2 trains in Kent forced to make emergency stop due to cyclists ignoring safety lights at crossings

[Revilo]

Idiotic behaviour. But is it actually illegal to cross when the lights are red on a footpath level crossing? Obviously it is for highway level crossings.

 

[rail-god]

At the end of the day. You will never win against a train.....

THE END !!!!!

 

[14xxDave]

Idiotic behaviour. But is it actually illegal to cross when the lights are red on a footpath level crossing? Obviously it is for highway level crossings.

No. It is abject stupidity though.

 

[185]

Stupid as they are, I'd rather have these impatient idiots crossing illegally infront of my train anyday ...than an impatient idiot driving a 70mph 2-tonne metal box jumping the lights at a crossing.

 

[TheEdge]

In what way in europe specifically? Faster, heavier more frequent trains? Stazi police waiting?

Because on the continent the public are expected to recognise that railways are dangerous and take suitable steps to avoid being run over. Lines aren't fenced like they are in the UK, crossings are not all Fort Knox style ridiculousness like they are here. Its expected that with common sense people will be aware of trains. Its not up to the railways there to protect people from themselves.

Stupid as they are, I'd rather have these impatient idiots crossing illegally infront of my train anyday ...than an impatient idiot driving a 70mph 2-tonne metal box crossing illegally.

I suppose at least with a cyclist no one else is going to die if it all goes wrong...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Idiotic behaviour from the crossing users. Perhaps network rail should install electromagnets to lock the gate when the red light shows (with emergency release buttons on the rail side) (that is the assumption nothing like that already exists on those crossings)

But I suspect those are not the only crossings to have near misses as people make use of foot crossings on walks/rides in their local areas, especially on popular routes (that one near Newhaven springs to mind)

I don't know if this exists already?

Last summer, I witnessed a car driver attempting to open the barriers at Southease (locals have a key I believe). The pedestrian light was red. The barrier raised slightly - then lowered suddenly shortly before the Brighton-Seaford train hurtled around the corner

I could be mistaken though

 

[bramling]

but we do "chuck it all in"

That’s the differentiation I was trying to make. “Chucking it all in” is pressing a button or moving a handle from one notch to another. It isn’t quite as dramatic as doing an emergency stop in a car, which as we both know will stop in rather shorter than a train.

To me, “slamming on” the brakes implies that a train driver can do much to avoid the situation, which in reality they can’t.

If someone runs across a crossing whilst a train is on the immediate approach, unless the train is already travelling very slowly, anything a train driver can do is likely to make very little difference in practice.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

The barriers could be made stronger, so one could not climb over or duck under them, and they could close sooner.

+2: makes driving a bit more unattractive

 

[Nottingham59]

Both units came to a stand just on the crossing. I'm sure there will be someone who could calculate the time/distance of all parties involved.

In both cases there is over 8 seconds between the last cyclist clearing the track and the front of the train arriving at the crossing. Assuming the train brakes were applied at the point when that cyclist was actually crossing the line, then there would have been at least 4 seconds clear if the train had continued without braking at all.

 

[TheEdge]

That’s the differentiation I was trying to make. “Chucking it all in” is pressing a button or moving a handle from one notch to another. It isn’t quite as dramatic as doing an emergency stop in a car, which as we both know will stop in rather shorter than a train.

To me, “slamming on” the brakes implies that a train driver can do much to avoid the situation, which in reality they can’t.

If someone runs across a crossing whilst a train is on the immediate approach, unless the train is already travelling very slowly, anything a train driver can do is likely to make very little difference in practice.

I'm not sure about you but last time I slammed the brakes on in a train to avoid hitting a group of children it was fairly dramatic. What with the loud air dump, hard deceleration and horn sounding.

As to it not doing much I'm fairly sure there is a teenager still walking about Suffolk who probably wouldn't have been if I'd passed over the crossing at 55 instead of the 15 and braking it was in the event.

 

[14xxDave]

In both cases there is over 8 seconds between the last cyclist clearing the track and the front of the train arriving at the crossing. Assuming the train brakes were applied at the point when that cyclist was actually crossing the line, then there would have been at least 4 seconds clear if the train had continued without braking at all.

Actually in the first case it was less than 5 seconds and you can see that the first rider saw the train coming and hurried his mates on. The second was just under 7 seconds. Either way they all ignored the instructions. Lucky people really. One day that luck will run out.

