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about services between Italy and Slovenia

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Stephen Lee

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Knowing that there is a pair of Regional trains between Udine/Trieste-Ljubljana, I was wondering if they can restore long distance trains between Italy and Slovenia unless there is still space on the Regional train.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Knowing that there is a pair of Regional trains between Udine/Trieste-Ljubljana, I was wondering if they can restore long distance trains between Italy and Slovenia unless there is still space on the Regional train.

According to the SŽ site, trains from Ljubljana are cut back to Villa Opicina again, with no date for extension to Trieste/Udine, maybe because of the Covid peak.
So you have to use Trieste Tram 2 down the hill from the tram terminus at Villa Opicina (or the bus replacement).

Trenitalia seem very reluctant to run through train services.
There are apparently plenty of buses, which are faster than the train anyway.
 

30907

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According to the SŽ site, trains from Ljubljana are cut back to Villa Opicina again, with no date for extension to Trieste/Udine, maybe because of the Covid peak.
So you have to use Trieste Tram 2 down the hill from the tram terminus at Villa Opicina (or the bus replacement).

Trenitalia seem very reluctant to run through train services.
There are apparently plenty of buses, which are faster than the train anyway.
There is a through portion Wien-Trieste in the new timetable, extending the existing Wien-Ljubljana working.
 

Austriantrain

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There is a through portion Wien-Trieste in the new timetable, extending the existing Wien-Ljubljana working.

The general problem is that the rail line is extremely slow and also takes a huge detour going from Villa Opicina to Trieste. So the demand will never be large (going from Ljubljana to Trieste by car is much, much faster) even though Trieste is (Covid aside) now a major tourist destination.

There was a direct Venice - Ljubljana bypassing Trieste Centrale (the only way to achieve a half decent journey time) for a couple of years some time ago using SZ Pendolini, but it didn’t last long.

Last, Trenitalia is not really enthusiastic about international services.
 
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Old Yard Dog

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Italians can always walk the 25 yards or so to Nova Gorica station. The Italy / Slovenia border is just outside the station entrance.

This border is unmanned as both countries are in the EU. This is in marked contrast with borders between the seven (if you count Kosovo) former states of Yugoslavia, most of which are "proper" borders with full formalities.
 

RT4038

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Italians can always walk the 25 yards or so to Nova Gorica station. The Italy / Slovenia border is just outside the station entrance.

This border is unmanned as both countries are in the EU. This is in marked contrast with borders between the seven (if you count Kosovo) former states of Yugoslavia, most of which are "proper" borders with full formalities.

Yes, but as Gorizia Centrale (FS) station and Nova Gorica (SZ) station are about 3.5 km (45 min walk) apart from each other, this is pretty useless as a practical International passenger route. Added to which, trains at Nova Gorica do not go to Ljubljana ,requiring a change at Sezana, or a roundabout route via Jesenice, and run pretty infrequently.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There is a through portion Wien-Trieste in the new timetable, extending the existing Wien-Ljubljana working.

The times will have to change then, as the current turnround time of EC150/151 in Ljubljana of 1h45m is insufficient to get to Trieste and back.
But I can see ÖBB being keen to have a service run all the way from Vienna to Trieste on the old Südbahn again.
 

Austriantrain

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The times will have to change then, as the current turnround time of EC150/151 in Ljubljana of 1h45m is insufficient to get to Trieste and back.
But I can see ÖBB being keen to have a service run all the way from Vienna to Trieste on the old Südbahn again.

The timings between Vienna and Ljubljana won’t change.
 

30907

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The times will have to change then, as the current turnround time of EC150/151 in Ljubljana of 1h45m is insufficient to get to Trieste and back.
But I can see ÖBB being keen to have a service run all the way from Vienna to Trieste on the old Südbahn again.
No, the through portion (not train) will have a very long layover in Trieste, requiring an extra 3 coaches IIRC. In fact, it could logically be used for the Lubljana-Trieste-Ljubljana regional train if and when it is reinstated.
 

Old Yard Dog

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Yes, but as Gorizia Centrale (FS) station and Nova Gorica (SZ) station are about 3.5 km (45 min walk) apart from each other, this is pretty useless as a practical International passenger route. Added to which, trains at Nova Gorica do not go to Ljubljana ,requiring a change at Sezana, or a roundabout route via Jesenice, and run pretty infrequently.

You're right about Ljubljana but the Bohinj railway is a pretty line which provides excellent access to tourist honey pot of Lake Bled. And there are such things as taxis and local buses, you don't have to walk.
 

