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222 4-car sets to become 5-car by May 22

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Prudhoe

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It is reported that 2 7-car sets are to be reduced to five car and the resulting 4 coaches will be inserted in 4-car sets to make them 5-car.
It will be interesting to see if one of the coaches will be repainted into the unique livery of 222104 or whether that set will be repainted into the standard EMT colours.
 
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dereksingh291

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It is reported that 2 7-car sets are to be reduced to five car and the resulting 4 coaches will be inserted in 4-car sets to make them 5-car.
It will be interesting to see if one of the coaches will be repainted into the unique livery of 222104 or whether that set will be repainted into the standard EMT colours.
Is that true?
 

dereksingh291

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When will the 4 4 car 222s become 5 cars? I’m also aware that EMR will be replacing the 222s but when will they be replaced and what train company will they be transferred to?
 

MML

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A number of the sets require re-glazing.
Some windows are shot with condensation and discolouration within the panel, so you can't even see out the window.
I'm surprised that type of repair hasn't been scheduled as part of the regular maintenance rather than waiting for major overhaul by the next owner.
It's obviously specialist glass but it should be possible to replace damaged windows fairly quickly.
 

ainsworth74

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Wonder if they're going to reseat some of the vehicles to standard class. I seem to recall that the 7-cars are somewhat over provisioned at the moment due to their history of originally being 9-car sets. So reducing a pair of them to 5-car would potentially make that worse!
 

JonathanH

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There does seem to be some logic in this given that the future fleet is all 5-car and a 4-car on its own is somewhat limited in capacity.

Presumably leaves 3 from 4 7-cars to operate carefully selected diagrams.

Wonder if they're going to reseat some of the vehicles to standard class. I seem to recall that the 7-cars are somewhat over provisioned at the moment due to their history of originally being 9-car sets. So reducing a pair of them to 5-car would potentially make that worse!
When 222007 was reduced to five car it had its vehicles standardised to match the other five-car units so you would expect the new pair to follow. I think that 222101-222104 have sightly less first class than the 5-car units so some seat swapping might happen.
 

sonic2009

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If this is true, could this possibly be a change ahead of a possible transfer to XC?
 

Helvellyn

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Wonder if they're going to reseat some of the vehicles to standard class. I seem to recall that the 7-cars are somewhat over provisioned at the moment due to their history of originally being 9-car sets. So reducing a pair of them to 5-car would potentially make that worse!
I suspect they would because the aim of strengthening the 4-cars is surely to give them two unit formations for diagram purposes instead of three, including two seating capacities/layouts to also simplify reservations.

It also depends if they look to reduce First Class provision in the remaining four seven car units. This could be done by removing a Motor First (MF) and a Motor Standard (MS) from 222001-222006, and reconfiguring the remaining MF as a Motor Composite (MC).

They could then convert two of the removed MFs to MSs, and have four MFs and eights MSs to strengthen 222101-222104 to seven cars.

This would simplify things as the 23 222/0s would all be 5-cars and the four 222/1s 7-cars.

Just making the 222/1s 5-car still needs two MFs converted to MSs before being added, plus the existing four MCs First Class provision doubled, as well as two MFs converted to MCs in the two new 5-car 222/0s.

In either of my suggestions you have to reconfigure eight coaches.
 

JonathanH

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If this is true, could this possibly be a change ahead of a possible transfer to XC?
No, just the logical solution to an oddball set of four units which are difficult for EMR to diagram. XC have 38 4-car units.
 

swt_passenger

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Only logical moves imo are XC?
That’s true, and it has been discussed many times, but being logical isn’t much of a guarantee. The west coast 221s are just as logical, and operationally a more identical train.
 

LowLevel

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I believe, and don't quote me on this because I may be talking nonsense, that the plan is to reduce first class provision at the same time, taking the 5 car 222s into line with the 4 car 222s in terms of the layout of the MCL coach.

The remaining longer 222s also lose some first accommodation, at least one coach worth I think, in favour of standard.
 

greatvoyager

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I believe, and don't quote me on this because I may be talking nonsense, that the plan is to reduce first class provision at the same time, taking the 5 car 222s into line with the 4 car 222s in terms of the layout of the MCL coach.

The remaining longer 222s also lose some first accommodation, at least one coach worth I think, in favour of standard.
Definitely would make sense to increase standard class provision.
 

DannyMich2018

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Definitely would make sense to increase standard class provision.
Sure would do. Having 3 first class coaches out of 7 is a waste. At weekends first can be fairly quiet with standard full. 50 first class seats also is too much in a 5 car 222 so reducing it makes sense.
 

Roast Veg

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Good riddance. Getting a single 4 car unit was awful in the morning peak compared to a 5, despite their similarity, because of the lost standing room.
 

greatvoyager

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Sure would do. Having 3 first class coaches out of 7 is a waste. At weekends first can be fairly quiet with standard full. 50 first class seats also is too much in a 5 car 222 so reducing it makes sense.
Absolutely, hopefully if it goes ahead, changes like that will be addressed.
 

Kite159

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A good idea to create a more uniform fleet of mostly 5 coach units with less first class than they currently have.

Although I wonder what sort of seats will be fitted to the new standard class areas.
 

liamf656

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It was mentioned briefly at the end of September in another thread:
It could be to do with the confirmed re-structuring of the meridians mentioned in the latest Modern Railway magazine. Apparently the sets are to go from a fleet of 4x4 car, 17x5 car and 6x7 car to 23x5 car and 4x7 car.

I’ve also been told that the reasoning behind this move is to allow for more permissive working at St Pancras which is a struggle with the current 7 car units, and to prepare for the restructure in diagramming for the introduction of the Class 810s, as that’ll include only 5/10 car workings.

When I was told the following it was still in the planning stage but I’ve been told that the interiors are having slight alterations so that they all match one another. Currently the composite coach has a different standard:first ratio in the 4 coach 222/1s compared to the 5 coach 222/0s (the /0s have more first class in this coach compared to the /1s), I believe they are being altered so that they are all identical to the 222/1s meaning there will be more standard class in most units. In the four units that will remain 7 car, one first coach should become standard to give 5 coaches worth of standard class
 

Meerkat

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If they are going to muck about with the seating wouldnt it be best to get as close to the 810 provision as possible, to make them as interchangeable as possible during the transition - ie a late substitution has less effect on reservations etc?
 

supervc-10

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I think reservations are never going to be compatible across the 810s- but having a similar ratio would definitely make sense!
 
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