‘Via’, ‘Then’, ‘For’

[Scott M]

On bus destinations displayed at the front of buses I previously only used to see ‘via’, but now ‘then’ and ‘for’ are becoming more commonplace.

Eg:
•West Auckland via Durham
•Durham then West Auckland
•Durham for West Auckland

Is there any difference between the above three or do they all mean the same thing?

Eg does ‘West Auckland via Durham‘ mean it is a normal service throughout, whereas ‘Durham for West Auckland‘ mean that it is express to Durham then a normal service to West Auckland?

 

[mb88]

'Then' and 'for' are usually used when a service is greater than 50km in length and would require drivers to work under more stringent EU driving hours rules as opposed to GB domestic rules. To get round this operators will split a route and register it as two seperate routes with the traffic commissioner. Buses therefore aren't allowed to show the ultimate destination so instead will show the intermediate destination followed by a 'then', 'for', or 'and onwards to' qualifier so the public know they can stay on the bus right through.

 

[Royston Vasey]

'Then' and 'for' are usually used when a service is greater than 50km in length and would require drivers to work under more stringent EU driving hours rules as opposed to GB domestic rules. To get round this operators will split a route and register it as two seperate routes with the traffic commissioner. Buses therefore aren't allowed to show the ultimate destination so instead will show the intermediate destination followed by a 'then', 'for', or 'and onwards to' qualifier so the public know they can stay on the bus right through.

"For" would imply a change onto a different vehicle at Durham onto another bus for West Auckland, wouldn't it?

 

[mb88]

Hmm not really. There could be buses from Durham to any number of other destinations not just West Auckland, and the screen wouldn't list all of them.

 

[SteveM70]

I always took the use of “then” rather than “via” to be where the intermediate place is the major town/city and the bus company want that to appear first on the display (often in larger letters)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As @mb88 says, this is a consequence of the 50km limit associated with EU vs UK domestic driving rules and the guidance for bus operators.

Historically, you would have intermediate points listed in addition to the end destination so a bus leaving Darlington might have been

1 - TOW LAW Via Bishop Auckland

Now it is the guidance that you show the split registration point in a >50km route and then the "for" or "then" is the end destination

1- BISHOP AUCKLAND for TOW LAW

A couple of incidental nuggets for that area. Traditionally, United (Arriva's predecessor) didn't put via points on many of their screens anyway, only in a few instances. There were also a few instances where there were long-standing connection facilities (where through routes had once existed) so the 26 Hawes to Richmond would show Darlington and the 128 Scarborough to Ampleforth would sometimes show Ripon to highlight the connection even though a change was required.

1631 Leyburn

United AS Bristol LH 1631 GUP 915N stands at Leyburn Market Place on Saturday 26-04-86.

www.flickr.com

 

[KendalKing]

Back in the early 1980's, the three main bus routes serving Garstang were:-

140 Morecambe - Garstang - Preston
141 (Winmarleigh/Nateby) - Garstang - Preston
142 Morecambe - Garstang - Preston

Buses on the 142 from Morecambe, sometimes displayed Blackpool for Preston, with passengers changing buses at Garstang onto the 141.

Now a days, due to the 50km rules, buses on service 42 Lancaster - Garstang -Blackpool, display Garstang for Blackpool.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Hmm not really. There could be buses from Durham to any number of other destinations not just West Auckland, and the screen wouldn't list all of them.

Would expect it in practice to be displayed the other way round, [Small intermediate point] FOR [Major town].

Say that the only way to get from, and I'm making this up, Hamsterley to Durham was to change at West Auckland. Or that there was a slow Durham bus from there but the quickest route was changing onto an express bus at West Auckland.

So at Hamsterley you might get a bus to "West Auckland for Durham" as opposed to a Durham via all villages

 

[mb88]

Would expect it in practice to be displayed the other way round, [Small intermediate point] FOR [Major town].

