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158’s with no air conditioning

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Grecian 1998

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GWR's air-cooled 165s are generally much more pleasant to travel on in summer than the 166s with their ropey air con. Don't recall ever being on a 165 with failed air cooling since they moved west.

The 158's have always had bad air con but wouldn't painting the 158's roofs white help, I remember the old pre refurb ginster 158 seemed cooler in the summer with its silver roof.

Whilst the immediate downside of painting a DMU roof white is that it would get absolutely filthy in no time at all from the exhaust, I have wondered if painting trains in a light coloured livery is a way of reducing pressure on the air con in hot weather. Maybe the DFT's apparent preference for largely white liveries (presumably to reduce repainting costs on change of operator) makes practical as well as financial sense.
 
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Rhydgaled

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Whilst the immediate downside of painting a DMU roof white is that it would get absolutely filthy in no time at all from the exhaust, I have wondered if painting trains in a light coloured livery is a way of reducing pressure on the air con in hot weather. Maybe the DFT's apparent preference for largely white liveries (presumably to reduce repainting costs on change of operator) makes practical as well as financial sense.
Isn't this why Arriva Trains Wales painted the rooves of the 158s light grey (or was it silver?) when they repainted them in their final (otherwise quite dark) colour scheme?
 

wobman

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GWR's air-cooled 165s are generally much more pleasant to travel on in summer than the 166s with their ropey air con. Don't recall ever being on a 165 with failed air cooling since they moved west.



Whilst the immediate downside of painting a DMU roof white is that it would get absolutely filthy in no time at all from the exhaust, I have wondered if painting trains in a light coloured livery is a way of reducing pressure on the air con in hot weather. Maybe the DFT's apparent preference for largely white liveries (presumably to reduce repainting costs on change of operator) makes practical as well as financial sense.
Network rail paint rails white in certain areas and white paint can be washed, just look a countries with hot climates a lot of properties are painted white. Also I've had a black car and never again would I buy 1 in that colour as it was unbearable in the summer. It's just an easy cheap idea for helping keeping trains cool in this mad weather
 

dave87016

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I travelled on 158789 from Sheffield to Scarborough a few weeks ago it was a very hot day the train was roasting , as we left Sheffield the guard came round checking tickets i politely asked him to open the window he refused and said no , people got annoyed at his failure to open the windows on what was a sweltering unit


A change of guard at Hull upon departure from said station a very nice young attractive female guard came round for a ticket check very pleasant polite and chatty and she opened the windows when I asked her I smiled and thanked her

Not the first time I’ve had guards refusing to open them surely in this weather on a sweltering hot train and with Covid around it makes sense to open them my local bus company leaves all their windows open on their new latest buses whatever the weather
 

Bletchleyite

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My house key opens them. This is strictly speaking a Byelaw offence, but if the railway is putting my safety in danger I will open them and I have done before (to a round of applause and requests from around the coach to open more).
 

skyhigh

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I travelled on 158789 from Sheffield to Scarborough a few weeks ago it was a very hot day the train was roasting , as we left Sheffield the guard came round checking tickets i politely asked him to open the window he refused and said no , people got annoyed at his failure to open the windows on what was a sweltering unit


A change of guard at Hull upon departure from said station a very nice young attractive female guard came round for a ticket check very pleasant polite and chatty and she opened the windows when I asked her I smiled and thanked her

Not the first time I’ve had guards refusing to open them surely in this weather on a sweltering hot train and with Covid around it makes sense to open them my local bus company leaves all their windows open on their new latest buses whatever the weather
Depends. If the aircon was functioning correctly and the unit had only just started up after sunning itself in the Sheffield Sidings, then the best course of action is to leave the windows closed and let the aircon do it's thing. Not that many buses have air con in the saloon from my experience.
 

gallafent

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Not that many buses have air con in the saloon from my experience.
Agreed. The only ones I've known to have it round here are the Mercedes / Citaro ones. Very nice too. Especially in the winter, when it avoids the horrible sodden wet experience, musty smell, condensation dripping down the insides of the windows, etc., which is characteristic of “normal” buses, including brand new ones.
 

