377/6

[TrainBoy98]

Just wondered if anyone had any pictures or the new 377/6s or any information about them or any changes/differences to the previous sub-classes?

TIA

 

[swt_passenger]

Just wondered if anyone had any pictures or the new 377/6s or any information about them or any changes/differences to the previous sub-classes?

TIA

See this recent thread, top of page 4:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=76507&page=4

I'd expect few visible differences to other SN 377s, other than the 5th car...

 

[bronzeonion]

http://www.rail.co/2012/12/20/first-southern-3776-nears-completion/

 

[TrainBoy98]

ok thanks

 

[Skimble19]

See this recent thread, top of page 4:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=76507&page=4

I'd expect few visible differences to other SN 377s, other than the 5th car...

Windows and vents above them are the main external difference (aside from that 5th car!), whilst internally from the limited photos so far seems to be the seats at the very least being different.

 

[387star]

yeah seats all have arm rests for a start

 

[D365]

377/6 is pretty much 379-bodied with 377 functionality (dual-voltage with same software as existing 377s for compatibility) and 5 cars per set, a compromise between the two Electrostars.

 

[Class377/5]

377/6 is pretty much 379-bodied with 377 functionality (dual-voltage with same software as existing 377s for compatibility) and 5 cars per set, a compromise between the two Electrostars.

Only units 377627-634 are dual voltage however. It's much more an 377.5 (shame the Thameslink units weren't /2's).

 

[Minstral25]

Only units 377627-634 are dual voltage however. It's much more an 377.5 (shame the Thameslink units weren't /2's).

So at a rough guess that would mean 8 dual voltage units to replace the 377/2's on the Milton Keynes services and thus the 377/2's can be lent to Thameslink/FCC, presumably along with the other 4 not currently lent??????

 

[Class377/5]

So at a rough guess that would mean 8 dual voltage units to replace the 377/2's on the Milton Keynes services and thus the 377/2's can be lent to Thameslink/FCC, presumably along with the other 4 not currently lent??????

Not quite. Add in the loss of he 456s and you get less 377/2 released from Southern for Thameslink.

However it's more complex with the new Thameslink/Southern joint services in December 2014.

 

[Minstral25]

Not quite. Add in the loss of he 456s and you get less 377/2 released from Southern for Thameslink.

However it's more complex with the new Thameslink/Southern joint services in December 2014.

Nothing is going to be easy on the railways especially as we are talking replacement of 2 car units with 4 car units and now 5 car units - complicated.

I thought the first half of the 377/6 (single voltage ones) essentially to replace the lack of return of the 377/5's which in turn were going to replace the 456's going to SWT and extra trains? So the extra dual voltage units would cover the Milton Keynes service just at the time the WLL platforms are extended to 5 cars.

I suspect that Thameslink/FCC will need extra units during the London Bridge blockade caused by extended journey times as well so the release of the remaining 377/2's to them would assist greatly, especially as I can't see 700's arriving and being properly tested on the lines to 2016 currently

Joined up thinking at the DfT perhaps??


Just as a thought - How was Southern going to create enough 10 car units with a fleet of nearly all 4 car units - meaning only 14 sets of six cars could be made up from the few 3 car units?

 

[hwl]

Just as a thought - How was Southern going to create enough 10 car units with a fleet of nearly all 4 car units - meaning only 14 sets of six cars could be made up from the few 3 car units?

That thought had occurred to me as well, I had assumed that they would lengthen some of the existing 377s like TfL did with the 3 car LO 378s (or the proposals to extend some to 5 car).

As some (Southern) stations can't be lengthened cheaply, SDO would always have been needed and retro fitting SDO to all the 455s and 456s (assuming the 456s didn't go to SWT) would have been expensive so I always assumed something using the 377s.

Another less efficient solution could have been 3x 4car 377s with the 11th and 12th cars only used at 2 or 3 stations or locked out of use for that service. (or just extend some more platforms to 12 car at the time of extension to 10 car if it didn't add much cost.)

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the first half of the 377/6 (single voltage ones) essentially to replace the lack of return of the 377/5's which in turn were going to replace the 456's going to SWT and extra trains? So the extra dual voltage units would cover the Milton Keynes service just at the time the WLL platforms are extended to 5 cars.

