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Are Class 700’s really that bad?

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jon0844

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I understand the reasoning, but the problem with all of these walk-through trains is that they make noise pollution - already a significant problem nowadays - significantly worse. You can now clearly hear the crying baby/raucous hen party/singing football fans/teenagers playing music through tinny phone speakers/kids watching annoying kids programs on an iPad without headphones/person shouting into their phone/etc. from 3 or more carriages away. That doesn't happen when there are doors between the carriages.

At busy times, look how many people have headphones/earbuds. It's probably over half.

During commuting, chances are most people are silent - and for leisure travel, there will be enough people making noise that you don't need to hear from two or three coaches along, they'll be a few seats away!

Sadly this means the best advice is to join the noise cancelling club (and potentially miss important PA announcements...!).
 

ComUtoR

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It makes no sense for wheelchair users to use the wide aisles to enable them to go anywhere on the train, as to get on and off the 700s with a wheelchair in central London you use the specified part of the platform with a Harrington Hump, which is consistent across the core. And where the designated wheelchair spaces are, which is in the middle two carriages of the train.

So there's no accessibility reason for the carriages away from this area to have super wide aisles


That's a very "Core" centric viewpoint.

What about all the other platforms outside of the core ?
 

AM9

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The serious point is that you consistently advocate the suitability of the 700 interior, yet by your own admission make a bee-line where expedient for a specific part of it which contains a number of features which you claim aren’t necessary for the masses. Why do this if you feel the rest of the accommodation is perfectly good?

As you know, declassified first is only going to be available to a small proportion of fortunate individuals, and yes on the rare occasions I use Thameslink I make sure I am one of those!

(In fairness, you’re not the only one on this - there’s a couple of others here who advocate the 700 interior, yet it’s not exactly a secret that their favourite seat is the single one in first adjacent to the cab — they know who they are!). ;)
Actually, I haven't travelled iin the 1st class areas for at least 18 months, mainly because my wife often can't walk to the end of a 12-car train. I get on wherever I feel like, - these days it's near the middle to speed exit at the upgraded Ridgmont Road exit at SAC, and the accommodation is perfectly adequate for me. Declassified is available fairly equally to every passenger on down trains, so it's there if they put the effort in. Even I don't always do that!
As far as the seat adjacent to the cabgoes, it is nearly always occupied by a person in TOC uniform, and typically, they spread out to discourage anybody else sitting opposite them on their table. Maybe that description fits the couple of RUK members you have in mind.
 

Mikey C

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That's a very "Core" centric viewpoint.

What about all the other platforms outside of the core ?
The trains have 2 carriages out of 8 or 12 designated for wheelchair users, where the humps are in the core, and where presumably at non core stations, the ramps are kept. Why would a wheelchair user choose to go somewhere else in the train, it makes no sense?
 

brad465

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This may have been said before on here, perhaps even by myself, but one issue I have with 700s is on routes with lots of calls and early on in the journey, the onboard announcements listing all the calling points takes almost to the next station to read. Yes almost all announcements on all trains are annoying, but this setup is worse. This also takes away time that more useful displays are on the screens, like carriage occupation levels. My main experience of this has been on Rainham-Luton trains, I suspect on BML services this isn't so bad.
 

Bletchleyite

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The trains have 2 carriages out of 8 or 12 designated for wheelchair users, where the humps are in the core, and where presumably at non core stations, the ramps are kept. Why would a wheelchair user choose to go somewhere else in the train, it makes no sense?

Add to that that if a wheelchair user did go somewhere else in the train they'd most likely be causing an obstruction with their chair, unless they were able to fold and stow it properly themselves.

Another thing of note about very wide aisles is that they're harder to negotiate for those with a far more common form of disability - those who can walk but aren't steady on their feet - who will find it easier to move through a train if they can hold the seat-top handles on both sides of the aisle. (That's similarly why "accessible toilets" aren't good for everyone so a mix is better).

There's too much of a "disabled = wheelchair" view in society, when the vast majority of people with disabilities aren't confined to wheelchairs. Wheelchair users must be provided for, but they aren't the be-all and end-all of disability provision, and some provision for them is negative for others so needs to be balanced. (Obviously step-free access is positive for everyone, for instance, e.g. those with luggage or prams, and large toilets also provide for baby change and the easy ability to take luggage or a pram in with you).
 