bunnahabhain

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I travelled on 158789 from Sheffield to Scarborough a few weeks ago it was a very hot day the train was roasting , as we left Sheffield the guard came round checking tickets i politely asked him to open the window he refused and said no , people got annoyed at his failure to open the windows on what was a sweltering unit


A change of guard at Hull upon departure from said station a very nice young attractive female guard came round for a ticket check very pleasant polite and chatty and she opened the windows when I asked her I smiled and thanked her

Not the first time I’ve had guards refusing to open them surely in this weather on a sweltering hot train and with Covid around it makes sense to open them my local bus company leaves all their windows open on their new latest buses whatever the weather
No doubt that unit now has very definitely knackered aircon because "the customer is always right" even though they don't know everything.

I've had perfectly working aircon that I'd been working hard to keep coaches cool ruined by other members of staff overstepping the mark and opening the windows. The coach quickly warmed up due to the influx of hot air from outside, the aircon overworked itself and spat out the coolant fluid and ceased working for weeks.

The biggest enemy to aircon units on 158s are people who don't know how to say no.
 

bramling

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No doubt that unit now has very definitely knackered aircon because "the customer is always right" even though they don't know everything.

I've had perfectly working aircon that I'd been working hard to keep coaches cool ruined by other members of staff overstepping the mark and opening the windows. The coach quickly warmed up due to the influx of hot air from outside, the aircon overworked itself and spat out the coolant fluid and ceased working for weeks.

The biggest enemy to aircon units on 158s are people who don't know how to say no.

But surely the point is that the train was already “roasting hot”. If that was the case then the air conditioning clearly wasn’t performing well. Opening the windows at least gives some immediate air circulation, which is more agreeable to passengers than taking a gamble on whether the air conditioning might decide to work.

To be honest in that situation I’d have sympathy for anyone who decided to find their own way of opening the windows.
 

edwin_m

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But surely the point is that the train was already “roasting hot”. If that was the case then the air conditioning clearly wasn’t performing well. Opening the windows at least gives some immediate air circulation, which is more agreeable to passengers than taking a gamble on whether the air conditioning might decide to work.
Seems to me the best approach would be, if the conductor knew the train had been sitting in the sun with engines shut down, to explain this to any passengers and come back down 20min or so later to see if the a/c was having any effect.
 

Grumpy Git

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If you know where the cool air outlet vents are, it should be obvious pretty quickly if the system is working?

It's really not difficult to detect air cooler than ambient, which is what a working unit will pump out in very short order.
 

bunnahabhain

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If you know where the cool air outlet vents are, it should be obvious pretty quickly if the system is working?

It's really not difficult to detect air cooler than ambient, which is what a working unit will pump out in very short order.
Its one of the first things I do when I board a train, inspect the aircon panels, check how well it's blowing in the cab, then in each saloon check how well the No1 and No2 units are working and if they're cooking efficiently. Takes me a few seconds and ensures I don't end up opening windows when they don't need to be open.
 

mark-h

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No doubt that unit now has very definitely knackered aircon because "the customer is always right" even though they don't know everything.
Assuming it was still too hot after the train had travelled from Sheffield to Hull (where the staff change took place) then it is likely that the system was not working.
 

Tynwald

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If it is working, it will kick in within a couple of minutes. Will take some time for the saloon tempreture to drop. Its a crap system, cheap, and would be difficult, and non cost effective to upgrade.
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed. The only ones I've known to have it round here are the Mercedes / Citaro ones. Very nice too. Especially in the winter, when it avoids the horrible sodden wet experience, musty smell, condensation dripping down the insides of the windows, etc., which is characteristic of “normal” buses, including brand new ones.

The forced air system required by TfL spec also solves this issue.
 

scotraildriver

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Did the 'new' systems fitted on ScotRail, EMR etc. class 158s retain the leaky pipe work that some have said is a problem with the class 158's original system? If those posters reporting issues with pipework are correct, it sounds like a completely new system with a very different design (minimising pipework and not reusing any of the original pipes) is needed.
No. The leibherr system has 2 self contained modules on the roof. You can see where the previous long pipework runs have been cut off in the cupboard at the a/c controller.
 