The fly in the ointment here seems to be that the published proposal is for SN to run 8 car trains on the Milton Keynes service, not 5 car. Therefore the WLL '5 car upgrade' doesn't really apply to Imperial Wharf and Shepherds Bush, which NR already planned to extend to 8 car for SN's purposes. Indeed isn't the NR work to upgrade the WLL 'through stations' to 8 car further through the planning stages than TfL's 5 car scheme?

 

[Minstral25]

The fly in the ointment here seems to be that the published proposal is for SN to run 8 car trains on the Milton Keynes service, not 5 car. Therefore the WLL '5 car upgrade' doesn't really apply to Imperial Wharf and Shepherds Bush, which NR already planned to extend to 8 car for SN's purposes. Indeed isn't the NR work to upgrade the WLL 'through stations' to 8 car further through the planning stages than TfL's 5 car scheme?

I think that will go ahead eventually and then the 5 car units can rejoin the other 5 car sets to extend more South London services to 10 car. This move will be short term.

As I am now a regular on the WLL and its obvious the need for extra carriages is desperate - the 378's despite their stripped out interiors are not coping with rush hour volumes. Daily I'm being left on the station at Clapham Junction and thus regularly late for work.

There will not be enough 8 car units available to run the Milton Keynes service until the 377/5's come back from Thameslink/FCC which is 2017/8 as the first released ex-Thameslink units will be 319's for the GWML and up North

 

[Class377/5]

Nothing is going to be easy on the railways especially as we are talking replacement of 2 car units with 4 car units and now 5 car units - complicated.

I thought the first half of the 377/6 (single voltage ones) essentially to replace the lack of return of the 377/5's which in turn were going to replace the 456's going to SWT and extra trains? So the extra dual voltage units would cover the Milton Keynes service just at the time the WLL platforms are extended to 5 cars.

I suspect that Thameslink/FCC will need extra units during the London Bridge blockade caused by extended journey times as well so the release of the remaining 377/2's to them would assist greatly, especially as I can't see 700's arriving and being properly tested on the lines to 2016 currently

Joined up thinking at the DfT perhaps??

Just as a thought - How was Southern going to create enough 10 car units with a fleet of nearly all 4 car units - meaning only 14 sets of six cars could be made up from the few 3 car units?

Not quite.

377/5 + 377/2 26x 4 cars = 104 carriages
377/6 initil order 26x 5 cars = 130 carriages
377/6 additional DV 8x 5 cars = 40 carriages

That means by getting the 377/6 order rather than the 377/5, Southern gains an extra 66 carriages.

There are 24x 2 car 456 = 48 carriages meaning Southern is still 18 carriages up on Dec 2013 franchise plans.

Don't forget during the London Bridge blockages that Thameslink 4tph is cut to 2tph with the other 2tph never going south of Three Bridges. That will mean not so much rolling stock is required.

700 introduction should be confirmed next year but a lot is riding on those new interim units Sputhern has started looking for.

Original idea for ten cars was one 4 cars and two 3 cars mixed together.

That thought had occurred to me as well, I had assumed that they would lengthen some of the existing 377s like TfL did with the 3 car LO 378s (or the proposals to extend some to 5 car).

As some (Southern) stations can't be lengthened cheaply, SDO would always have been needed and retro fitting SDO to all the 455s and 456s (assuming the 456s didn't go to SWT) would have been expensive so I always assumed something using the 377s.

Another less efficient solution could have been 3x 4car 377s with the 11th and 12th cars only used at 2 or 3 stations or locked out of use for that service. (or just extend some more platforms to 12 car at the time of extension to 10 car if it didn't add much cost.)

377/3 three car units are still to be used but not idea especially in 12 car formations with an extra two cabs.

The fly in the ointment here seems to be that the published proposal is for SN to run 8 car trains on the Milton Keynes service, not 5 car. Therefore the WLL '5 car upgrade' doesn't really apply to Imperial Wharf and Shepherds Bush, which NR already planned to extend to 8 car for SN's purposes. Indeed isn't the NR work to upgrade the WLL 'through stations' to 8 car further through the planning stages than TfL's 5 car scheme?

Yes but is there the money yet? I suspect some savings will be achieved by linking 8 car-ing the WLL with the five car LO project.

I think that will go ahead eventually and then the 5 car units can rejoin the other 5 car sets to extend more South London services to 10 car. This move will be short term.