Say that the only way to get from, and I'm making this up, Hamsterley to Durham was to change at West Auckland. Or that there was a slow Durham bus from there but the quickest route was changing onto an express bus at West Auckland.

So at Hamsterley you might get a bus to "West Auckland for Durham" as opposed to a Durham via all villages

As I and others have said, it's got nothing to do with what is a small town, major town or whatever, it's to do with the length of the route being greater than 50km. The bus will display Town A then/for Town B, with Town A being the mid point (or thereabouts) of the route regardless of which out of A or B is the largest town.

 

[TUC]

In some cases, to get around EU tegulations on lengths of individual journeys, operators have split a route in two for registration purposes, but in reality it is the same vehicle operating through. Hence 'Durham for Newcastle'.

 

[PeterC]

It seems a little odd to base the route display on the driver's working hours rather than where the vehicle is going. Would it be different if there was a driver swap at the 50km mark?

Is the destination display issue really an EU rule or just gold plating applied by Westminster? REPEAT - I am talking about the destination display not about how long somebody has been behind the wheel.

 

[mb88]

It seems a little odd to base the route display on the driver's working hours rather than where the vehicle is going. Would it be different if there was a driver swap at the 50km mark?

Is the destination display issue really an EU rule or just gold plating applied by Westminster? REPEAT - I am talking about the destination display not about how long somebody has been behind the wheel.

It's because it is registered with the traffic commissioner as 2 seperate routes so the ultimate destination displayed on the vehicle has to be the terminating point of the first route. And no it wouldnt make a difference if there was a driver change at 50km as the rule is if the route as registered with the Traffic Commisoner is greater than 50km in length, not how many kilometeres each person drives.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I've only ever seen "then" on the handful of journeys which are registered as three separate routes. For example, I seem to recall the X93 (Middlesbrough - Scarborough) used to display "Guisborough for Whitby then Scarborough". I could be wrong but I believe that is one of the main uses for "then".

 

[LiviCrazy]

Seems to be quite a few routes around West Lothian that do this that I don’t think are as long stints as 50km.

I’ve seen Stagecoach’s X51 display Livingston for Glasgow, Harthill for Glasgow, Eurocentral for Glasgow and reverse of the above.

I’ve also seen First’s X22 and X25s do similar.

Is this just to highlight their major destinations?

 

[mb88]

Seems to be quite a few routes around West Lothian that do this that I don’t think are as long stints as 50km.

I’ve seen Stagecoach’s X51 display Livingston for Glasgow, Harthill for Glasgow, Eurocentral for Glasgow and reverse of the above.

I’ve also seen First’s X22 and X25s do similar.

Is this just to highlight their major destinations?

No, it is to comply with driver's hours guidance, as stated numerous times. The X51 is longer than 50km. First's X22 and X25 never display 'then or for'. The only other service in West Lothian that used to do it was Lothian country's X17 which displayed Livingston then Fauldhouse. Fue to it, yes you guessed it, being greater than 50km in length.

 

[RT4038]

It seems a little odd to base the route display on the driver's working hours rather than where the vehicle is going. Would it be different if there was a driver swap at the 50km mark?

Is the destination display issue really an EU rule or just gold plating applied by Westminster? REPEAT - I am talking about the destination display not about how long somebody has been behind the wheel.

It is a workaround of the EU rule sanctioned by the DfT. The EU rule exempting drivers working routes of less than 50km from EU drivers hours rules (i.e. Domestic Rules apply). There is no mention of working consecutive routes of less than 50km, and no case law either in the UK or in Europe to guide. Operators and DfT don't particularly want this to be adjudicated in case the result is more restrictive, nor open cans of worms trying to get the EU rule changed.

 

[LiviCrazy]

No, it is to comply with driver's hours guidance, as stated numerous times. The X51 is longer than 50km. First's X22 and X25 never display 'then or for'. The only other service in West Lothian that used to do it was Lothian country's X17 which displayed Livingston then Fauldhouse. Fue to it, yes you guessed it, being greater than 50km in length.

