Accidentally Used Ticket Booked For A Future Date

[Ashnel97]

I recently decided to move from London to Leeds and thus decided to travel by LNER. I intended to travel on the 27th of June but accidentally booked my ticket for the 25th of July. It was an online ticket and I didn't notice my mistake. At the entrance, I tried scanning my ticket but the system didn't let me through. So, I spoke to a guardsman who let me through. The ticket conductor also checked my tickets and give me the green light so I assumed everything was fine. It was only at Leeds Station where a guardsman noticed the incorrect date and asked me to give my personal details to the ticketmaster. I did as I was instructed and later received a mail in the post instructing me to provide a detailed account of the matter. I co operated and received a mail today instructing me to pay 226 pounds [a 90 pound fixed penalty and 136 pounds for a ticket]. I could accept paying the penalty but why am I being made to pay for another ticket when the ticket I used is set in the future? I would appreciate any help and advice.

 

[CrispyUK]

At a very black & white level, you were travelling without a valid ticket for the journey you were making, so are being charged what I guess is the Anytime Single fare (appears to be £136.50) plus a penalty on top.

What ticket type / price was the ticket you purchased for 25th July?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As a clarification point, if the £136.50 ticket (SOS) had been sold on board, might the OP have avoided a £90 "penalty"?

In addition, who would have charged the OP at Leeds? (And who or what is the 'Ticketmaster'?)

P.S. Presumably the OP now has a ticket for 25th July that's no longer needed. Depending on ticket type, might this have any refund value?

 

[ta-toget]

…why am I being made to pay for another ticket when the ticket I used is set in the future?…

Because you didn't have a valid ticket with you when you were travelling, and you could (potentially) also travel on the 25th of July. So you therefore need to purchase another ticket. Depending on your ticket type, you may be able to get a refund of it, perhaps less an admin fee, so you would not be out of pocket so much. This refund would not apply to "Advance" tickets, only flexible ones.

As a clarification point, if the £136.50 ticket (SOS) had been sold on board, might the OP have avoided a £90 "penalty"?

Indeed, who would have issued this at Leeds? (And who or what is the 'Ticketmaster'?)

I'm not sure whether it's standard practice, and I suspect it isn't, but I have been on a train where some travellers had a ticket for the following week or something, and I think they were offered a new ticket. They definitely didn't have to pay a penalty.

 

[CrispyUK]

I'm not sure whether it's standard practice, and I suspect it isn't, but I have been on a train where some travellers had a ticket for the following week or something, and I think they were offered a new ticket. They definitely didn't have to pay a penalty.

I think this is the kind of situation where a bit of discretion would be useful depending on the exact circumstances. If the OP was travelling on a £136.50 SOS ticket, just for the wrong date because of a genuine mistake, and there was no suspicion they had been using it for a few days, etc - then the customer friendly approach would be to offer advice to be more careful in future and allow it (assuming they have the ability to scan an e-ticket as used ahead of the ticket date or otherwise mark/cancel it, to prevent it being used again on the correct date or refunded).

However if the OP was travelling on a peak time train and holding a £29 advance for a train several weeks ahead, that would definitely be seen as trying it on deliberately and I would expect to lead to the SOS + £90 settlement offer scenario.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

This is an unfortunate incident. As others have said technically you didn’t have a valid ticket and so I would pay what they are asking to stop the matter from escalating, the last thing you want is it ending up in the magistrates court.

Once the matter is settled I’d then write to LNER customer services explaining what has happened and asking if they will consider refunding the ticket you didn’t use. They are under no obligation to do this but you might strike lucky, or they might even send you some vouchers.

If the unused ticket is an Advance ticket then under the current buy with confidence scheme you can change the date of travel (if you pay any difference in fare, if appropriate), which could be useful if you will be making this journey again soon.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Let me explain what will happen if you don’t pay the £226. The railway will consider whether they should take you to court for not having a valid ticket. If they do, and the court agrees with them, then instead of paying the £226 you will have to pay a fine, plus the train fare, plus court costs. The fine by itself may well be more than the £226 (the level of fines depends on your income), the train fare will be the same as currently asked for, and costs may be £200 or so.

The cheapest way out of this matter would be to pay the £226 in the time that the railway have allowed you. I also think that would be the best thing to do in that by the letter of the law the railway are in the right, and I would expect them to win at court leaving you to pay the fine. Like other people here, I think that the railway could have shown rather more sympathy, but they are doing nothing legally wrong in pursuing you for this, so if you try to argue your case you would probably lose.

 

[30907]

The standard announcement on LNER trains warns people about travelling with invalid tickets. It is very unfortunate that the OP didn't say anything to the on-board staff member, and that they also didn't notice the error. They could have then avoided the £90 at least.

Incidentally, I hope LNER's mail didn't call the £90 a "penalty."

 

[Haywain]

Let me explain what will happen if you don’t pay the £226. LNER will consider whether they should take you to court for not having a valid ticket.