As I am now a regular on the WLL and its obvious the need for extra carriages is desperate - the 378's despite their stripped out interiors are not coping with rush hour volumes. Daily I'm being left on the station at Clapham Junction and thus regularly late for work.

There will not be enough 8 car units available to run the Milton Keynes service until the 377/5's come back from Thameslink/FCC which is 2017/8 as the first released ex-Thameslink units will be 319's for the GWML and up North

December 2012 diagrams on Yahoo group should only 6 377/2 diagrams are dual voltage. So if they double length and frequency they'll need something like 24 units plus say two spare. They've currently got 13, or half that. With the additional 8 coming they might be able to make the WLL 5 cars in Decemember 2014. Would mean a 25% increase in capacity, not a small figure for not extra outlay.

However I've not heard that's going to happen but seems logical.

 

[D365]

Remember, there is the 116+140 order... Could it help?

 

[Class377/5]

Remember, there is the 116+140 order... Could it help?

That order is just to release 319s from Thameslink to allow them to go to Northern and Great Western.

 

[D365]

That order is just to release 319s from Thameslink to allow them to go to Northern and Great Western.

Is Thameslink confirmed to be the initial destination for the 116+140? Will almost certainly end up being 377/7s then... Although the order at its greatest will only spawn 64 4-car units, meaning 22 319s would remain on a like-for-like replacement.

 

[Wath Yard]

What do you mean has it been confirmed? It was confirmed before the procurement was 'officially' sanctioned (although it is obvious the order has always come from the DfT and not Southern). Southern said from the start it was to facilitate the DfT's cascade strategy.

 

[D365]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, but it hasn't been spelt out officially/publicly that the order will be for Thameslink/319 cascade. If true, I assume the order's being done under Southern as they are sub-leasing the 377s to FCC/Thameslink, thus implying 377/7s will appear.

 

[Wath Yard]

That's the only reason I can think of for using Southern to order them.

 

[Class377/5]

Southern said this

http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...d-launches-competition-for-116-new-carriages/

Southern signs new train order and launches competition for 116 new carriages
Date: 21 Dec 2012

Southern today signed the order for 40 more carriages, bringing the total number of new carriages ordered in the last year by Southern to 170.

The additional carriages will provide increased capacity on the Southern network from December 2014 and will help enable the cascade of rolling stock envisaged as part of the Thameslink Programme and so help to deliver the DfT’s High Level Output Specification Programme.

The 40 carriages are a run on to the 130 carriage order won by Bombardier at the end of last year. It was also announced today that the total order of 170 carriages has now been refinanced and we will lease them from new owners, Porterbrook.

Southern has also today launched a further procurement competition for 116 electric vehicles which will further enable the Department’s electrification programme which relies on the cascade of rolling stock released by the Thameslink Programme.

This open competition will include an option for a further 140 vehicles at a later stage should they be required.

Chris Burchell, Managing Director of Southern, said: “We are delighted to be able to order these additional vehicles which will provide much needed capacity on our network. We are also pleased that we are in a position to assist the Department for Transport in facilitating the cascade of electric vehicles as featured in the High Level Output Statement.”

DfT said

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/department-for-transports-boost-to-train-builders

Department for Transport's boost to train builders

Published:21 December 2012Policyxpanding and improving the rail networkMinister:The Rt Hon Patrick McLoughlin MP

New train carriages procured by Southern Railway.

Train builders have received a year-end boost as the government announces its backing for two new train orders, Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin announced today.

As a result of government support, Southern Railway has now procured 40 new carriages from Bombardier based in Derby.

In addition to the 40 carriages, the government is also supporting Southern’s tendering process for 116 new electric carriages with the option for a further 140.

Patrick McLoughlin said:

Our support for Southern will not only boost capacity but help secure British jobs. The deal for the 40 new carriages, helped along by my department, demonstrates the government’s ongoing commitment to invest in Britain’s railways.

My officials are working with Southern to accelerate their procurement process for up to 256 carriages because our ambitious electrification plans requires additional rolling stock on the network.

In December 2011 Southern Railway, with government support, announced its plans to buy 130 carriages from Bombardier to run on services in south London, Surrey, Sussex and Kent. Southern expects these will be in service by December 2013. As part of this deal Southern had the option to buy the additional 40 carriages at a later stage.