RT4038

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You're right about Ljubljana but the Bohinj railway is a pretty line which provides excellent access to tourist honey pot of Lake Bled. And there are such things as taxis and local buses, you don't have to walk.

Quite, but this is hardly in the spirit of the OP.
 

30907

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You're right about Ljubljana but the Bohinj railway is a pretty line which provides excellent access to tourist honey pot of Lake Bled. And there are such things as taxis and local buses, you don't have to walk.
The local bus does the job nicely, though you have to walk the last 100m across the border - ISTR there is a proposal to reinstate a passenger service between Gorizia and Nova Gorica, though I suspect the bus will be as quick.
 

class ep-09

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We can only dream off the direct daily and nightly trains from Budapest to Venice via Zagreb / Ljubljana / Trieste that were still running in the 90’s .
Best of the journey was the ride along Sava river and lake of Balaton
 

dutchflyer

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As such since some years TrenItalia is indeed limited to service within It itself. Except for the coördinated/combined Ti_Lo to Switzerland.
See also enforced change at Brennero for local trains and OeBB running on its own account the 2 hourly through fast trains.
 

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And yet Trenitalia has been keen to take on franchises in the UK, and has acquired the TrainOSE passenger network in Greece.
As well as planning to start open access services in France and Spain.
 

RT4038

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And yet Trenitalia has been keen to take on franchises in the UK, and has acquired the TrainOSE passenger network in Greece.
As well as planning to start open access services in France and Spain.

I am sure that the lack of International connections across Italy's borders by TrenItalia will be because of financial considerations (i.e.not enough subsidy offered) rather than due to principle.
It is notoriously difficult to get adjoining regions to pay for cross boundary services, let alone adjoining countries!
 

Austriantrain

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I am sure that the lack of International connections across Italy's borders by TrenItalia will be because of financial considerations (i.e.not enough subsidy offered) rather than due to principle.
It is notoriously difficult to get adjoining regions to pay for cross boundary services, let alone adjoining countries!

Not really. The ÖBB-DB Munich - Verona services are commercial services (no PSO) on the whole journey, as are ÖBB Vienna - Venice services on the Italian side. Trenitalia is - just like SNCF - simply not interested in anything marginal that needs some effort to make it work and prefers to focus on Cashcows only.

ÖBB and DB were confronted a number of years ago with the fact that TI did not want to run the Brenner services anymore, decided that such a lack of services was not acceptable and went on their own. These services are not money-spinners, but they work, even to the point that new train sets are soon to be delivered.
 
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RT4038

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Not really. The ÖBB-DB Munich - Verona services are commercial services (no PSO) on the whole journey, as are ÖBB Vienna - Venice services on the Italian side. Trenitalia is - just like SNCF - simply not interested in anything marginal that needs some effort to make it work and prefers to focus on Cashcows only.

ÖBB and DB were confronted a number of years ago with the fact that TI did not want to run the Brenner services anymore, decided that such a lack of services was not acceptable and went on their own. These services are not money-spinners, but they work, even to the point that new train sets are soon to be delivered.

So it is financial reasons then (i.e.no subsidies available)!

Perhaps Trenitalia and SNCF are not in a financial and political position to take risks on providing International services, when some of their domestic services are struggling. These two undertakings are by no means alone amongst European countries that provide little or no International train service.

The DB and OBB may provide these services now, but if their financial position becomes tighter these international forays could easily be curtailed.
 

Austriantrain

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These two undertakings are by no means alone amongst European countries that provide little or no International train service.

Together with RENFE, CP and some Balkan countries they are are pretty much alone. Contrary to what you seem to think, international services are actually doing well and growing - many or even most without PSOs - in most of Europe.
 

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I know it's basically dead right now, but Thello, the open access Italy-France operator, has been 100% Trenitalia owned for a while. Whilst SNCF run services, either directly them, joint ventures, or companies they have a large stake in, to every neighbouring country
 

RT4038

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Together with RENFE, CP and some Balkan countries they are are pretty much alone. Contrary to what you seem to think, international services are actually doing well and growing - many or even most without PSOs - in most of Europe.

I don't think The Netherlands, Belgium or any of the Baltic states do very much either.

SNCF (in their various guises] however, do have plenty of International routes.
 

MarcVD

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Belgium does not support long distance international services but offers a lot of small distance international connections : Lille (from Kortrijk and Tournai), Luxembourg (from Bruxelles and Liège), Aachen, Maastricht, and Rosendaal. Plus the IC to Amsterdam in cooperation with NS. Most of them are hourly. Proportional to the country size, I don’t believe many others do better...
 

