Accessible trains and toilets

[Killingworth]

In recent years the railway industry has spent immense sums to provide improved accomodation for those with disabilities. The most obvious is larger train toilets and space beside them for a wheelchair.

I'm sure I can't be the only rail user who has rarely seen a wheelchair being taken aboard a train, let alone seen a user use a toilet. All that effort but it's still too much of an ordeal for a user to get on and off a train. That's despite the stations also receiving major attention with all sorts of ramped footbridges, lifts and other alterations. Assistance services are only available at the largest stations. Ramps on platforms and trains are rarely deployed not least because wheelchair users rarely travel by train.

I recently met a gentleman parking his car in a disabled bay at my local station. The way he deployed his wheelchair then swung himself out of the car and into it was impressive. I asked him what he thought of arrangements going on trains. Ah, he wasnt going on the train but was visiting the barbers next to the station!

We got talking. A thalidomide victim he's never had legs but has incredibly strong arms and is fiercely independent. He did try a train once but didn't like delaying it for the ramp to be deployed at both ends of his short journey Into Sheffield. He'd wheeled himself, slowly, the 4 miles or so back! His view is that trains generally are not sufficiently accessible for the majority of wheelchair users to get into in the first place.

On a recent 15 minute journey from Barnetby to Market Rasen aboard a single car 153 I was amazed to see 4 people from different parts of the train make use of the toilet, hop up, go and return to seat. On another journey between Scunthorpe and Sheffield on a crowded 185 (previous hourly service cancelled) there was a toilet queue for most of the journey. There certainly is demand for toilets on trains!

I was great impressed to encounter Greater Anglias new rolling stock and noted its step free access. Is it attracting more wheelchair users? At least they can get aboard much more easily!

Has anyone seen any wheelchair users actually use one of these onboard accessible toilets that have been installed at enormous expense?

Shouldn't all new trains be specified to have step free platform access?

 

[O L Leigh]

I hope you don't take this as an aggressive dig as it's not intended to be one, but your objection that Universal Access Toilets (UAT) seem to be an expensive frippery on the basis that you have never seen one used is an odd one. I can't say whether or not the toilets get used, but I must have someone with reduced mobility boarding my trains at least once a day, not all of whom require wheelchairs but for whom the UAT must be a great help.

As to GA's low-floor Stadlers, well I think they're a step in the right direction (if you'll pardon the pun) but I don't believe that they are a panacea. For me the real test would be to see how one copes with the platforms at Tamworth High Level.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have seen hundreds of wheelchair users board a train although I tend not to note their toilet habits.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shouldn't all new trains be specified to have step free platform access?

Yes. And the recent orders of 80x, CAF units and Aventras were a criminal missed opportunity which we are now saddled with for 30+ years.

 

[Killingworth]

I hope you don't take this as an aggressive dig as it's not intended to be one, but your objection that Universal Access Toilets (UAT) seem to be an expensive frippery on the basis that you have never seen one used is an odd one. I can't say whether or not the toilets get used, but I must have someone with reduced mobility boarding my trains at least once a day, not all of whom require wheelchairs but for whom the UAT must be a great help.

As to GA's low-floor Stadlers, well I think they're a step in the right direction (if you'll pardon the pun) but I don't believe that they are a panacea. For me the real test would be to see how one copes with the platforms at Tamworth High Level.

I was intending to get attention!

Wheelchair users generally are put off using trains because they're so hard to board, and it goes well beyond wheelchair users of course. All the attention that's been paid to making provision for them on the trains without enough on getting them independently onboard means the toilets must be rarely used by those they're designed for. Able bodied people without any major disability are deterred from using trains by the"Mind the Gap" issue.

I've seen a blind lady with guide dog leaving a 755. She wouldn't get out, she was looking for the step that wasn't there and didn't trust the dog's confidence!

 

[O L Leigh]

OK, so I understand why you're being deliberately provocative. However, I think that the reasons why people of all abilities choose a certain mode of transport are more complex than issues with the UATs or platform boarding gaps.

But yes, I agree that trains should be easier to board. I have said in another thread that I believe trains should have user-operated powered ramps that they can deploy themselves, but even that is not a simple fix because you need to ensure that there is adequate space on every platform to allow it to deploy.

 

[LowLevel]

It's far from unusual for me to have to deploy the ramp and also for the toilet to be used. Skegness trains in the summer can have 3 or 4 wheelchair users turn up per train along with people using folding chairs. We also have regular wheelchair users on the other long distance and local routes.

Of course accessible toilets also allow room for visually impaired people to take Guide dogs into the loo, or people who need help from a companion for whatever reason to both fit inside.

 

[TheEdge]

Wheelchair users generally are put off using trains because they're so hard to board, and it goes well beyond wheelchair users of course. All the attention that's been paid to making provision for them on the trains without enough on getting them independently onboard means the toilets must be rarely used by those they're designed for.

There are a lot more facets to an accessible railway than level boarding and a UAT. A journey is not made by solely the ability to get on a train and have a wee. Is every station accessible? No. Can every station be made accessible? Short answer, yes in theory. Long answer, yes but how much money and engineering are we looking at? You've already touched on the embarrassment (maybe the wrong term, perhaps sense of imposition?) of needing the assistance, I know its an issue that affects my mother's travel choices. Does every service have a turn up and go capability? No.

Is the 745/755 a big step in the right direction? Yes. As a driver on those it is quite nice to see wheelchair users being able to get on and off just like every other passenger. Is a retractable step a magic bullet? Absolutely not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the 745/755 a big step in the right direction? Yes. As a driver on those it is quite nice to see wheelchair users being able to get on and off just like every other passenger. Is a retractable step a magic bullet? Absolutely not.

Is it a magic bullet? No.