 

[Llanigraham]

In both cases there is over 8 seconds between the last cyclist clearing the track and the front of the train arriving at the crossing. Assuming the train brakes were applied at the point when that cyclist was actually crossing the line, then there would have been at least 4 seconds clear if the train had continued without braking at all.

And it only needs one of them to stumble or trip and ..........................................ambulance needed!

 

[DorkingMain]

I suppose at least with a cyclist no one else is going to die if it all goes wrong...

It's definitely possible a bicycle under the front wheels could derail a train at speed.

 

[TheEdge]

It's definitely possible a bicycle under the front wheels could derail a train at speed.

Not once you've accounted for obstacle deflectors and the light construction of cycles.

If a train can slam through a tree, tractor or car at speed and be fine a bike is no problem.

 

[14xxDave]

Not once you've accounted for obstacle deflectors and the light construction of cycles.

If a train can slam through a tree, tractor or car at speed and be fine a bike is no problem.

The problem with a bike is it's lots of spindly bits held together with some very tough bits and the soft bits can get deformed no problem but hardened steel shafts at the correct angle can lift a wheel set. Trees etc. tend to present a blank face to a unit. The process of derailment is a very complex one to say the least.

 

[bramling]

The problem with a bike is it's lots of spindly bits held together with some very tough bits and the soft bits can get deformed no problem but hardened steel shafts at the correct angle can lift a wheel set. Trees etc. tend to present a blank face to a unit. The process of derailment is a very complex one to say the least.

Out of interest, has it ever happened that a bicycle has derailed a train?

 

[High Dyke]

I suppose at least with a cyclist no one else is going to die if it all goes wrong...

I know what you mean, but that isn't the point. Any driver who has been involved in a fatality will tell you. There's also the signaller answering the Railway Emergency Call (REC), or the MOM / Emergency services who have to respond to the site.

We've had some recent trespass / near miss incidents involving people at foot crossings in the my route area. One mitigation has been to put up additional signage in Eastern European languages to highlight the dangers of misusing the crossings.

 

[TheEdge]

I know what you mean, but that isn't the point. Any driver who has been involved in a fatality will tell you. There's also the signaller answering the Railway Emergency Call (REC), or the MOM / Emergency services who have to respond to the site.

We've had some recent trespass / near miss incidents involving people at foot crossings in the my route area. One mitigation has been to put up additional signage in Eastern European languages to highlight the dangers of misusing the crossings.

Oh I know, just the dark way I like to think. I know they are no fun for anyone involved but the less death the better.

On one of my routes we're in the process of having three heavily misused crossings (by cars, bikes and pedestrians) being replaced with full barriers and an R/G foot crossing. I'm sure the foot crossing will see exactly the same amount of misuse and there will probably be complaints that there is no warning of approaching trains now the whistle board that the same locals have been complaining about is gone.

Meanwhile Network Rail are in a constant fight with a local council at another station on the same line because of massive misuse issue by (mainly) non passengers at a station barrow crossing which Network Rail claims (correctly) is private land and want to close whereas the council (incorrectly) claim is an essential right of way.

Crossing misuse is a real bugbear of mine.

 

[14xxDave]

Out of interest, has it ever happened that a bicycle has derailed a train?

Good question and one I don't know. Maybe someone else can step in.

 

[philthetube]

Oh I know, just the dark way I like to think. I know they are no fun for anyone involved but the less death the better.

On one of my routes we're in the process of having three heavily misused crossings (by cars, bikes and pedestrians) being replaced with full barriers and an R/G foot crossing. I'm sure the foot crossing will see exactly the same amount of misuse and there will probably be complaints that there is no warning of approaching trains now the whistle board that the same locals have been complaining about is gone.

Meanwhile Network Rail are in a constant fight with a local council at another station on the same line because of massive misuse issue by (mainly) non passengers at a station barrow crossing which Network Rail claims (correctly) is private land and want to close whereas the council (incorrectly) claim is an essential right of way.

Crossing misuse is a real bugbear of mine.

They could both be right.

Unfortunately the resolution might only happen after a fatality

 

[1955LR]

They could both be right.

Unfortunately the resolution might only happen after a fatality

Agree, the fact its on private land does in no way preclude it being a public right of way, and like a lot of footpaths it becomes very messy to resolve if in dispute.

 

[peters]

Agree, the fact its on private land does in no way preclude it being a public right of way, and like a lot of footpaths it becomes very messy to resolve if in dispute.

