Future of SWR's class 158/159 fleet

Drsatan · 8 Aug 2022

I've read in the most recent edition of RAIL that replacement of the 158/159 fleet isn't mentioned in the SWR business plan, even though these trains are 30 years old.

Realistically, what is the future for them? Another refurbishment? I suspect a like-for-like replacement (with new DMUs) won't be authorised as I suspect new trains will be contingent on the electrification of the West of England line as least as far as Salisbury.

The 159s are getting very tatty in standard class and the air conditioning isn't up to scratch.

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swt_passenger · 8 Aug 2022

They’d normally be expected to last 35-40 years. That’ll be why there’s no replacement plan yet. They were already due interior alterations to increase capacity slightly in the First/MTR franchise agreement, but I suspect that’s now on the back burner.

MattRat · 8 Aug 2022

Even if they do get replaced by SWR, they would likely be cascaded elsewhere to replace even older stock. The short HSTs of ScotRail and GWR immediately come to mind.

Snow1964 · 8 Aug 2022

swt_passenger said:
They’d normally be expected to last 35-40 years. That’ll be why there’s no replacement plan yet. They were already due interior alterations to increase capacity slightly in the First/MTR franchise agreement, but I suspect that’s now on the back burner.

I think some of those that were rebuilt from class 158s are already 32-33 years old.

If it takes 3 years to order and commission a fleet (or nearer 5 years if SWR, based on class 701s) then only got max of 2 years if oldest 159s aren’t going to hit 40 years

Irascible · 8 Aug 2022

Snow1964 said:
I think some of those that were rebuilt from class 158s are already 32-33 years old.

If it takes 3 years to order and commission a fleet (or nearer 5 years if SWR, based on class 701s) then only got max of 2 years if oldest 159s aren’t going to hit 40 years

The oldest 159s are going to hit 40 years, what's the practical & palatable replacement at the moment? pure diesel is seemingly off the agenda & hybrids are um, new. They were at least very well looked after under SWT.

Drsatan · 8 Aug 2022

Irascible said:
The oldest 159s are going to hit 40 years, what's the practical & palatable replacement at the moment? pure diesel is seemingly off the agenda & hybrids are um, new. They were at least very well looked after under SWT.

Unfortunately they're not so well looked after under SWR. Air conditioning fails far more than it used to prior to 2017.

61653 HTAFC · 8 Aug 2022

Snow1964 said:
I think some of those that were rebuilt from class 158s are already 32-33 years old.

If it takes 3 years to order and commission a fleet (or nearer 5 years if SWR, based on class 701s) then only got max of 2 years if oldest 159s aren’t going to hit 40 years

The 159/1s are only a matter of weeks/months older than the original 159s- all were built on the same production line at pretty much the same time.

If some sort of bi-mode replacement was ordered, would the 750v power supply between Basingstoke and Waterloo be able to cope with the extra load without an upgrade?

Snow1964 · 9 Aug 2022

61653 HTAFC said:
The 159/1s are only a matter of weeks/months older than the original 159s- all were built on the same production line at pretty much the same time.

If some sort of bi-mode replacement was ordered, would the 750v power supply between Basingstoke and Waterloo be able to cope with the extra load without an upgrade?

I think all the pre-war electrification Waterloo-Brookwood was upgraded about 15-20 years ago when the more powerful class 444 & class 450 came about.

Not sure about the 1960s section, from Brookwood to Worting junction, although it no longer sees regular electric (class 73, 74) boat trains and freight

But SWR aren’t running as many, or as long electric trains on the route as 5 years ago, so I don’t think there would be any problem converting the Salisbury and Exeter trains to bi-modes. Although if cross country or freightliner ever introduced bi-mode power through Basingstoke, then Basingstoke would need an upgrade.

Irascible · 10 Aug 2022

Drsatan said:
Unfortunately they're not so well looked after under SWR. Air conditioning fails far more than it used to prior to 2017.

Yes, this is not amusing me much either. Anyone here work at Salisbury? what's it like now vs then?

507020 · 10 Aug 2022

Drsatan said:
Unfortunately they're not so well looked after under SWR. Air conditioning fails far more than it used to prior to 2017.

Can this definitely not be attributed to the air conditioning being 5 years older now than it was in 2017?

