4tph on Portsmouth Direct

[DelW]

Over on the extensive thread on the new SWT franchise, there was some brief discussion over the First/MTR intention to run 4 trains per hour to Portsmouth over the Direct line.

In the days of the pre-Stagecoach shadow franchise (‘95-‘96), there were three Pompeys per off-peak hour leaving Waterloo at twenty minute intervals (xx.00 semi-fast as now, xx.20 stopper, xx.40 fast stopping only at Guildford, Havant and Fratton). Milford and Witley were served only by a Guildford - Haslemere shuttle, which also provided the second train per hour at Godalming and Farncombe.

Two years later in Stagecoach days, the shuttle had been extended to run from/to Waterloo though on a very slow schedule, leaving Waterloo at xx.24, overtaken at Guildford by the xx.40 and arriving at Haslemere just ahead of the xx.00. Down trains took 1h 16m to Haslemere, up trains took a barely believable 1h 23m including a 15min layover in Guildford, making it much quicker to change at Guildford in either direction.

My recollection (which could be wrong) is that when Stagecoach subsequently went to 4tph out of Waterloo at 15 minute intervals, they wanted to run them all to Portsmouth, but they couldn't make that work reliably and so continued to terminate the fourth hourly train at Haslemere (as now). Even if that's right, I'm unsure whether the 4tph to Pompey timetable was actually introduced and proved unreliable, or whether it was announced only as an aspiration and never introduced in reality.

On the main thread, other posters have suggested that it's straightforward to extend the current Haslemere terminators to Portsmouth. So are they right, maybe I’m remembering the previous efforts wrongly, or maybe the infrastructure has been upgraded during the Stagecoach era? Power supplies were improved in around 2004 for the Desiros, which might have been a factor. I would be interested to know if anyone can say how the Direct timetable has changed since the early Stagecoach years, particularly the change from 20 minute intervals to 15 minute interval departures.

 

[DerekC]

If there is a problem with extending the xx.15 Waterloo to Haslemere departures to Portsmouth, it must be down to something south of Havant - platforming at Portsmouth & Southsea perhaps? If so a turnback at Havant or Fratton would be an option. I have a feeling that the alleged difficulty may have been an SWT smokescreen to cover the fact that the off-peak traffic from Liphook, Liss and Rowlands Castle didn't justify a half-hourly service. We are also promised a 5-minute acceleration from Portsmouth. Altogether a pretty modest set of improvements.

 

[Kite159]

An uneducated guess that the time saving may be with one train per hour being fast, i.e. Woking/Guildford/Havant/(Fratton)/Portsmouth & Southsea/Portsmouth Harbour, overtaking a stopper at Haslemere.

The other existing fast service still calling at Haslemere & Petersfield, with the existing xx:15 Haslemere stopper extended to Southampton providing that additional Portsmouth - Southampton service.

 

[MikePJ]

I grew up in Liss and used the train to get to and from school. I vaguely remember a period early after privatisation when Liss got 2tph off-peak, which was much trumpeted by Stagecoach. Unfortunately it turned out that the two trains were ten minutes apart, leaving a 50 minute wait for the next one. Unsurprisingly the service went back to hourly.

 

[infobleep]

I wonder if this will apply before 8.04 in the morning? Currently every train stops at every station and the are slow compared to the exist fast services. If you get the 7.25, you don't get into Portsmouth that much earlier than the 8.04. Not great for commuters who might want a fast service.

There use to be a morning fast service but it got scraped not to long before I started university in Portsmouth in 2005.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[HarleyDavidson]

If there is a problem with extending the xx.15 Waterloo to Haslemere departures to Portsmouth, it must be down to something south of Havant - platforming at Portsmouth & Southsea perhaps? If so a turnback at Havant or Fratton would be an option. I have a feeling that the alleged difficulty may have been an SWT smokescreen to cover the fact that the off-peak traffic from Liphook, Liss and Rowlands Castle didn't justify a half-hourly service. We are also promised a 5-minute acceleration from Portsmouth. Altogether a pretty modest set of improvements.

There's more padding in the Portsmouth line timetable, than big comfy chair. All this nonsense about making journey times shorter by x minutes is quite easy to achieve and that's by slightly retiming one or two trains to give the 1Pxx & 2Pxx services a better run and to remove some of the padding.

An example of this is 1Pxx departing Waterloo @ xx:30 is booked to follow a 2Pxx departing Waterloo @ xx:15, all the way to Haslemere, it's booked to do the journey in 18-20 minutes, if the 2P was held back at Guildford, that journey can be completed in 13 minutes (so there's 7 mins gained), the problem comes when you get to Havant, where you get the joke company called SN intervene.

