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323s vs 331s on Northern

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scrapy

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323s unlikely to go on Preston to Vic in the short term as crews that work that route generally don't sign them, and there is no pressing reason for more crews to sign them, and plenty of other training that needs doing first.

Once the extra units arrive from WMR it's likely more depots will sign them, although they are rumoured to be going on Wigan to Liverpool stoppers, and replacing the 319 diagrams on the Liverpool to Crewes first.

Single 323s would fit in the bays at Preston.
 
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Jamesrob637

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Northern intend to operate some booked double 323s but on which routes I'm unsure.
 

Halish Railway

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Which routes can take double 323s or 331s and which routes need double 323s or 331s?
Based off of experience, I would say that once numbers recover and the service resumes to being half-hourly, the Wigan to Liverpool all stations service should be 6 coaches long, along with the Liverpool to Crewe service, although 6 coaches is only needed between Liverpool and Manchester Piccadilly.

Edit: Although 6 coaches is needed on these routes, it isn’t possible without (A)SDO and extended platforms.
 

Purple Orange

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Based off of experience, I would say that once numbers recover and the service resumes to being half-hourly, the Wigan to Liverpool all stations service should be 6 coaches long, along with the Liverpool to Crewe service, although 6 coaches is only needed between Liverpool and Manchester Piccadilly.

Edit: Although 6 coaches is needed on these routes, it isn’t possible without (A)SDO and extended platforms.
Id certainly argue that 6-car trains should be prevalent on the heavily populated south Manchester routes.
 

CJ

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Id certainly argue that 6-car trains should be prevalent on the heavily populated south Manchester routes.

Indeed.

Pre-Covid, the Liverpool - Crewe service (on the Styal Line at least), 3 car 323s were relatively busy/packed, especially during peak hours.

Sadly, the platforms on this line were shortened (excluding Heald Green) when they were remodelled/reconstructed around 2006-2008, so not sure if 6-car 323s would fit without platform lengthening or ASDO (unless they will be retrofitted on?)
 

scrapy

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There are no plans to retrofit ASDO onto 323s, I don't even think it's feasible to do it, SDO would be a lot cheaper but even then unlikely. As it stands there are no routes 323s can work in multiple without infrastructure enhancements or changes to stopping patterns. I believe Leyland is to be relengthened to 6 car on the slows, but I'm not aware of any other platform lengthening that will help.
 
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Jamesrob637

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Which routes can take double 323s or 331s and which routes need double 323s or 331s?

They'd be handy on Hazel Grove to Blackpool North as their seating capacity exceeds that of 331s and the 3+2 can be ideal for families.
 

Purple Orange

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They'd be handy on Hazel Grove to Blackpool North as their seating capacity exceeds that of 331s and the 3+2 can be ideal for families.

It seems to me that 323s should be used on that route, rather than 331s and then have the 331s used on lines where SDO is needed but the passenger demand exists. I’m not sure why that doesn’t appear to be a proposal that doesn’t see more traction on this forum. Perhaps I’m not seeing something.
 

roversfan2001

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I believe Leyland is to be relengthened to 6 car on the slows, but I'm not aware of any other platform lengthening that will help.
It's about time! There's plenty of platform to the south of the fences that has been abandoned for a while, on both sides and the island.
 

Nymanic

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It seems to me that 323s should be used on that route, rather than 331s and then have the 331s used on lines where SDO is needed but the passenger demand exists. I’m not sure why that doesn’t appear to be a proposal that doesn’t see more traction on this forum. Perhaps I’m not seeing something.
Unfortunately SDO is needed on that route too, if you're doubling up. Woodsmoor and Davenport (at the very least) require it.

There seems to be a good case for retrofitting some form of SDO on 323s. But since there's no evidence that the option is even being considered, I'm not optimistic it'll happen. Perhaps it isn't deemed economical (or technically possible)?
 

_toommm_

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As far as I know, most of the platforms on the route can fit four coaches. The 323s all have guards’ panels in the middle coach (PTSO). Could they not have an SDO where they can release ‘doors forward’ or ‘doors backward’ of the guards’ panel?
 

Watershed

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As far as I know, most of the platforms on the route can fit four coaches. The 323s all have guards’ panels in the middle coach (PTSO). Could they not have an SDO where they can release ‘doors forward’ or ‘doors backward’ of the guards’ panel?
Anything is possible. The question is whether it would be worth the time and money!

The 769s are an apt example of "surely it can't be that hard" turning out to be wrong (unsurprisingly).
 

Wtloild

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They'd be handy on Hazel Grove to Blackpool North as their seating capacity exceeds that of 331s and the 3+2 can be ideal for families.
What are 323s like for buggies/prams?
There used to be loads of those on weekend services to Blackpool, which were a nightmare when it was served by 156s.
331s a big improvement in that respect (& every other respect too).
 

py_megapixel

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What are 323s like for buggies/prams?
The doorways are plenty wide enough for them, but there is no dedicated space for them onboard so they usually end up filling the two wheelchair areas. I could imagine this causing conflict if a wheelchair user wanted to board and there were already several parents with buggies.
 

js1000

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Indeed.