In the immediate future of the 159 fleet, SWR will receive an additional off lease 158 set from TfW to replace the one damaged in the collision.

RobShipway · 10 Aug 2022

A think a few questions need to be asked here.

1) Has the DFT given approval for SWR to look at replacing the class 159/158 fleets?
2) What type of train do you go for in replacing the class 159/158 fleets? Do you go for something like the class 755/756, but being able to operate either on third rail or AC Overhead? Or do you got for something the Hitachi AT300/AT200 tri-mode?
3) Or optionally, do you modify the class 159/158 for future use for another 30 plus years? This question is based on the fact that you can have rolling stock that is being used for over 30 to 40 years with class 73 lovomotives as an example which where originally built in 1962 for the first batch and the second batch between 1965 - 1967.

brad465 · 10 Aug 2022

MattRat said:
Even if they do get replaced by SWR, they would likely be cascaded elsewhere to replace even older stock. The short HSTs of ScotRail and GWR immediately come to mind.

IIRC shorter HSTs was one of the options NSE considered when replacing loco-hauled trains on the WoE route. It would be ridiculous to consider that now

zwk500 · 10 Aug 2022

RobShipway said:
A think a few questions need to be asked here.

1) Has the DFT given approval for SWR to look at replacing the class 159/158 fleets?
2) What type of train do you go for in replacing the class 159/158 fleets? Do you go for something like the class 755/756, but being able to operate either on third rail or AC Overhead? Or do you got for something the Hitachi AT300/AT200 tri-mode?
3) Or optionally, do you modify the class 159/158 for future use for another 30 plus years? This question is based on the fact that you can have rolling stock that is being used for over 30 to 40 years with class 73 lovomotives as an example which where originally built in 1962 for the first batch and the second batch between 1965 - 1967.

I think the most likely option is a Bi-Mode FLIRT (3rd rail/diesel or hydrogen) that could be converted to OLE/battery operation at a later date should it be required. Refurbing the Class 158/159 fleet to the standard requires is going to be unlikely, and the AT300 family doesn't quite fit with how the service operates, whereas the FLIRTs do.

brad465 said:
IIRC shorter HSTs was one of the options NSE considered when replacing loco-hauled trains on the WoE route. It would be ridiculous to consider that now

I think the suggestion was that the 158/159 fleet would replace the short HSTs so that they could be scrapped.

LOL The Irony · 10 Aug 2022

zwk500 said:
Refurbing the Class 158/159 fleet to the standard requires is going to be unlikely, and the AT300 family doesn't quite fit with how the service operates, whereas the FLIRTs do.

The AT100 and AT200 does though, and has doors in the middle to boot. And if they want to go down the Alstom Bombardier route again (although once bitten, twice shy), they could order hydrogen electric bi modes.

zwk500 · 10 Aug 2022

LOL The Irony said:
The AT100 and AT200 does though, and has doors in the middle to boot. And if they want to go down the Alstom Bombardier route again (although once bitten, twice shy), they could order hydrogen electric bi modes.

True, and a variant of the Class 385 would seem to satisfy a lot of the operational requirements although I can't see a DMU or Hybrid version of the AT200 offered anywhere globally. Although I think that also applied to the AT300 when the 80X bi-modes were ordered. FLIRTs appear not to have gangways as a general rule, and while that could be worked around or the design be modified, it's an extra cost that SWR and the DfT would be keen to avoid.
The other option would be an updated Desiro - SWR already have experience with Siemens for the Class 444/450 fleet, and there are DMU options running in the UK.

MattRat · 10 Aug 2022

brad465 said:
IIRC shorter HSTs was one of the options NSE considered when replacing loco-hauled trains on the WoE route. It would be ridiculous to consider that now

vv

zwk500 said:
I think the suggestion was that the 158/159 fleet would replace the short HSTs so that they could be scrapped.

You would be correct. It's an idea that's actually been on the forums for a while, but is often shot down simply because the SWR 158/159s are well loved.

Irascible · 10 Aug 2022

RobShipway said:
A think a few questions need to be asked here.