I suspect that the OP is not dealing with LNER, but with Northern as it is they who staff the barrier line at Leeds.

I intended to travel on the 27th of June but accidentally booked my ticket for the 25th of July. It was an online ticket and I didn't notice my mistake.

Can you clarify what ticket you held (and presumably still hold), how much it cost and which website you purchased from?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I suspect that the OP is not dealing with LNER, but with Northern as it is they who staff the barrier line at Leeds.

I can only respond to what the OP told us, but my previous post now edited to avoid this point detracting from my advice.

 

[nanstallon]

A bit more commonsense (as had been exercised earlier by staff in the OP's journey), and a bit less aggression towards the paying customer, would go a long way.

 

[AlterEgo]

A bit more commonsense (as had been exercised earlier by staff in the OP's journey), and a bit less aggression towards the paying customer, would go a long way.

We don’t know any of the details of the OP’s ticket so we don’t know if “common sense” ought to have been applied. If it was an Anytime which just happened to have the wrong date, then yeah, I think it should have been let go, but if the OP had a cheap advance for a month’s time and was on entirely the wrong train (which no doubt would have been more expensive) then I can see the Leeds gate line staff’s issue.

It’s most likely that no discretion was ever actually shown and the gate line at King’s Cross and the guard on board simply didn’t check the date.

 

[island]

As with the others, I would strongly advise paying the amount requested to ensure that the matter does not progress to prosecution. Sadly you wouldn’t have a leg to stand on in court.

If your ticket, bought for a date 4 weeks after you wanted to travel, is an anytime or super off-peak ticket, you can refund it subject to a £10 fee. If it’s an Advance ticket, you can still use it for travel this Sunday, or change it to use at a future date at your convenience.

 

[father_jack]

What gets my goat as staff is how two previous ticket checkers missed the date. At the barrier the "out of date" code (42 ?) may have shown.

How I tend to adjudicate on this situation is if the ticket has been stamped with the wrong date, well we've had their money and they can't get a refund. So in my opinion the matter is closed and let them out. Was the OP's ticket marked electronically or stamped ?

 

[island]

As the OP refers to scanning their ticket I think it’s a safe bet it’s not physically capable of being stamped. I don’t know if guards are even handling tickets at the moment anyway.

 

[father_jack]

As the OP refers to scanning their ticket I think it’s a safe bet it’s not been stamped.

The "clipper" app used by revenue staff should still show the errant scan at the gate when they were permitted entry and any subsequent scan on board.

Yes by the letter they have travelled without a valid piece but the law of unintended consequences has condemned them.

 

[island]

The "clipper" app used by revenue staff should still show the errant scan at the gate when they were permitted entry and any subsequent scan on board.

Yes by the letter they have travelled without a valid piece but the law of unintended consequences has condemned them.

I’d be surprised if it was scanned on board as the scan would have rejected and the matter dealt with there by issuance of a new ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, I also don't think this ticket has been scanned. But this isn't terribly helpful for the OP.

Let me explain what will happen if you don’t pay the £226. The railway will consider whether they should take you to court for not having a valid ticket. If they do, and the court agrees with them, then instead of paying the £226 you will have to pay a fine, plus the train fare, plus court costs. The fine by itself may well be more than the £226 (the level of fines depends on your income), the train fare will be the same as currently asked for, and costs may be £200 or so.

The cheapest way out of this matter would be to pay the £226 in the time that the railway have allowed you. I also think that would be the best thing to do in that by the letter of the law the railway are in the right, and I would expect them to win at court leaving you to pay the fine. Like other people here, I think that the railway could have shown rather more sympathy, but they are doing nothing legally wrong in pursuing you for this, so if you try to argue your case you would probably lose.

This is basically the best advice.

 

[Haywain]

Several posters saying if an Anytime (or Super Off Peak) ticket was held that discretion should have been shown. Consider that on 25th Julythe holder turns up again and uses that ticket explaining how it must have been clipped in error on the previous occasion. That’s why allowing use of that ticket would have been the wrong thing to do.

 

[CrispyUK]

Several posters saying if an Anytime (or Super Off Peak) ticket was held that discretion should have been shown. Consider that on 25th Julythe holder turns up again and uses that ticket explaining how it must have been clipped in error on the previous occasion. That’s why allowing use of that ticket would have been the wrong thing to do.

I did caveat this in my post with saying that it would be providing the e-ticket could be clipped/cancelled in some way by the gate line that would prevent it being used again on 25th July.

Doing this should be technically possible, as it would be a similar mechanism to an e-ticket being cancelled for a refund or amendment, presumably this is indicated when the ticket is scanned and the holder can’t just blag that it must have been cancelled in error.

 

[skyhigh]

Doing this should be technically possible, as it would be a similar mechanism to an e-ticket being cancelled for a refund or amendment, presumably this is indicated when the ticket is scanned and the holder can’t just blag that it must have been cancelled in error.