Have definitely seen First do that.
Here’s an example on Flickr (not my photo) from 1 October of one on the X22 displayed as Livingston onto Shotts.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/quomaneastlothian/50412267916/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is a workaround of the EU rule sanctioned by the DfT. The EU rule exempting drivers working routes of less than 50km from EU drivers hours rules (i.e. Domestic Rules apply). There is no mention of working consecutive routes of less than 50km, and no case law either in the UK or in Europe to guide. Operators and DfT don't particularly want this to be adjudicated in case the result is more restrictive, nor open cans of worms trying to get the EU rule changed.

I was going to reply to @PeterC but you've done a much better job than me.

It's a clunky workaround without trying to alter EU rules. After 31st Dec, that may change but I think the government has more pressing issues.

Have definitely seen First do that.
Here’s an email an example on Flickr (not my photo) from 1 October of one on the X22 displayed as Livingston onto Shotts.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/quomaneastlothian/50412267916/

Suspect that the X22 was not affected but only once it was extended to Shotts.

 

[mb88]

Have definitely seen First do that.
Here’s an example on Flickr (not my photo) from 1 October of one on the X22 displayed as Livingston onto Shotts.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/quomaneastlothian/50412267916/

Edinburgh to Shotts on the X22 is definitely more than 50km.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Edinburgh to Shotts on the X22 is definitely more than 50km.

Just looked, seems X25 to Blackridge is just over the 50km too. Forget how long bus routes can be compared to direct routes sometimes.

 

[WM Bus]

The X2's that extend to St Peters School currently display.
"X2 Solihull then St Peters".

With the "then St Peters" where the via point normally is.

Which will be because Solihull Town Centre is the main place the service is going to and continues to St Peters School afterwards.


X12's used to display "Airport then City via Chelmsley Wood" as well, but that changed to "Birmingham via Chelmsley Wood" recently. So its now in line with all the other NXWM displays.

It would have used the word "then" because this is a long indirect service between Birmingham and Solihull serving Airport and Chelmsley Wood first. And not direct to Birmingham City Centre like the X2 is.

 

[GusB]

There are a few Stagecoach North Scotland routes that this applies to as well, the 10 being one example. The changeover points are Nairn, Elgin, Huntly and Inverurie and will show those destinations with "for Aberdeen" or "for Inverness" depending on direction.

Please see this (now closed) thread for a previous discussion on the subject of using this practice to avoid EU regulations:

Splitting up long services to avoid EU driving hours regulations

spawned from discussion in http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=154581 It's quite surprising that bus operators can split bus services to take advantage of the (incredibly lax!) GB driving hours regs, even though they're greater than the 50km route length limit required for these rules...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[TheSel]

Yeah - 'then' and 'for' well covered above.

Just to clarify 'via' - from Latin, and means 'by way of'. So, for example, you have two routes from A to B, following different routes. On leaving 'A', you might well be required to show 'B via C' or 'B via D' - according to the route being followed. Yes, you could argue that the route number should provide the same information to those 'in the know', but the 'via C' or 'via D' might well be very useful in areas with a significant tourist flow to C or D.

An example - attached is a picture of Arriva North West 4578, working 'Main Line' route 47 from Southport to Liverpool, during the Open Golf Championships in 2017. There are two routes from Southport to Liverpool (plus the train, of course), and these routes share some of the same stops on the town's main street, Lord Street - the 47 and the 300. The 47 quite literally passed the main gate for the Golf Championships - the 300, not within two miles, so for the during of the Golf Championships, 47's showed 'Liverpool via Royal Birkdale', rather than plain 'Liverpool'.

 

[43055]

I think it is all down to the operator and route. Obviously there is the length discussion which has some sway in what can be shown.