There's been a dispute over a footpath on farmland not far from me. It's not on the current unitary council's Public Right of Way map but a map produced by the previous county council did show it as a footpath. The land is owned by Crown Estate but the farmer who is leasing the land put up a padlocked gate with barbed wire across the top. Result is it's now a 3 way dispute with 3 different solutions proposed:
1. The farmer wants the gate to remain with no public access.
2. Residents (back by the council) want the gate to be removed.
3. Crown Estate want a compromise with seasonal path available to the public, which the farmer can close off at certain times of the year.

 

[Spartacus]

Out of interest, has it ever happened that a bicycle has derailed a train?

Worst I’ve ever heard of is a ruptured fuel tank or damage to underfloor equipment. Bikes getting hit, usually thrown on by vandals, is practically a daily occurrence. Now technically the chance of a bike derailing a train won’t be zero, but given the number hit it must be very, very small.

Running red lights in general isn’t just a cyclist thing, one thing earlier lockdowns illustrated is that there’s a shocking number of motorists who won’t stop at red road lights, let alone level crossings, unless they’re being physically obstructed, either by crossing traffic or someone stopping in front of them, and then there’s those that’ll go around them regardless.

 

[skyhigh]

The barriers could be made stronger, so one could not climb over or duck under them, and they could close sooner.

+2: makes driving a bit more unattractive

Which is a bad idea, because if someone was trapped on the inside they wouldn't be able to get out.

If the barriers were closed for longer, you'd be giving and incentive to have people rush or climb the barriers, as they think they have more time to cross and don't want to wait longer periods of time.

Also I thought this was a foot crossing, so I don't see what link this has to driving?

 

[Steve Harris]

Out of interest, has it ever happened that a bicycle has derailed a train?

I have not heard of it happening.
What I will say is that in the 90's I was on a 153 on the Newquay branch and we ran over 2 cow's. Unit remainded on the tracks, 1 cow dead, other had to have a vet called to be put out of it's misery. Unit unable to move as driver couldn't release brakes.

So in a nutshell I'd say it's highly unlikely a bicycle could derail a train, although it might disable the train and make it unable to move by itself.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I have not heard of it happening.
What I will say is that in the 90's I was on a 153 on the Newquay branch and we ran over 2 cow's. Unit remainded on the tracks, 1 cow dead, other had to have a vet called to be put out of it's misery. Unit unable to move as driver couldn't release brakes.

So in a nutshell I'd say it's highly unlikely a bicycle could derail a train, although it might disable the train and make it unable to move by itself.

Worth saying at this point that cows can and have derailed trains. Polmont being a particularly spectacular event.

 

[Steve Harris]

Worth saying at this point that cows can and have derailed trains. Polmont being a particularly spectacular event.

Indeed they have, and yes it was.

Luckily for me a 153 doesn't go ask quick as a 47 in push mode.

I also tend to stay away from Cow's in fields, as they have been known to trample/crush people. No surprise they can be deadly when a typical adult Cow can weigh 1 Ton, (I don't think even an old steel framed bike can match that).

I think probability of derailment depends on a number of factors (speed, weight of train, weight/mass of object being hit, angle it gets hit at etc).

 

[najaB]

Which is a bad idea, because if someone was trapped on the inside they wouldn't be able to get out

The simple solution to that was posted above - a 'crash bar' that's only accessible from the inside and allows the gate to be opened.

Also I thought this was a foot crossing, so I don't see what link this has to driving?

This event was, but the discussion had moved on to crossing abuse generally.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I mean the barriers on the side going in to the crossing could be stronger, not the leaving side. The time between barriers closing and train arriving could be longer. Not sure what could be done about stupid impatient drivers, cyclists, walkers.

 

[zwk500]

I mean the barriers on the side going in to the crossing could be stronger, not the leaving side. The time between barriers closing and train arriving could be longer. Not sure what could be done about stupid impatient drivers, cyclists, walkers.

There's only one thing that can be done about impatient crossing users, regrettably: close the crossing. Drivers could be perhaps dissuaded by imposing a much heavier fine and more penalty points (up to £10,000 + 10 points?), but walkers and cyclists are unlikely to worry about punishment as they will think there's such a low chance of being caught it's not even a risk.

Regarding barrier strength, I'd make all barriers equally strong and offset them far away to have a protected waiting area for people who do get themselves stranded.