GoneSouth

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Not that many buses have air con in the saloon from my experience.
I’ve seen quite a few Stagecoach West ones with air con but the funny thing is their Covid rules tell them to keep all the windows OPEN right now which completely negates the the effect of the air con and probably pushes up the fuel consumption quite a bit too!
 

Goldfish62

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The forced air system required by TfL spec also solves this issue.
When it works. Like all things it requires maintenance, something which the operators' engineers seem reluctant to carry out...

Misleading image... What train is that? Clearly not an IC125 (or a 158) since it has openning hopper windows and, judging by the way the carpet stops in the foreground, doors at thirds...
Its a Networker. There's no carpet.
 

Flying Snail

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No doubt that unit now has very definitely knackered aircon because "the customer is always right" even though they don't know everything.

I've had perfectly working aircon that I'd been working hard to keep coaches cool ruined by other members of staff overstepping the mark and opening the windows. The coach quickly warmed up due to the influx of hot air from outside, the aircon overworked itself and spat out the coolant fluid and ceased working for weeks.

The biggest enemy to aircon units on 158s are people who don't know how to say no.

Sorry but despite this being a widely held belief it is 100% wrong.

Opening windows, doors or any other opening you can create in a 158, other rolling stock, road coach, office, fridge or any other air conditioned location will NOT break the A/C system, it just won't.

You just don't understand how A/C works if you think this. The temperature on the cold side has little effect on the unit's operation unless it gets so cold the evaporator builds up a layer of ice. The location where the blown cold air goes or the ambient temperature of that location, particularly if it is at the end of a long duct is completely divorced from the operation of the unit, it just can't have the sort of catastrophic effect on it you suggest.

Opening windows will certainly reduce or nullify the ability of a functional A/C unit to cool the inside of the coach but that is the only effect it will have. If the outside air temp is lower than the temp the A/C is set to achieve it may cause the system to switch off if the temp sensor is in the breeze from an open window, again this can lead to the coach not being cooled very well but as switching off when set temp is reached is a normal function of the unit this will not damage it in any way.

The majority of A/C units typically run at 100% all the time, most A/C compressors only have 1 speed setting (although automotive belt-driven compressors will often not be able to run at full speed when the car/bus engine is at idle), so there is no ability to "overwork" the system. The hot side (condenser) can get too hot but that again will have nothing to do with the location the cold air is vented to. The cooling fans breaking and the fans or condenser getting clogged up would be the only likely reasons that would happen.

The temp range the systems are designed to operate in greatly exceeds anything ambient British summer can generate, a unit sat all day in the direct sun will be far hotter than the outside temp both in the saloon and even more so in the roof space the A/C occupies yet a working unit will start up and run in those conditions.

The simple fact is that A/C units in moving vehicles are quite fragile, it doesn't take much to loosen a join or weld in copper pipes and the smallest crack will vent refrigerant and render the unit non-functional.

I worked with road coaches for a long time, typically you'd be doing well to get 3 years out of a new coach before the A/C would fail, only regular checks and maintenance keeps them functional long term.
 

LowLevel

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Sorry but despite this being a widely held belief it is 100% wrong.

Opening windows, doors or any other opening you can create in a 158, other rolling stock, road coach, office, fridge or any other air conditioned location will NOT break the A/C system, it just won't.

You just don't understand how A/C works if you think this. The temperature on the cold side has little effect on the unit's operation unless it gets so cold the evaporator builds up a layer of ice. The location where the blown cold air goes or the ambient temperature of that location, particularly if it is at the end of a long duct is completely divorced from the operation of the unit, it just can't have the sort of catastrophic effect on it you suggest.

Opening windows will certainly reduce or nullify the ability of a functional A/C unit to cool the inside of the coach but that is the only effect it will have. If the outside air temp is lower than the temp the A/C is set to achieve it may cause the system to switch off if the temp sensor is in the breeze from an open window, again this can lead to the coach not being cooled very well but as switching off when set temp is reached is a normal function of the unit this will not damage it in any way.