1) Has the DFT given approval for SWR to look at replacing the class 159/158 fleets?
2) What type of train do you go for in replacing the class 159/158 fleets? Do you go for something like the class 755/756, but being able to operate either on third rail or AC Overhead? Or do you got for something the Hitachi AT300/AT200 tri-mode?
3) Or optionally, do you modify the class 159/158 for future use for another 30 plus years? This question is based on the fact that you can have rolling stock that is being used for over 30 to 40 years with class 73 lovomotives as an example which where originally built in 1962 for the first batch and the second batch between 1965 - 1967.

We have done this several times in the last year or so, if I can remember threads I'll edit some into this post - the Stadler option had the issue that you need all the room you can get at Waterloo & the power modules took some of it away. I don't think there was any conclusion drawn, mostly because by the time any replacements arrive battery might well be an option anyway. A few years ago I'd have heavily pushed for replacing the engines & ancillaries ( we did that for HSTs with ~15 years life left ) but it might be slightly late for that. Still, if the rather overbuilt shells are holding up, it might be an option, same as the westcountry Turbos - chances of wires getting down here in my lifetime are pretty small. It's possible the last few unusually hot summers have just hammered the aircon more - it's not like it was ever very good anyway.

AT200 bimode might be an option, if they can do an end door one - far more need for seats than short dwell times on this route. I will rue the day when the 159s go though, the last breed of comfortable train.

TT-ONR-NRN · 10 Aug 2022

507020 said:
In the immediate future of the 159 fleet, SWR will receive an additional off lease 158 set from TfW to replace the one damaged in the collision.

Really? Where was this reported? (I live in between Woking and Basingstoke when not at Uni so the prospect of getting a TfW 158 on my regular trips to London excited me somewhat)

RobShipway · 10 Aug 2022

Irascible said:
We have done this several times in the last year or so, if I can remember threads I'll edit some into this post - the Stadler option had the issue that you need all the room you can get at Waterloo & the power modules took some of it away. I don't think there was any conclusion drawn, mostly because by the time any replacements arrive battery might well be an option anyway. A few years ago I'd have heavily pushed for replacing the engines & ancillaries ( we did that for HSTs with ~15 years life left ) but it might be slightly late for that. Still, if the rather overbuilt shells are holding up, it might be an option, same as the westcountry Turbos - chances of wires getting down here in my lifetime are pretty small.

AT200 bimode might be an option, if they can do an end door one - far more need for seats than short dwell times on this route. I will rue the day when the 159s go though, the last breed of comfortable train.

Yes, I think it is more likely At200 bi-mode or Stadler flirt with gangeways at the front if possible.

JonathanH · 10 Aug 2022

MattRat said:
You would be correct. It's an idea that's actually been on the forums for a while, but is often shot down simply because the SWR 158/159s are well loved.

It is shot down because there is no viable plan to remove the SWR 158/159s, not because the units are particularly 'well loved'. There are other similar units actually being released which can eliminate GWR HSTs. Moving 158s to Scotland to get rid of their HSTs isn't happening.

As above, at some point something like a 385 with bi-mode capability seems reasonable to replace the 158/159s but it isn't clear what the trigger is going to be to see the funding made available. Besides SWR has enough to deal with getting 701s and rebuilt 458s into service (if that still happens).

507020 said:
In the immediate future of the 159 fleet, SWR will receive an additional off lease 158 set from TfW to replace the one damaged in the collision.

Why would they need one? The full service isn't operating and one less unit is needed in any case now SWR don't go to Bristol any more.

zwk500 · 10 Aug 2022

JonathanH said:
Why would they need one? The full service isn't operating and one less unit is needed in any case now SWR don't go to Bristol any more.

They may need a couple more if the Waterside line gets approved

HarryF · 10 Aug 2022

Wouldn’t a TFW class 158 be an poor fit for SWR? The TFW ones are all Perkins engines which SWR have none of. I would move a TFW 158 to EMR (they do have some Perkins units) and then send 158889 down to SWR, considering it was originally an SWT unit in the Stagecoach daus.

Mikey C · 10 Aug 2022

Irascible said:
We have done this several times in the last year or so, if I can remember threads I'll edit some into this post - the Stadler option had the issue that you need all the room you can get at Waterloo & the power modules took some of it away. I don't think there was any conclusion drawn, mostly because by the time any replacements arrive battery might well be an option anyway. A few years ago I'd have heavily pushed for replacing the engines & ancillaries ( we did that for HSTs with ~15 years life left ) but it might be slightly late for that. Still, if the rather overbuilt shells are holding up, it might be an option, same as the westcountry Turbos - chances of wires getting down here in my lifetime are pretty small. It's possible the last few unusually hot summers have just hammered the aircon more - it's not like it was ever very good anyway.