You're limited in the options that can be selected. You can pick "Denied - before start date" or similar, but if it's marked like that you could easily explain "oh I booked two tickets for different dates and showed the wrong one first then the other one when they scanned it and said it for today".

Booking websites make it very clear the date you're looking at. It would perhaps be more understandable if you'd booked the same day in the wrong month, but if you get a different day in a different month I can see how it might raise suspicions.

 

[sefyllian]

Booking websites make it very clear the date you're looking at. It would perhaps be more understandable if you'd booked the same day in the wrong month, but if you get a different day in a different month I can see how it might raise suspicions.

I think it’s a fairly easy mistake to make though, if you’re looking to travel on a certain day rather than a certain date. I’m guessing the OP knew they wanted to travel on the last Sunday of the month, but didn’t spot that the calendar on the booking form was showing July instead of June. I’ve done something similar myself in the past.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think it’s a fairly easy mistake to make though, if you’re looking to travel on a certain day rather than a certain date. I’m guessing the OP knew they wanted to travel on the last Sunday of the month, but didn’t spot that the calendar on the booking form was showing July instead of June. I’ve done something similar myself in the past.

Yeah, I've made this mistake before although I was lucky enough to spot it before travel.

 

[SteveM70]

Booking websites make it very clear the date you're looking at. It would perhaps be more understandable if you'd booked the same day in the wrong month, but if you get a different day in a different month I can see how it might raise suspicions.

The dates are four weeks apart. Does the booking website in question require selecting a date from a calendar? If so picking right day wrong week is sort of understandable

 

[HSP 2]

If the OPs ticket that he used for travel was invalidated so that he can't use it again it then looks like he is getting charged twice for one journey and getting charged £90 on top of it. But until the OP gets back it all guess work.

 

[scrapy]

If it is Northern that are prosecuting I'd be interested to know the legalities of this and whether they have the permission of LNER to do this. I know Northern do have an agreement they can prosecute on behalf of TPE, however now both LNER and Northern are run by OLR then maybe they can? Anyone know?

(I am assuming that the OP made their full journey on LNER and didn't use Northern for any part eg. Doncaster to Leeds)

I do know of a case a few years ago where Virgin trains successfully prosecuted a passenger for travelling on a Northern service between Manchester and Stockport with a Virgin only ticket (there were agrivating factors). So maybe it is the case that any TOC can prosecute on behalf of another?

 

[Haywain]

If it is Northern that are prosecuting I'd be interested to know the legalities of this and whether they have the permission of LNER to do this. I know Northern do have an agreement they can prosecute on behalf of TPE, however now both LNER and Northern are run by OLR then maybe they can? Anyone know?

(I am assuming that the OP made their full journey on LNER and didn't use Northern for any part eg. Doncaster to Leeds)

I do know of a case a few years ago where Virgin trains successfully prosecuted a passenger for travelling on a Northern service between Manchester and Stockport with a Virgin only ticket (there were agrivating factors). So maybe it is the case that any TOC can prosecute on behalf of another?

There is nothing to prevent Northern prosecuting this matter and they do not need any authority from LNER to do so.

 

[AlterEgo]

If it is Northern that are prosecuting I'd be interested to know the legalities of this and whether they have the permission of LNER to do this. I know Northern do have an agreement they can prosecute on behalf of TPE, however now both LNER and Northern are run by OLR then maybe they can? Anyone know?

(I am assuming that the OP made their full journey on LNER and didn't use Northern for any part eg. Doncaster to Leeds)

I do know of a case a few years ago where Virgin trains successfully prosecuted a passenger for travelling on a Northern service between Manchester and Stockport with a Virgin only ticket (there were agrivating factors). So maybe it is the case that any TOC can prosecute on behalf of another?

The TOC does not need to prosecute "on behalf" of another. The law is TOC-blind and the amount of revenue derived from a ticket to a TOC makes no difference as to whether said TOC can prosecute an offence.

 

[father_jack]

The dates are four weeks apart. Does the booking website in question require selecting a date from a calendar? If so picking right day wrong week is sort of understandable

People/passengers/customers "sometimes" need to be cut just a little slack.

Believe me I have had to intervene in vociferous arguments between bloody minded ticket clerks and tourists who may just have made a mistake because 5/6 is the 6th of May in the biggest (so called) democracy on this rotating ball and yes they're 29 days early.

I refer back to my point- the railway has had their money. And really after you've given them customer service actually many will try to claim a refund ?

 

[Wallsendmag]

People/passengers/customers "sometimes" need to be cut just a little slack.

Believe me I have had to intervene in vociferous arguments between bloody minded ticket clerks and tourists who may just have made a mistake because 5/6 is the 6th of May in the biggest (so called) democracy on this rotating ball and yes they're 29 days early.

I refer back to my point- the railway has had their money. And really after you've given them customer service actually many will try to claim a refund ?

This is one of the most naive posts I've ever seen.