43066

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This may have been said before on here, perhaps even by myself, but one issue I have with 700s is on routes with lots of calls and early on in the journey, the onboard announcements listing all the calling points takes almost to the next station to read. Yes almost all announcements on all trains are annoying, but this setup is worse. This also takes away time that more useful displays are on the screens, like carriage occupation levels. My main experience of this has been on Rainham-Luton trains, I suspect on BML services this isn't so bad.

This also used to happen with platform CISs during 319 days, simply because the routes have such a ridiculous number of calls. Sevenoaks - Luton terminators were a particular culprit, the ones extending through to Bedford being even worse!
 

Bletchleyite

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This used to happen with platform CISs during 319 days because the routes have such a ridiculous number of calls. Sevenoaks - Luton terminators were a particular culprit.

The fix for it is a fully clockface regular interval timetable, then everyone knows a TL2 does these calls, say. It would probably have been hard to do this pre COVID due to high commuter demands, but like the WCML is moving back to clockface (as reduced demands allow a bit of thinning) perhaps it should be done for Thameslink too.

People don't find route numbers hard - they're a very familiar thing from bus use.

Similarly Merseyrail reeling off stops is a bit pointless and has only started when they introduced "standard" PIS. "All stations to Ormskirk" or "All stations except Capenhurst to Chester" is perfectly clear enough.
 

43066

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Not sure it necessarily works as well for services where you’ll have a few extra stops in the peak etc. Thameslink is probably too complicated and covers too big an area for it to be practical.

Plus the British public cannot work things out for themselves and need to be given specifics. A fair number of our passengers ask “is this the train for London” when it has “London” written in big yellow letters on the front and side of the train.

Trains with numbers rather than named destinations sounds rather like something out of 1984 to me, I hope it never happens :D!
 
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Domh245

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I would think the best solution (excepting route numbers) might be to announce everything up to & including the core when approaching it, and then announcing the 'other-side' only once you've reached the core (or approaches) - eg

At Wimbledon: "Calling at Haydon's Road, Tooting, Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill, Loughborough Junction, Elephant & Castle, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, St Pancras International, then continuing to Luton"

Then from Blackfriars: "Calling at City Thameslink, Farringdon, St Pancras International, West Hampstead Thameslink, Cricklewood, Hendon, Mill Hill Broadway, Elstree & Borehamwood, Radlett, and Luton"

After all, if you treat Thameslink not as a genuine 'cross london' service but a convenient way of increasing capacity at Northern & Southern Terminii then the real destination doesn't matter, and indeed if the train isn't calling at the stop you require, then you would change at one of the core stations anyway! Something like Sevenoaks where you've got an awful lot of stops still before making it to the core, you may still run into issues but a similar principle could be applied of just announcing the stops before the next 'key' point
 

MikeWM

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Whether it’s right or wrong there never will be consensus, but life in the 21st century is noisy. We have so many electrical devices and no real etiquette to using them has ever reached a consensus.

Indeed so, but I do reserve the right to complain about trends that make putting up with it worse :) and 'all-through' trains are one of those.

---

No, you get the continuous banging, swishing or whatever other noise the door makes instead.

Occasionally (unless the door is broken!). That's hardly comparable to the noise a crying baby or a group of football supporters makes.

I have travelled extensively on the 700s and have never been distrubed by noises in the adjacent car. That it is a real problem is a myth,

Thank you for pointing out that my own personal experiences are mythical. It's odd, I remember being on the train and being annoyed by it, but clearly you know better.

---

At busy times, look how many people have headphones/earbuds. It's probably over half.

Indeed, and I'm a member of that club myself usually. But I'd prefer not to *have* to be.
 

jon0844

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Indeed, and I'm a member of that club myself usually. But I'd prefer not to *have* to be.

Sadly I don't think we have much choice these days. It's more annoying when people smoke weed (or vape with some stupidly fruity concoction) and you're forced to breathe that in for your journey instead. I'd rather just have the noise!
 

Bletchleyite

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Sadly I don't think we have much choice these days. It's more annoying when people smoke weed (or vape with some stupidly fruity concoction) and you're forced to breathe that in for your journey instead. I'd rather just have the noise!

