3rd Rail 100 mph stretches

[Railwaysceptic]

Where are the curves that are limiting the maximum speed and could some enhanced cant on the fasts-only make it possible?

The three Ws. Walton-On-Thames, Weybridge and Woking. Not being a railwayman, I'm not qualified to judge what altering the cant might achieve.

I don't think it has a 'nasty curve'. It may not be quite as straight as the up fast, but it has a 90 mph limit and I've never noticed any discomfort passing through at that speed. Admittedly, that doesn't happen very often, as Woking is so busy that non-stoppers are frequently checked, but that's probably for another topic!

I must admit I haven't been to Woking for decades so things might have changed. In my day the curve through the station brought the speed down to about 60 mph. I'm old enough to remember steam locomotives going through at moderate speeds.

 

[zwk500]

The three Ws. Walton-On-Thames, Weybridge and Woking. Not being a railwayman, I'm not qualified to judge what altering the cant might achieve.

At Weybridge and Woking, the presence of the junctions is likely to restrict the level of cant possible, and you wouldn't want to do too much differently other than grade-separation even if you remodelled the area. Crossovers between fast and slow lines would be required even with a flyover, and pointwork has to be without cant (or, very expensively, with the diverging route continuing at the same angle of attack until it can transition to flat).

 

[75A]

Given it's over 50 miles, then to do it in that time the journey must have averaged 80mph start to stop. So that's impressive.

47 miles (75Km)

 

[AM9]

The three Ws. Walton-On-Thames, Weybridge and Woking. Not being a railwayman, I'm not qualified to judge what altering the cant might achieve.

The actual bend at Walton is quite shallow and if the down slow was moved to follow the up fast line it would probably be do-able.
The bend at Weybridge is east of the station and apart from the up slow to fast crossover, the there would be a clear run.
At Woking, the down slow to fast crossover is actually on the curve but I suspect that traffic at the junction would be a bigger obstacle at least until the oft-quoted flying junction is put in.

OT but there used to be 6 'W's in a row: Walton on Thames, Weybridge, West Weybridge (now Byfleet & New Haw), West Byfleet, Woking, and if on the Portsmouth Direct, Worplesdon.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I could be wrong but wasn't the section west of Woking 100mph during NSE days while the 50s were still on WoE workings but the speed was allowed to drop down to 90 on introduction of 159s both on account of their lower speeds and to increase capacity? At that time 442s were the only trains capable of 100mph...

 

[Sean Emmett]

The three Ws. Walton-On-Thames, Weybridge and Woking. Not being a railwayman, I'm not qualified to judge what altering the cant might achieve.


I must admit I haven't been to Woking for decades so things might have changed. In my day the curve through the station brought the speed down to about 60 mph. I'm old enough to remember steam locomotives going through at moderate speeds.

Have certainly been through Woking at a full 90 on the down, as well as the up.

And I've been through there at rather more than 60 with steam...

Edit: IIRC the 100 mph sections were only for 442s, not the class 50s.

 

[cambsy]

Slightly off main topic, at the end of steam, around 1966-1967, between Basingstoke and Woking, there are logs of runs, where Bullied Pacific’s were worked up to 105-110mph, just prior to electrification, I think if memory correct it was a 3 0r 4 coach parcel train from Weymouth-Waterloo, late at night, which had the best runs, much have been quite a ride at those speeds, and when the electric units came in, they were regularly worked up to around 100mph even though line speed was 90mph i think.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Which were the first "heritage" Southern 3rd rail emus to be allowed at 90mph, then 100mph?

The Greyhound Cigs?

 

[D6130]

I must admit I haven't been to Woking for decades so things might have changed. In my day the curve through the station brought the speed down to about 60 mph. I'm old enough to remember steam locomotives going through at moderate speeds.

When I worked at Woking in the mid-'seventies there was no reduction in the 90 mph permitted speed through the station on the Down Fast, although the somewhat sharper curve through Basingstoke on the same line was - and I believe still is - restricted to 65.

 

[Colin1501]

The Greyhound Cigs?

I don't think these were ever officially cleared for 100 mph running, although they were certainly capable of it, and I have timed them at it between Woking and Winchester.

 

[AlbertBeale]

47 miles (75Km)

Aha - why did I think that route was 50 miles? Is Victoria-Brighton a bit longer then?

Anyway - that must still mean the average start to stop speed was 76/77 mph or so?

 

[Colin1501]

Basingstoke has had a TSR over the diamond on the up fast for as long as I’ve worked on the railway. It keeps bobbing between 30mph and 50mph.

on the SWML if you wanted to speed up journey times rather than trying to get up to the magic 100mph marker you’d be better off finding a way for all Desiro stock to draw 100% power, rather than the 59% that a 450 can pull and 85%ish a 444 can pull. That’s without any additional power reduction modes being implemented.