The majority of A/C units typically run at 100% all the time, most A/C compressors only have 1 speed setting (although automotive belt-driven compressors will often not be able to run at full speed when the car/bus engine is at idle), so there is no ability to "overwork" the system. The hot side (condenser) can get too hot but that again will have nothing to do with the location the cold air is vented to. The cooling fans breaking and the fans or condenser getting clogged up would be the only likely reasons that would happen.

The temp range the systems are designed to operate in greatly exceeds anything ambient British summer can generate, a unit sat all day in the direct sun will be far hotter than the outside temp both in the saloon and even more so in the roof space the A/C occupies yet a working unit will start up and run in those conditions.

The simple fact is that A/C units in moving vehicles are quite fragile, it doesn't take much to loosen a join or weld in copper pipes and the smallest crack will vent refrigerant and render the unit non-functional.

I worked with road coaches for a long time, typically you'd be doing well to get 3 years out of a new coach before the A/C would fail, only regular checks and maintenance keeps them functional long term.

The 158 thermostat is indeed in the breeze path of open windows, if I remember rightly which is one issue, it can cause the heaters to trip in if the system hasn't failed into vent mode or been isolated. If it thinks it's under 21 degrees it will turn the heating on.

However the system very definitely trips out if it works too hard. It doesn't just become ineffective, it stops working completely, whether the micropack detects it (ERR HP TRIP) or not (HI COOLING with no actual functioning ACUs - they just stop working and the system fails to detect it - that seems to be when they've developed the hydraulic lock and gone bang properly). ERR LP TRIP is the result of low pressure in the system and a refrigerant leak. Either way you get a loud pop from the solenoids and relays in the cupboard and it all shuts down.

If I remember rightly the class 158 air conditioning specification is to cool to 21 degrees from up to 5 or 6 degrees above that.
 

Rhydgaled

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Looks like a 465.
Its a Networker. There's no carpet.
Thanks both for the answer.

No. The leibherr system has 2 self contained modules on the roof. You can see where the previous long pipework runs have been cut off in the cupboard at the a/c controller.
Interesting. I guess what we need now are detailed reliability statistics for the air-con on 158s fitted with the leibherr system versus those using the original pipework, so that we can have a quantitative comparison like the 'Golden Spanners' for reliability of the trains themselves.
 

Failed Unit

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From my ventures around EMR yesterday, I saw 5x 158s. 2 with windows open on 1 set, the others windows fully closed. Dangerous assumption - the sets with the windows closed (8/10) had working air-conditioning. All the 156s were also perfectly fine inside with the windows open (but I didn't get on any of them while they were in Greenhouse mode at a terminal)
 

edwin_m

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All the 156s were also perfectly fine inside with the windows open (but I didn't get on any of them while they were in Greenhouse mode at a terminal)
If you were to travel on those 156s you'd find they were like wind tunnels, any sort of conversation impossible, and pretty much guaranteed to bring on hay fever for anyone susceptible to the local pollen at the time. I don't get it badly but around June I can only use 156s by sitting in a backward-facing seat near the front of the coach. Opening a hopper vent hardly cools the person sat beneath it who has the "right" to control it, but creates a draught for people three or four rows behind, who may not want it. And when it rains those people get wet too.

That might all be tolerable for a rural branch line, but some form of working aircon is pretty much essential on the sort of inter-urban journeys 158s were designed for, where the greatest opportunity probably exists to get people out of their (air-conditioned) cars as our climate gets warmer with more humidity and summer storms.
 

Grumpy Git

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All the system needs to be efficient (assuming it's working correctly in the first place), is interlocks on the hoppers. If a hopper is open, the aircon (cooling) turns off.
 

edwin_m

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All the system needs to be efficient (assuming it's working correctly in the first place), is interlocks on the hoppers. If a hopper is open, the aircon (cooling) turns off.
Not sure it's necessary if staff are properly trained and have access to the relevant system controls. The hoppers aren't exactly precision engineering, sometimes locked closed on only one side, and adding interlocks just introduces four more points of failure per coach.
 
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