I must admit that while I'm pro legalisation of soft drugs* I find the smell of cannabis utterly vile, and so I wouldn't want to see it being smoked all over the place as it now is in e.g. Canada. I'd probably keep an offence of "causing discomfort to others in the course of drug consumption", "consuming drugs in the presence of others such that discomfort may be caused", or somesuch, so as to ensure people only smoke it at home. That could apply to tobacco containing vapes too, though it'd be hard to apply it to the ones that aren't actually drugs but rather just a physical experience a bit like sticking your head over a pan of boiling Vimto.

On the other hand, and back to the 700, if trains have a genuinely good air conditioning system which brings in/exhausts enough air to/from outside and filters circulated air through a HEPA filter, then it shouldn't really be possible to smell it unless very close to the smoker/vaper. I'm old enough to remember the half-smoker in the old CrossCountry 158s, and back then (before CFCs were banned and they got old) the aircon was almost good enough that you couldn't smell the smokers from the other end of the coach - and most would consider the 158 one of the worst aircon systems.

(Of course smoking and vaping on trains isn't allowed, but realistically people still will on occasion, and thus designing air systems to deal with it is sensible, just like the way planes still have ashtrays so if someone does light up there's somewhere sensible and safe to put it out rather than throwing it in the bin and catching a load of paper towels on fire)
 

bramling

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Sadly I don't think we have much choice these days. It's more annoying when people smoke weed (or vape with some stupidly fruity concoction) and you're forced to breathe that in for your journey instead. I'd rather just have the noise!

The problem is that, especially now, the railway needs to be considering how to attract people for whom rail travel isn’t a distress purchase. An hour with no respite from a screaming baby isn’t going to compete with the car.
 

AM9

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Occasionally (unless the door is broken!). That's hardly comparable to the noise a crying baby or a group of football supporters makes.
I might agree with a football shower deliberately being irritating, but strangely enough, a baby crying is quite natural, and not necessariloy anybody's fault.


Thank you for pointing out that my own personal experiences are mythical. It's odd, I remember being on the train and being annoyed by it, but clearly you know better.
I didn't mention your personal experiences, so I couldn't have presume that they were a myth. Please read what I wrote: "I have travelled extensively on the 700s and have never been distrubed by noises in the adjacent car. That it is a real problem is a myth,"
In the greater scheme of things it isn't a real problem even though some might get a bit irritated at times.
 

MikeWM

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I might agree with a football shower deliberately being irritating, but strangely enough, a baby crying is quite natural, and not necessariloy anybody's fault.

Not claiming it is anyone's fault or that they should somehow shut the baby up, but if it irritates you it is nevertheless preferable to get away from the source of that irritation. That is easier when carriages are separated, with barriers to noise, than when there are no dividers between them.

In the greater scheme of things it isn't a real problem even though some might get a bit irritated at times.

I think my being irritated counts as a 'real' problem. What else would it be - an unreal problem? Of course there are *bigger* problems and far more important issues, but we're not discussing those here.
 

Bletchleyite

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I might agree with a football shower deliberately being irritating, but strangely enough, a baby crying is quite natural, and not necessariloy anybody's fault

A baby's cry has evolved to force adults' brains to want to console it, thus to many it is VERY distressing. Just one of those things of course but because of that animal instinct it's far more distressing to many than the mild irritation of say music played out loud.
 

SE%Traveller

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Something like Sevenoaks where you've got an awful lot of stops still before making it to the core, you may still run into issues but a similar principle could be applied of just announcing the stops before the next 'key' point

21 from St Pancras! when the through service switched to Orpington back in 2018 i always felt like they were were missing half of them...

Something like the platforms announcements would be sufficient i'd have thought. They usually say something lie "Sevenoaks, all stations via Denmark Hill and Swanley" or similar.
 

AM9

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A baby's cry has evolved to force adults' brains to want to console it, thus to many it is VERY distressing. Just one of those things of course but because of that animal instinct it's far more distressing to many than the mild irritation of say music played out loud.
So what, the baby's voice is a natural event, far more than a rowdy bunch of football fans. The first is unavoidable, the second should be silenced if causing problems.
 

