bail out at Tottenham Hale.

I'm less familiar with Tring, but have trains always skip stopped or is that a recent thing, or do they call all stations at certain times? It's also well outside the London zonal area so the potential for revenue loss is greater. Perhaps ask WMT/LNWR?

CyrusWuff · 10 Aug 2022

My hunch would be that it's to do with fares in the Greater London area being set on a zonal basis, with a side order of Meridian Water - Tottenham Hale being under three miles whereas Tring - Berkhamsted and Cheddington - Leighton Buzzard are both over three miles.

miklcct · 10 Aug 2022

MikeWh said:
I'm less familiar with Tring, but have trains always skip stopped or is that a recent thing, or do they call all stations at certain times? It's also well outside the London zonal area so the potential for revenue loss is greater. Perhaps ask WMT/LNWR?

In the northbound direction, some peak and evening trains and regular Sunday trains call at both stations. However, on a weekday, the next northbound train after 08:00 which calls at both station is the 17:00 train.

There are regular southbound trains calling at both stations though.

MikeWh · 10 Aug 2022

OK, so it's a mixed scenario, and as CyrusWuff mentions the distances are not insignificant. My suggestion is to ask LNWR if they would consider introducing a ticket routed via Bletchley or Hemel Hempstead at the price of the two tickets needed. I don't know how many people would use such a ticket though, so they may consider it not worth the effort.

Bletchleyite · 10 Aug 2022

The issue will be solved in December as the trains serving Cheddington will all be all stations stoppers. While I doubt Cheddington to Tring is a very popular journey it does fix a few connectivity issues, and is only disadvantageous to very few journeys.

In the meantime you are not realistically going to be questioned for doing this as long as you don't attempt to leave the station during the double back.

SargeNpton · 10 Aug 2022

MikeWh said:
OK, so it's a mixed scenario, and as CyrusWuff mentions the distances are not insignificant. My suggestion is to ask LNWR if they would consider introducing a ticket routed via Bletchley or Hemel Hempstead at the price of the two tickets needed. I don't know how many people would use such a ticket though, so they may consider it not worth the effort.

Do you mean Leighton Buzzard rather than Bletchley, and Berkhamsted instead of Hemel Hempstead?

miklcct · 10 Aug 2022

MikeWh said:
OK, so it's a mixed scenario, and as CyrusWuff mentions the distances are not insignificant. My suggestion is to ask LNWR if they would consider introducing a ticket routed via Bletchley or Hemel Hempstead at the price of the two tickets needed. I don't know how many people would use such a ticket though, so they may consider it not worth the effort.

In reality, people taking a local journey from Tring to Cheddington will be better off taking a local bus as the Tring station is not at a good location.

However, the same problem also exists between Feniton and Whimple, which are served by alternate trains and the double-back via Honiton is the only public transport available apart from the few 382 bus a day.

Haywain · 10 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
However, the same problem also exists between Feniton and Whimple, which are served by alternate trains and the double-back via Honiton is the only public transport available apart from the few 382 bus a day.

I would suggest that the handful of trains and the few buses probably cater for the demand.

Bletchleyite · 10 Aug 2022

miklcct said:
In reality, people taking a local journey from Tring to Cheddington will be better off taking a local bus as the Tring station is not at a good location.

I doubt very many people travel between the two at all, and the few that do probably drive (or if kids get a lift from their parents). One exception: it might be useful for some people doing a linear canal walk, though as Cheddington-Tring is quite a short section it'll more likely be Berkhamsted-Cheddington or Tring-Leighton Buzzard.

Mostly, the culture on the south WCML (and indeed most of the South East) is that trains are for going to London.

Haywain · 10 Aug 2022

Bletchleyite said:
trains are for going to London.

Or the nearest large town. in the case in point that would most likely be Watford or MK and perhaps Hemel Hempstead or Leighton Buzzard.

Bletchleyite · 10 Aug 2022

Haywain said:
Or the nearest large town. in the case in point that would most likely be Watford or MK and perhaps Hemel Hempstead or Leighton Buzzard.

To an extent, but most people will drive those journeys even so, particularly to MK which is the very definition of car-friendly. London is the only place where most people won't even *consider* driving and the train is seen as the only option, and if for any reason it's not available (e.g. a strike) they just won't go.

Watford maybe, I suppose, if going for the footy and so wanting to drink (there's a lot of Watford supporters in the area including MK).

Haywain · 10 Aug 2022

Bletchleyite said:
To an extent, but most people will drive those journeys even so, particularly to MK which is the very definition of car-friendly. London is the only place where most people won't even *consider* driving and the train is seen as the only option, and if for any reason it's not available (e.g. a strike) they just won't go.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there is a secondary market to such places. But beyond those local journeys are a very small proportion of the total.

MikeWh · 10 Aug 2022

Bletchleyite said:
Watford maybe, I suppose, if going for the footy and so wanting to drink (there's a lot of Watford supporters in the area including MK).

The same is true of many football teams in the South East.

Other (non-London) destinations include airports, beaches, theme parks.

AndrewE · 10 Aug 2022

Bletchleyite said:
Mostly, the culture on the south WCML (and indeed most of the South East) is that trains are for going to London.

which is what is wrong with UK timetable planning. Quite a lot of people live outside the SE but would like to use the train to meet up with or visit friends and relatives without having to go into London and back out on the same axis, making for slow and inconvenient journeys which have no need to increase congestion at Euston or wherever.
I can't wait for the crisis which makes parliament decamp to the regions and forces most of the civil service do the same. Until that happens I'm afraid it will be the same old, same old...

Hopefully HS2 will do something for the WCML, but the rest?

miklcct · 10 Aug 2022

AndrewE said:
which is what is wrong with UK timetable planning. Quite a lot of people live outside the SE but would like to use the train to meet up with or visit friends and relatives without having to go into London and back out on the same axis, making for slow and inconvenient journeys which have no need to increase congestion at Euston or wherever.
I can't wait for the crisis which makes parliament decamp to the regions and forces most of the civil service do the same. Until that happens I'm afraid it will be the same old, same old...

Hopefully HS2 will do something for the WCML, but the rest?

My ideal is to have an express train and an all-station stopper, which can easily be done on a 4-track railway such as the WCML. However, on 2-track sections it requires passing loops to be installed at regular intervals.

The Beeching cuts have removed a lot of orbital routes. There is no need to reopen those routes but we ought to have express buses which are properly integrated into the rail network to complement the existing railways.

Under what circumstances am I allowed to double back when there is no direct train to the next station using a single ticket?

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