Although trentbarton normally down use 'via', 'for' or 'then' on the destinations they do on the Ilkeston Flyer with them shown as: Ilkeston fast then Cotmanhay. This being that Ilkeston is the larger destination and it also shows that it is limited stop in places until then.

I have also seen 'for' used as 'connect for' on the 5's in north Wales but that's probably because the route number changes in Bangor.

 

[Stan Drews]

Some operator’s (like Transdev) choose to use ‘then’ rather than ‘via’ (even on conventional routes less than the previously discussed 50km threshold), as there is a belief that a growing number of people do not know what ‘via’ means. That is probably a sign of the times, but I’m certainly aware that many phrases that were common place when I was but a lad, are often met with blank stares from those of a younger generation!
I think the argument is largely that if you were at Burnley bus station, and asked where a bus went, it’s more likely that someone would now describe it general speech as Nelson then Colne, rather than Colne via Nelson. Therefore, showing bus destinations in that format does make some sense.

 

[GusB]

Some operator’s (like Transdev) choose to use ‘then’ rather than ‘via’ (even on conventional routes less than the previously discussed 50km threshold), as there is a belief that a growing number of people do not know what ‘via’ means. That is probably a sign of the times, but I’m certainly aware that many phrases that were common place when I was but a lad, are often met with blank stares from those of a younger generation!
I think the argument is largely that if you were at Burnley bus station, and asked where a bus went, it’s more likely that someone would now describe it general speech as Nelson then Colne, rather than Colne via Nelson. Therefore, showing bus destinations in that format does make some sense.

And yet most of the younger generation carry devices which allow them to look up the meanings of such terms in an instant!

 

[noddingdonkey]

Does the technology exist to have destination blinds change automatically once a bus has passed an intermediate place listed as via? Consider a service displaying

DESTINATION via A and B

A passenger who is not familiar with the local routes or geography in location B might reasonably expect that bus to take them to point A when in fact they need a service in the opposite direction.

 

[omnicity4659]

Does the technology exist to have destination blinds change automatically once a bus has passed an intermediate place listed as via? Consider a service displaying

DESTINATION via A and B

A passenger who is not familiar with the local routes or geography in location B might reasonably expect that bus to take them to point A when in fact they need a service in the opposite direction.

Go North East does something similar where displays change from "Newcastle" to "Eldon Square", "Haymarket" or "Central Station" when approaching the last major calling point en route. So the technology is there, I presume it would just be time consuming and the files sent to the bus will be quite heavy.

 

[kez19]

Go North East does something similar where displays change from "Newcastle" to "Eldon Square", "Haymarket" or "Central Station" when approaching the last major calling point en route. So the technology is there, I presume it would just be time consuming and the files sent to the bus will be quite heavy.

I have noticed on a few pics of GNE they seem to vary on their newer fleet though.

here is one with >> then area and below >> (arrow)

*credit* to photographers

GNE 6371 - PHOTO: snakebite90
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bazza...V3YPV-2jV7C7H-2jV4PcQ-2jV5Ax5-2jV5A9Q-2jV1bhf

this one displays >> express service with via points -- GNE 6370 PHOTO: Peter Barclay
https://www.flickr.com/photos/27204...UE39A-2jUzBmZ-2jUE1dX-2jUD3Y8-2jUCgsn-2jUD35z

 

[omnicity4659]

I have noticed on a few pics of GNE they seem to vary on their newer fleet though.

here is one with >> then area and below >> (arrow)

*credit* to photographers

GNE 6371 - PHOTO: snakebite90
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bazza...V3YPV-2jV7C7H-2jV4PcQ-2jV5Ax5-2jV5A9Q-2jV1bhf

this one displays >> express service with via points -- GNE 6370 PHOTO: Peter Barclay
https://www.flickr.com/photos/27204...UE39A-2jUzBmZ-2jUE1dX-2jUD3Y8-2jUCgsn-2jUD35z

The latter photo is what has been applied to all buses with that display set-up. The first photo was just when they entered service, only lasted a couple of weeks like that.