I commuted from Winchester to Waterloo from 2006 to 2010, and at that time the peak hour Winchester to Waterloo non-stops used to pass through Basingstoke on the up fast at full line speed. When I returned to the area in 2014, the TSR you mention had been imposed, and is still in place today, so that's at least 7 years and possibly more!

 

[75A]

Aha - why did I think that route was 50 miles? Is Victoria-Brighton a bit longer then?

Anyway - that must still mean the average start to stop speed was 76/77 mph or so?

No, Victoria to Brighton is a mile shorter - 46 (74Km).
It wasn't so much the start to stop time that impressed me, it was the run all the way from Hassocks to East Croydon (Quarry) with the needle on the speedo as far to the right as it would go, the calibration stops @ 90mph.
Whilst is was fun, it also meant we had longer to inspect our eyelids before the return runs.
The Brighton papers stopped to unload @ Haywards Heath, whilst the Eastbourne ran non stop to Lewes where another Brighton crew took over.
Although it was called the Eastbourne papers, it always had a Brake Second passenger coach nearest the loco, at Eastbourne the loco would run round and take the end van on to unload @ Hastings before going on to Ore where it ran round and then back to Eastbourne, picking up the rest of the train and going back to Brighton Top Yard.

 

[Sean Emmett]

No, Victoria to Brighton is a mile shorter - 46 (74Km).

Sorry, No. Brighton is further from Victoria than from London Bridge.

In summary, Brighton is 50 miles 48 chains (50.60 miles) from London Bridge (buffers to buffers). Windmill Bridge Jn (just North of East Croydon) is 9m 65c from London Bridge, but 10m 00c from Victoria, so an extra 15 chains from Victoria.

But in detail, it's much more complicated than that, and has involved much research by members of the Railway Performance Society over the years! For starters, there isn't a single milepost series the whole way from London Bridge to Brighton, the SER series from Charing Cross taking over between Stoats Nest Jn and Earlswood on the original route via Redhill, before reverting to the London Bridge series. The Quarry line, used by most fast services, is 6 chains longer than via Redhill.

The London Bridge route splits to use two separate viaducts in the Bermonsey area, with the down 'slow' line peeling off to diveunder the new Thameslink viaduct and potentially a tad longer. There is a 5 chain shortfall at Bricklayers Arms, with milepost discrepancies thereafter. The buffers at Victoria platforms 16-19, used by most fast services, are at about 0m 08c.

The current RPS distance chart shows that a 4 car unit leaving P16-19 at Victoria, using the fast lines and the Quarry line, will travel 50.77 miles (decimal) to Brighton. Deduct 4 chains (0.05 miles) for 8 car and 8c (0.10 miles) for 12 car. For London Bridge to Brighton I recon 50.50 miles (decimal) for a 12 car Thameslink service from platforms 4/5 at London Bridge, slightly less from the bay platforms.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Sorry, No. Brighton is further from Victoria than from London Bridge.

In summary, Brighton is 50 miles 48 chains (50.60 miles) from London Bridge (buffers to buffers). Windmill Bridge Jn (just North of East Croydon) is 9m 65c from London Bridge, but 10m 00c from Victoria, so an extra 15 chains from Victoria.

But in detail, it's much more complicated than that, and has involved much research by members of the Railway Performance Society over the years! For starters, there isn't a single milepost series the whole way from London Bridge to Brighton, the SER series from Charing Cross taking over between Stoats Nest Jn and Earlswood on the original route via Redhill, before reverting to the London Bridge series. The Quarry line, used by most fast services, is 6 chains longer than via Redhill.

The London Bridge route splits to use two separate viaducts in the Bermonsey area, with the down 'slow' line peeling off to diveunder the new Thameslink viaduct and potentially a tad longer. There is a 5 chain shortfall at Bricklayers Arms, with milepost discrepancies thereafter. The buffers at Victoria platforms 16-19, used by most fast services, are at about 0m 08c.

The current RPS distance chart shows that a 4 car unit leaving P16-19 at Victoria, using the fast lines and the Quarry line, will travel 50.77 miles (decimal) to Brighton. Deduct 4 chains (0.05 miles) for 8 car and 8c (0.10 miles) for 12 car. For London Bridge to Brighton I recon 50.50 miles (decimal) for a 12 car Thameslink service from platforms 4/5 at London Bridge, slightly less from the bay platforms.

Aha! So my estimate of close to 80mph average start to stop on that record-breaking run was about right after all!