ComUtoR

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The trains have 2 carriages out of 8 or 12 designated for wheelchair users, where the humps are in the core, and where presumably at non core stations, the ramps are kept.

Ramps are not always next to the accessible coach. This is because there may be issues with ramp deployment. So other doors are needed.

Emergency access is still an important consideration. Being able to access any part of the train gives you incredible flexibility.
Why would a wheelchair user choose to go somewhere else in the train, it makes no sense?

Maybe they need a pee and the accessible loo is occupied.

Maybe they just don't want to sit in that coach.
 

Bletchleyite

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So what, the baby's voice is a natural event, far more than a rowdy bunch of football fans. The first is unavoidable, the second should be silenced if causing problems.

It's unavoidable, but it's distressing for the reasons I explained to many adults. You can't make it stop, but you can design trains so noises don't echo around them, e.g. by adding more partitions (and not removing them!)
 

Recessio

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21 from St Pancras! when the through service switched to Orpington back in 2018 i always felt like they were were missing half of them...

Something like the platforms announcements would be sufficient i'd have thought. They usually say something lie "Sevenoaks, all stations via Denmark Hill and Swanley" or similar.
If there was a fixed pattern of which stations are skipped by trains (especially north of St P where e.g. Mill Hill Broadway gets skipped), could be a Metropolitan style "this is a semi-fast to Luton" or "this is all-stations to Bedford".
 

AM9

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If there was a fixed pattern of which stations are skipped by trains (especially north of St P where e.g. Mill Hill Broadway gets skipped), could be a Metropolitan style "this is a semi-fast to Luton" or "this is all-stations to Bedford".
There is a fairly fixed pattern of stops between St Pancras and St Albans:
fast - non-stop 2tph​
fast + West Hampstead 2tph​
fast + West Hampstead, Mill Hill, Elstree & Radlett 2tph​
slow (all stops) 2tph​
That represents the off-peak service between the peaks, (assuming there are sufficnet drivers available).
 

Bald Rick

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There is a fairly fixed pattern of stops between St Pancras and St Albans:
fast - non-stop 2tph​
fast + West Hampstead 2tph​
fast + West Hampstead, Mill Hill, Elstree & Radlett 2tph​
slow (all stops) 2tph​
That represents the off-peak service between the peaks, (assuming there are sufficnet drivers available).

north of St Albans there are essentially two stopping patterns - all stations and ‘limited stop’.
 
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I do like the 700’s as I travel on them when I see my dad but I must admit i find the seats a bit too hard and I hate the fact that there’s no plug sockets when the average journey from Peterborough/Cambridge to Horsham/Brighton/Littlehampton etc must be a few hours at least and nearly every mid to long class of train has them as standard. I don’t disagree with you as they’re great units and I agree that the public seem to like them too but I do miss the days when that line was full of 317,321 and 365 units so maybe I’m just biased, I mean they’ve certainly revolutionised the Thaneslink route with the through services. No one can deny that
 
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WizCastro197

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I do like the 700’s as I travel on them when I see my dad but I must admit i find the seats a bit too hard and I hate the fact that there’s no plug sockets when the average journey from Peterborough/Cambridge to Horsham/Brighton/Littlehampton etc must be a few hours at least and nearly every mid to long class of train has them as standard. I don’t disagree with you as they’re great units and I agree that the public seem to like them too but I do miss the days when that line was full of 317,321 and 365 units so maybe I’m just biased, I mean they’ve certainly revolutionised the Thaneslink route with the through services. No one can deny that
Most Stock are being retrofitted with tables and Plug sockets

The trains aren't meant to be used all the way from Cambridge to Brighton otherwise more long distance stock would've been ordered. It is more of a get on get off whenever sort of service


Anyway First Class seats are slightly different I believe.
 
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Most Stock are being retrofitted with tables and Plug sockets

The trains aren't meant to be used all the way from Cambridge to Brighton otherwise more long distance stock would've been ordered. It is more of a get on get off whenever sort of service


Anyway First Class seats are slightly different I believe.
Again I fully agree with you, I must admit I did do the full length run from Cambridge to Brighton and I did have backache fairly early on but that may just be me, I have no other complaints and as I said theyre revolutionary and great trains overall
 
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