AT200 bimode might be an option, if they can do an end door one - far more need for seats than short dwell times on this route. I will rue the day when the 159s go though, the last breed of comfortable train.

Reengining DMUs is much harder than locos though, especially with all the modern emissions equipment that new engines need, and which would have to be squeezed in.

Irascible · 11 Aug 2022

Mikey C said:
Reengining DMUs is much harder than locos though, especially with all the modern emissions equipment that new engines need, and which would have to be squeezed in.

Cummins are still making the NTA855 line albeit only for generators - I'm a little curious if any of their later cleaner/more efficient engines are more or less a drop in replacement ( would be nice to spec a few more HP on it so there's more spare for the new aircon! ). I do agree we're not doing very well sticking new power packs under older vehicles at the moment, but at least this one was designed as a DMU...

I'm making guesses here but I suspect the engines & transmissions wont be the things causing problems, but all the other stuff that hasn't been produced for decades.

RobShipway · 11 Aug 2022

Could it be that SWR are leaving it to the market to decide?

The reason for the above question, is that it occurred to me that the answer how to replace the class 158/159 trains with SWR would also be the case that you answer the question on replacing the class 158/150 trains with GWR and also replace the HST trains with GWR and Scotrail. The answer I believe will be either bi-mode or tri-mode.

The answer to replacing the class 158's on GWR, could also lead to replacements for class 165/166 trains in the future.

150249 · 11 Aug 2022

RobShipway said:
Could it be that SWR are leaving it to the market to decide?

The reason for the above question, is that it occurred to me that the answer how to replace the class 158/159 trains with SWR would also be the case that you answer the question on replacing the class 158/150 trains with GWR and also replace the HST trains with GWR and Scotrail. The answer I believe will be either bi-mode or tri-mode.

The answer to replacing the class 158's on GWR, could also lead to replacements for class 165/166 trains in the future.

The Flirts have done well? A possibility?

JonathanH · 11 Aug 2022

RobShipway said:
Could it be that SWR are leaving it to the market to decide?

It isn't exactly SWR's decision to make. The DfT decide which trains need replacement and which should be moved around.

Kite159 · 11 Aug 2022

See if Stadler can produce a 3rd rail version of a 756 for a bulk replacement of the sprinters on SWR and also for most of the Thames Valley services, maybe even extending into the Bristol area.

Although that probably won't be cheap

507020 · 11 Aug 2022

JonathanH said:
It isn't exactly SWR's decision to make. The DfT decide which trains need replacement and which should be moved around.

The DfT can’t decide for Sprinters to stop getting any older or become life expired

Irascible · 11 Aug 2022

RobShipway said:
Could it be that SWR are leaving it to the market to decide?

The reason for the above question, is that it occurred to me that the answer how to replace the class 158/159 trains with SWR would also be the case that you answer the question on replacing the class 158/150 trains with GWR and also replace the HST trains with GWR and Scotrail. The answer I believe will be either bi-mode or tri-mode.

The answer to replacing the class 158's on GWR, could also lead to replacements for class 165/166 trains in the future.

If you sorted the common platform out with saloon options ala 444/450 you could have a rolling program to replace everything from 158 to 170, just like the current family is all vaguely related - economics of scale & it'd make some cinstituency very happy for years. How long did the IEP take in the end? better start that now if you want something by 2035

Stadler's above-floor powerplant takes up precious platform space for WoE - and given how the units are constantly split & cycled, you can't really have one bigger one unless there's a very radical shakeup in the service. If the units didn't need to split you could put all the powerplant at the south-west end & hang it off the end of the platform - you still could have a say six car set for Exeter & a more conventional DMU-like 3 or 4 cars on the back but then you've got two fleets & bang goes all your flexibility.

The 159s made the current popular service ( I didn't really mind what was on there in the 80s but there were only about 20 other people per train who didn't mind too ) - any replacement is going to have to be very good quality or it'll just die again.

Future of SWR's class 158/159 fleet

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