Their services run so badly, that any 1P or 2P service WILL be held on HT19 Havant junction for anything up to 7 mins, yet if you drive either properly you can do the journey Petersfield to Havant in 13 mins or 16 for a stopper.

And then you get more conflicts at Portcreek where the 2E from Southampton is routed in front of the 2P by just 3 or 4 mins, both call at Hilsea and both terminate at Southsea.

On the up the 1P leaves the harbour at xx:15 or xx:45 and has to follow the SN service to Havant they also get held waiting for the 313 service to go into the Low Level & it also gets fouled by SN to/from Southampton at Portcreek, so a simple switch of SN & SWT at the harbour would give it a better run to Havant, at least 4 mins saved there and with some minor tweaks at Shalford Jn you can take another 2-4 mins off between Haslemere & Guildford and better pathing from Woking would take out another 3 mins.

So you see it's not difficult to speed up Portsmouth line services at all really.

 

[DerekC]

There's more padding in the Portsmouth line timetable, than big comfy chair. All this nonsense about making journey times shorter by x minutes is quite easy to achieve and that's by slightly retiming one or two trains to give the 1Pxx & 2Pxx services a better run and to remove some of the padding .......... So you see it's not difficult to speed up Portsmouth line services at all really.

Thanks for the detailed post which confirms what I had suspected. I have always found it frustrating that when I started using this line regularly in 1998 or so the journey time from Petersfield to Waterloo on the fastest train was around an hour. Since then £Bns have been invested in new trains with much better performance, with power upgrades to match, not to mention some new signalling here and there - and the result is 5-10 minutes slower. I understand all about the tradeoff between capacity, reliability and journey time, but I really do think the balance on this route is wrong - and it doesn't seem that the new franchise is going to do much about it.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Thanks for the detailed post which confirms what I had suspected. I have always found it frustrating that when I started using this line regularly in 1998 or so the journey time from Petersfield to Waterloo on the fastest train was around an hour. Since then £Bns have been invested in new trains with much better performance, with power upgrades to match, not to mention some new signalling here and there - and the result is 5-10 minutes slower. I understand all about the tradeoff between capacity, reliability and journey time, but I really do think the balance on this route is wrong - and it doesn't seem that the new franchise is going to do much about it.

Portsmouth fsst services used to do the trip Waterloo - Harbour in 1hr 27, now 1hr 33 - 1hr 37.

Guildford to Petersfield by A3 is about 35', but its only about 20' on top of that to Portsmouth city centre or harbour by road if you want to get to Gunwharf Quays, so the journey by road is better than the trains, it's even more marked in the afternoon when there's only one fast train and so it makes the car an even better deal.

 

[Ianno87]

There's more padding in the Portsmouth line timetable, than big comfy chair. All this nonsense about making journey times shorter by x minutes is quite easy to achieve and that's by slightly retiming one or two trains to give the 1Pxx & 2Pxx services a better run and to remove some of the padding.

An example of this is 1Pxx departing Waterloo @ xx:30 is booked to follow a 2Pxx departing Waterloo @ xx:15, all the way to Haslemere, it's booked to do the journey in 18-20 minutes, if the 2P was held back at Guildford, that journey can be completed in 13 minutes (so there's 7 mins gained), the problem comes when you get to Havant, where you get the joke company called SN intervene.

Their services run so badly, that any 1P or 2P service WILL be held on HT19 Havant junction for anything up to 7 mins, yet if you drive either properly you can do the journey Petersfield to Havant in 13 mins or 16 for a stopper.

And then you get more conflicts at Portcreek where the 2E from Southampton is routed in front of the 2P by just 3 or 4 mins, both call at Hilsea and both terminate at Southsea.

On the up the 1P leaves the harbour at xx:15 or xx:45 and has to follow the SN service to Havant they also get held waiting for the 313 service to go into the Low Level & it also gets fouled by SN to/from Southampton at Portcreek, so a simple switch of SN & SWT at the harbour would give it a better run to Havant, at least 4 mins saved there and with some minor tweaks at Shalford Jn you can take another 2-4 mins off between Haslemere & Guildford and better pathing from Woking would take out another 3 mins.

So you see it's not difficult to speed up Portsmouth line services at all really.

The "better pathing from Woking" part of your post is the most difficult. Up/Down Pompey services are roughly in parallel with each other across the flat junction - turn up a few minutes earlier and chances are you'll have to wait anyway for both:
-Down services to pass towards Basingstoke, and
-A suitable path on the Up Fast around everything else

Perhaps one for post-Woking grade separation.