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I don't think The Netherlands, Belgium or any of the Baltic states do very much either.

SNCF (in their various guises] however, do have plenty of International routes.
NS isn't running a lot of international services on its own indeed, but works together a lot with operators from neighbouring countries. The only service with NS stock is the already mentioned IC Amsterdam - Brussels, but NS is also partner in Thalys. Also they own a few (four when I remember correctly) ICE3M trainsets which are also partially staffed by NS. The same is the case for the IC Amsterdam - Berlin where NS provides the locomotive.

Besides NS there are also several regional operators offering cross-border connections to/from The Netherlands: Arriva runs Groningen - Leer and Maastricht - Aachen, the cross-border portion of Hengelo - Bielefeld is a joined operation of Keolis Deutschland and Keolis Nederland.
 

RT4038

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Besides NS there are also several regional operators offering cross-border connections to/from The Netherlands: Arriva runs Groningen - Leer and Maastricht - Aachen, the cross-border portion of Hengelo - Bielefeld is a joined operation of Keolis Deutschland and Keolis Nederland.

These are minor local trains, no doubt covered by PSO subsidies. I am sure that Trenitalia would be happy to provide such services across the borders of Italy in the same financial circumstance. However, I suspect that Italy does not want to provide this and is quite happy to leave the financial risk of cross border services to wealthier neighbours (or not provide at all and leave the available traffic to private bus operators).
 

MarcVD

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These are minor local trains, no doubt covered by PSO subsidies.
Not sure of that. I always heard SNCB, when asked to open more cross border relations, say that they could not afford it because those international relations are open to competition and can therefore not receive any subsidy.
 

DanielB

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Can't find a lot about how the cross-border part of Maastricht - Aachen is financed, but the domestic part of this service is part of the Limburg concession and as such receives subsidies. The infrastructure (electrification and future expansion from single to double track) has been subsidized by the EU.

But, even when subsidized, Trenitalia seems to have very little operations outside Italy. There's a minor share in the UK and that's it.
Ok, they have the Dordrecht - Geldermalsen route in The Netherlands, however that's operated by Qbuzz which is part of BusItalia which is part of the FS Group so apart from having the same parent company quite far from Trenitalia.
Other European operators have much more operations across borders, albeit that most of them are not crossing any borders.
 

RT4038

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Can't find a lot about how the cross-border part of Maastricht - Aachen is financed, but the domestic part of this service is part of the Limburg concession and as such receives subsidies. The infrastructure (electrification and future expansion from single to double track) has been subsidized by the EU.

But, even when subsidized, Trenitalia seems to have very little operations outside Italy. There's a minor share in the UK and that's it.
Ok, they have the Dordrecht - Geldermalsen route in The Netherlands, however that's operated by Qbuzz which is part of BusItalia which is part of the FS Group so apart from having the same parent company quite far from Trenitalia.
Other European operators have much more operations across borders, albeit that most of them are not crossing any borders.

It has been pointed out above that Trenitalia also has the TrainOSE operation in Greece, and the Thello cross border routes (whose future is uncertain and unlikely to be a cash cow!).

The main international routes are provided by operators of the wealthier neighbours, who probably better have the resources to underpin the financial risk. ('These services are not money spinners' quoted in post # 17 [as Trenitalia have found with Thello])
 

riceuten

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"So you have to use Trieste Tram 2 down the hill from the tram terminus at Villa Opicina"

Bus replacement (Number 4). Tram hasn't run for 4 years and shows no prospect of returning, unfortunately. The tram station was quite a trot from Villa Opicina Station, whereas at least the bus runs directly from the forecourt (or did when I was there)
 

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NS isn't running a lot of international services on its own indeed, but works together a lot with operators from neighbouring countries. The only service with NS stock is the already mentioned IC Amsterdam - Brussels, but NS is also partner in Thalys. Also they own a few (four when I remember correctly) ICE3M trainsets which are also partially staffed by NS. The same is the case for the IC Amsterdam - Berlin where NS provides the locomotive.

Besides NS there are also several regional operators offering cross-border connections to/from The Netherlands: Arriva runs Groningen - Leer and Maastricht - Aachen, the cross-border portion of Hengelo - Bielefeld is a joined operation of Keolis Deutschland and Keolis Nederland.

There's also the Amsterdam-Innsbruck/Vienna Nightjet, which is delayed because of Covid, currently until February.
 

Stephen Lee

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Btw does anyone have ideas whether the ETR564s have started rev. services for Villach-Udine Micotra???
 
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