Should it, and a standard height, be mandatory for all new stock? Yes, absolutely. Platform heights can catch up over time as a rolling programme.

 

[TheEdge]

Is it a magic bullet? No.

Should it, and a standard height, be mandatory for all new stock? Yes, absolutely. Platform heights can catch up over time as a rolling programme.

That's still thinking too small. Platforms and doors are good and well but until someone can get from the road to their seat without a single accessibility issue across every platform and every station on the network then the railways are not truly accessible. How many station are accessed via a gate with a latch? Or only have a footbridge? And so on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's still thinking too small. Platforms and doors are good and well but until someone can get from the road to their seat without a single accessibility issue across every platform and every station on the network then the railways are not truly accessible. How many station are accessed via a gate with a latch? Or only have a footbridge? And so on.

There is a rolling programme to fix these, effectively, though some stations won't be reasonably fixable ever due to their location (Aughton Park is one example, but a wheelchair user would just use nearby Ormskirk or Town Green).

Rolling stock is bought in large batches and lasts 30-50 years, so that is the more urgent fix before any more is built. With regard to 80x, Aventras and CAF units, now would be the time to spec and order a low floor trailer to be inserted before the production lines close.

 

[JamesT]

Rolling stock is bought in large batches and lasts 30-50 years, so that is the more urgent fix before any more is built. With regard to 80x, Aventras and CAF units, now would be the time to spec and order a low floor trailer to be inserted before the production lines close.

Is it going to be possible to extend the 5-car 80x? Two potential issues, power to weight on diesel with only 3/6 cars powered instead of 3/5, and would a 2x6 formation fit in all the stations?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it going to be possible to extend the 5-car 80x?

Take one out and keep it for spares. Or use them with new engines etc to build some more 5s into 9s.

Two potential issues, power to weight on diesel with only 3/6 cars powered instead of 3/5, and would a 2x6 formation fit in all the stations?

The power thing could be an issue, but perhaps an option would be for the low-floor vehicle to be one of the end vehicles as these are already unpowered.

 

[O L Leigh]

Rolling stock is bought in large batches and lasts 30-50 years, so that is the more urgent fix before any more is built. With regard to 80x, Aventras and CAF units, now would be the time to spec and order a low floor trailer to be inserted before the production lines close.

I understand your reasoning but I’m unsure of the practicalities of your proposed solution. While the production lines may be open, producing a low-floor derivative vehicle for insertion would be more akin to building a whole new train from scratch as they will need to be structurally different from the existing vehicles. It would also require thought about how these things are implemented operationally to ensure that trains are always correctly orientated with the infrastructure.

You may recall in another thread that I said that I felt we’d missed the boat on this and that it should have been addressed prior to the Thameslink and IET rolling stock procurement programmes. I still feel this is the case.

 

[221101 Voyager]

I’ve found UAT toilets to be a mixed bag.

Some are really well designed and easy to use, whereas some are absolute tosh!


Good ones include on 350s for example, I’ve used these many times without issue.

Bad ones include on Renatus 321s, one unit had it out of order yet people manually opened the door.

Another unit I went on the door wouldn’t lock, it was one of those levers you rotate up and down. I think these Renatus units must have the lock tied into the air supply somewhere as when I used it there was these noises that sounded like gushes of air and the lock violently kept rotating on its own at speed about 4 times and wouldn’t stay locked whatever I tried which was frustrating.

I also used one on a 195 in Piccadilly and I was just about to wash my hands and suddenly all the lights in the toilet went out and I thought oh dear I’m locked in.

I looked at the lock on the main panel and it had manually unlocked itself.

Naturally, I thought the toilet was faulty, so reported it to the guard who said if the drivers key has been out for more than 5 minutes the toilets switch off!

I’ve travelled on pretty much every modern unit and have never had a unit with a “quirk“ quite like this.

 

[Killingworth]

About 4 or 5 years ago I used a recently refurbished EMR 158 somewhere east of Peterborough and failed to notice the warning signs, the floor was very wet. Did what I'd gone for, fortunately standing up, pushed the button. Whoosh, a column of water covered me from head to toe. I was suited that day for a meeting in Norwich. I couldn't help but laugh. Tried again with the seat down and it still blasted across the floor.

Very friendly conductor who'd just been proudly explaining the new features, like USB sockets (out of sight) and the display screens was sympathetic. To be fair EMR offered to pay for the suit to be cleaned but I'd dried out by Norwich.

 

[LowLevel]

About 4 or 5 years ago I used a recently refurbished EMR 158 somewhere east of Peterborough and failed to notice the warning signs, the floor was very wet. Did what I'd gone for, fortunately standing up, pushed the button. Whoosh, a column of water covered me from head to toe. I was suited that day for a meeting in Norwich. I couldn't help but laugh. Tried again with the seat down and it still blasted across the floor.

Very friendly conductor who'd just been proudly explaining the new features, like USB sockets (out of sight) and the display screens was sympathetic. To be fair EMR offered to pay for the suit to be cleaned but I'd dried out by Norwich.

When they were first installed they had a design of water jet that could be turned to face upwards by miscreants and fire water everywhere, same as the 222s. They were subsequently altered to stop that happening. The cleaners also used to drop smelly jelly things in there and if placed in the wrong location they had the same effect so they were told to stop using them.

 

[Killingworth]

When they were first installed they had a design of water jet that could be turned to face upwards by miscreants and fire water everywhere, same as the 222s. They were subsequently altered to stop that happening. The cleaners also used to drop smelly jelly things in there and if placed in the wrong location they had the same effect so they were told to stop using them.

I'd forgotten the close encounter with smelly jelly

Off forum I've been reminded of the Campaign for Level Boarding. An interesting website here; https://www.levelboarding.org.uk/