Also, you couldn't 'just' run the SN 4 later. It needs to get to Horsham in time to make it's attacment to the back of the 'slow' portion from Bognor, and then meet its path on the BML from Gatwick

So you see, it's quite difficult to speed up Portsmouth line services, really.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

SN don't need to run all those trains across the coastway, they couldn't run a bath tbqh, their timetable is a joke and should be reviewed ASAP, as it fails to deliver day in, day out.

 

[The Ham]

The "better pathing from Woking" part of your post is the most difficult. Up/Down Pompey services are roughly in parallel with each other across the flat junction - turn up a few minutes earlier and chances are you'll have to wait anyway for both:
-Down services to pass towards Basingstoke, and
-A suitable path on the Up Fast around everything else

Perhaps one for post-Woking grade separation.

Also, you couldn't 'just' run the SN 4 later. It needs to get to Horsham in time to make it's attacment to the back of the 'slow' portion from Bognor, and then meet its path on the BML from Gatwick

So you see, it's quite difficult to speed up Portsmouth line services, really.

However, as suggested, if there was a hold at Guildford of the stoppers then it would mean that the fasts could get to Havent quicker, which would then mean that they could get in front of the Southern services rather than getting held for them.

 

[Ianno87]

However, as suggested, if there was a hold at Guildford of the stoppers then it would mean that the fasts could get to Havent quicker, which would then mean that they could get in front of the Southern services rather than getting held for them.

True (possibly) for the Down; my post was referring to the proposal for the Up direction timetable off the Harbour.

 

[infobleep]

True (possibly) for the Down; my post was referring to the proposal for the Up direction timetable off the Harbour.

Running in one direction faster would be better than nothing.

 

[Carlisle]

Portsmouth fsst services used to do the trip Waterloo - Harbour in 1hr 27, now 1hr 33 - 1hr 37.

Guildford to Petersfield by A3 is about 35', but its only about 20' on top of that to Portsmouth city centre or harbour by road if you want to get to Gunwharf Quays, so the journey by road is better than the trains, it's even more marked in the afternoon when there's only one fast train and so it makes the car an even better deal.

A few years ago I believe First tried to gain some of the Portsmouth-London commuter marked by running a regular coach service taking advantage of the new Hindhead tunnel, clearly people still preferred the train as the service didn't last too long

 

[HarleyDavidson]

A few years ago I believe First tried to gain some of the Portsmouth-London commuter marked by running a regular coach service taking advantage of the new Hindhead tunnel, clearly people still preferred the train as the service didn't last too long

It'll be interesting to see if Stagecoach tries upping the frequency of their Megabus service from Portsmouth to Loondon once FG take over. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they did and in the morning & evening peaks between the coast & Guildford it should in theory be quicker than the train.

 

[pompeyfan]

A few years ago I believe First tried to gain some of the Portsmouth-London commuter marked by running a regular coach service taking advantage of the new Hindhead tunnel, clearly people still preferred the train as the service didn't last too long

The downturn of the U.K. Greyhound was mainly due poor management and this insistence of moving the operation from Scania bus & Coach in segensworgh to First's bus depot in Hoeford, Gosport.

It'll be interesting to see if Stagecoach tries upping the frequency of their Megabus service from Portsmouth to Loondon once FG take over. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they did and in the morning & evening peaks between the coast & Guildford it should in theory be quicker than the train.

Megabus don't run to London from Portsmouth, only the M34 which ends up in Yorkshire, and that only runs twice a day. Obviously there's nothing to stop them trying. It'll be interesting to see how they meet the increase. I didn't think the xx:45 followed anything, but I agree it gets held by the terminating 313.

You mention about car being quicker into Portsmouth, which it can be, but on a weekend you've got no hope, traffic coming into the city on the 275 can be ridiculous, and the queue into Gunwharf as I type is stretching from Anglsea road (just after PMS) nose to tail along Park road into the car park.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Strange I've seen a Megabus on The Hard a few times, so what's going on there?

 

[pompeyfan]

Strange I've seen a Megabus on The Hard a few times, so what's going on there?

I'm not doubting you've seen it!

There's a ~15:00 departure from the Hard that goes to Bradford, and there's an early morning run too on the same run, but megabus do not currently run to London from Portsmouth.

 

[asb]

I'm not doubting you've seen it!

There's a ~15:00 departure from the Hard that goes to Bradford, and there's an early morning run too on the same run, but megabus do not currently run to London from Portsmouth.

Small correction, it goes to Leeds. The morning journey goes all the way to Newcastle.