Pre-Covid, the Liverpool - Crewe service (on the Styal Line at least), 3 car 323s were relatively busy/packed, especially during peak hours.

Sadly, the platforms on this line were shortened (excluding Heald Green) when they were remodelled/reconstructed around 2006-2008, so not sure if 6-car 323s would fit without platform lengthening or ASDO (unless they will be retrofitted on?)
Correct. The down platforms at Mauldeth Road, Burnage and Gatley cannot are not long enough for doubled up 323 - although could be possible if they were fitted with with ASDO as the 6 coach 195/331s from Liverpool/Blackpool North currently do.

On a couple of days a few weeks ago the 1733 from Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe operated as a 6 coach 323 - this was to seemingly to remove an unnecessary path between Liverpool/Manchester and shuffle the rear unit (collected at Allerton when leaving from Liverpool) back into position at Manchester Airport. The driver in the rear unit looked sad given the rear unit was completely out of use for passengers due to platform constraints.

Will the 323s ever be fitted with SDO or ASDO? There is a compelling case given they will probably be in operation for at least another 25 years I reckon even if it is a technical challenge. They have aged exceptionally well and given the falls in passenger numbers I suspect we'll see many units introduced in the 90s being kept in service as long as possible just as the Pacers/Sprinters have been since privatisation/when we previously had low passenger numbers on the railway.

There are no plans to retrofit ASDO onto 323s, I don't even think it's feasible to do it, SDO would be a lot cheaper but even then unlikely. As it stands there are no routes 323s can work in multiple without infrastructure enhancements or changes to stopping patterns. I believe Leyland is to be relengthened to 6 car on the slows, but I'm not aware of any other platform lengthening that will help.
Not completely true. If I remember correctly the train shuttle between Manchester Piccadilly and the Old Trafford football ground did frequently consist of 6 coaches.
 
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Kite159

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I can recall before Covid the last Manchester - Macclesfield stopper on a Saturday night was formed of a pair of 323s to cater for the crowds. Unless I'm mixing it up with something else
 

Geeves

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The 319s have been replaced by 6 car 331s on the 2 hourly stopping service from Vic to Preston. The majority of the Preston and Blackpool work is all 331s x2
 

_toommm_

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The 319s have been replaced by 6 car 331s on the 2 hourly stopping service from Vic to Preston. The majority of the Preston and Blackpool work is all 331s x2

That’s good then, last week there was a lot of 3-car workings and one of two 319 circuits on Blackpool to Airport/Hazel Grove.
 

scrapy

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Will the 323s ever be fitted with SDO or ASDO? There is a compelling case given they will probably be in operation for at least another 25 years I reckon even if it is a technical challenge.
I think the money would be better spent lengthening platforms. For Blackpool to Hazel Grove/Airport, Preston to Man Vic and Manchester to Stoke to have all platforms take 6 cars wouldn't actually need that many lengthenings and these should be straightforward. Again the Crewe/Alderley via Stockport would only need a couple of lengthenings.

IMO ASDO/SDO is suitable for the odd station where platform lengthening isn't feesable or a longer train is needed for a special event, but is totally ridiculous to be the norm for a full route.

It should be noted that the Crewe to Liverpool and Southport to Alderley Edge services will likely be broken up in the coming years. Doubled up 323s would likely take over from the double 331s with the 3 car 331s likely to go to Yorkshire and 4 cars returning to the west. The 4 cars would be ideal for the Manchester to Glossop/Hadfield route and routes out of Liverpool. There are no plans to double up the 4 cars and have 8 car running.
 

Vespa

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In my area 319 alternates with 331 on the same line, I preferred the 331 as its more comfortable and has a plug to charge your phone, in fact I consider it "TPE Lite" as in the morning 331 tends to do the express run to Liverpool and the 319 is the stopper, there are exceptions as in the evening 319s have done express runs out of Liverpool which used to be done by 331, this is based on my experience, I wouldn't have minded 319 if they had the same style of seats as 331.

I dont claim to be knowledgeable about diagrams and why 319 is used instead of 331.
 

Jamesrob637

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I think the money would be better spent lengthening platforms. For Blackpool to Hazel Grove/Airport, Preston to Man Vic and Manchester to Stoke to have all platforms take 6 cars wouldn't actually need that many lengthenings and these should be straightforward. Again the Crewe/Alderley via Stockport would only need a couple of lengthenings.

IMO ASDO/SDO is suitable for the odd station where platform lengthening isn't feesable or a longer train is needed for a special event, but is totally ridiculous to be the norm for a full route.

It should be noted that the Crewe to Liverpool and Southport to Alderley Edge services will likely be broken up in the coming years. Doubled up 323s would likely take over from the double 331s with the 3 car 331s likely to go to Yorkshire and 4 cars returning to the west. The 4 cars would be ideal for the Manchester to Glossop/Hadfield route and routes out of Liverpool. There are no plans to double up the 4 cars and have 8 car running.

Pre-COVID there was a booked 7-car Liverpool to Blackpool on a Saturday morning but unsure whether the reverse was true of a Saturday evening.
 
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