In July the government announced the biggest programme of rail modernisation since the Victorian era. At the heart of the scheme was the electrification of the Midland Main Line, from London to Sheffield, with additional spurs linking it to the Great Western Main Line and the Port of Southampton.

If Southern progresses with the procurement, these 116 new vehicles, and potentially 140 more, could initially be used on the Thameslink routes. Once the expected new Thameslink trains are operational these carriages will be moved to the newly electrified routes, which could include the Midland Main Line to Corby and North Transpennine routes.

While the order is spit with

Initial batch 29x 4 cars
Second batch 35x 4 cars.

This means 64 units but as they are due for introduction from 2014 onwards with the 700 coming after. With other cascade plans using the 377/6's means that all the 319s will be gone by mid 2016.

But it's still early days with Southern only have started the process to get tenders for these units. And while the DfT never actually say they are just for Thameslink, they suggest it and having dual voltage when more AC units are needed it only makes sense to send them to Thameslink.

 

[anthony263]

I am still of the opinion that a number of these electrostars could end up working the local GW services around the Thames Valley depending on their length the 3 carriage class 377's that are operated by Southern would be ideal for the Thames Valley branches

 

[D6975]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, but it hasn't been spelt out officially/publicly that the order will be for Thameslink/319 cascade. If true, I assume the order's being done under Southern as they are sub-leasing the 377s to FCC/Thameslink, thus implying 377/7s will appear.

It's just possible that the dual voltage 377/6s might appear as 377/7s rather than 627-634 don't you think? It would make sense for the dual voltage ones to be easily distinguishable.

ps - anyone know the side nos for these carriages?

pps - they could even use 377 250 up or 299 down, so the dual voltage ones are all in the same series.

 

[455driver]

they could even use 377 250 up or 299 down, so the dual voltage ones are all in the same series.

377/5s?

 

[TEW]

ps - anyone know the side nos for these carriages?

Courtesy of Sparkyscrum on wnxx.

DMSO (A) - 70101-70126
MSO - 70201-70226
TSO - 70301-70326
MSO - 70401-70426
DMSO (B) - 70501-70526

Rumours also that the additional five units will either be 377/7s or 377/5s.

 

[JamesRowden]

I am still of the opinion that a number of these electrostars could end up working the local GW services around the Thames Valley depending on their length the 3 carriage class 377's that are operated by Southern would be ideal for the Thames Valley branches

Because the new 377s will be 110 mph they should be better than the 319s for the Thames Valley services that run along the fast lines between Paddington and Reading and then have a local stopping pattern to Newbury (and beyond if it gets electrified) and Oxford.

 

[D365]

377/5s?

377/2s? The '377/6' batch doesn't need to be split, don't make it any more convoluted!

 

[Class377/5]

Courtesy of Sparkyscrum on wnxx.

DMSO (A) - 70101-70126
MSO - 70201-70226
TSO - 70301-70326
MSO - 70401-70426
DMSO (B) - 70501-70526

Rumours also that the additional five units will either be 377/7s or 377/5s.

It's just possible that the dual voltage 377/6s might appear as 377/7s rather than 627-634 don't you think? It would make sense for the dual voltage ones to be easily distinguishable.

ps - anyone know the side nos for these carriages?

pps - they could even use 377 250 up or 299 down, so the dual voltage ones are all in the same series.

The new units won't be 377/5 as they are techincally 379 units with the improved body and internals.

Note that Alex Hynes, MD of Govia has publicly stated the additional 8 five car units are 377/6 despite being dual voltage. He did have to check on the answer before tweeting it.

377/7 or even 379/2 are more likely for the next Southern order however depending on the tender Siemens may bid as well as other makers so Bombardier stock isn't for sure yet.

I am still of the opinion that a number of these electrostars could end up working the local GW services around the Thames Valley depending on their length the 3 carriage class 377's that are operated by Southern would be ideal for the Thames Valley branches

But who is going to pay for the conversion for them (they are DC units) plus buy new stock for Southern? Best all round to just buy GW new units.

377/2s? The '377/6' batch doesn't need to be split, don't make it any more convoluted!

Have to agree. Subclass for 8 units. Is it worth it?

 

[Manchester77]

With a possible extra 150 carriages. Plus the 377/6s are a bit different as they're effectively a 379 with 377 computing ect