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Advice Only for Greater Anglia - Delay Repay Fraud

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Tazi Hupefi

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I have no idea if the above statement is true or not, but I am sure that if the police investigate and believe there is sufficient evidence to mount a prosecution the matter is then handed to the Crown Prosecution Service for a decision. This would be another safeguard for the accused. The downside, for the accused, of things going this far is that the current state of the court system means that a case can take many, many months to come before a court and you've got to be very certain of your innocence to want to risk things going that far.

It's a common myth that it takes many months / years to come before court.

Magistrates' Courts are actually really effective, (even with Covid), and you could resolve a criminal matter (even with a short trial) within 8-10 weeks of getting a summons, virtually all over the country. The vast majority of offences are dealt with at this level. Even more serious offences known as "either-way" such as Fraud, can be tried in the Magistrates' Court, and if their powers aren't enough after a finding of guilt, send the defendant to Crown Court just for sentencing, which again, is fairly quick. You are statistically unlikely to be acquitted at a trial in the Magistrate Court. There is a very high success rate for the prosecution.

The delay is almost entirely at Crown Court level, when a full jury trial is needed. And you would be quite right to state that I am seeing trials listed for late 2022 just as a floater, (i.e. we have to hope that another trial cracks/collapses to slot this one in!). The only reason for this really is a shortage of judicial sitting days. There's PLENTY of court capacity, (courts are woefully underutilized), but not enough judges available, and it's getting worse because of a recruitment crisis, and the fact the government doesn't want to fund more sitting days!
 
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MotCO

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You are statistically unlikely to be acquitted at a trial in the Magistrate Court. There is a very high success rate for the prosecution.

The cards do seem to be stacked in favour of GA. Although, as @Haywain says, the CPS have to accept that there is a case to answer, and that it is in the public interest to prosecute, we still do not know what 'evidence' GA have to prove their case. Will the CPS accept that a ticket passed through a ticket barrier actually proves that someone caught a particular train, or will they be looking for more substantial evidence?
 

ukkid

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The cards do seem to be stacked in favour of GA. Although, as @Haywain says, the CPS have to accept that there is a case to answer, and that it is in the public interest to prosecute, we still do not know what 'evidence' GA have to prove their case. Will the CPS accept that a ticket passed through a ticket barrier actually proves that someone caught a particular train, or will they be looking for more substantial evidence?
There isn't much of a difference in conviction rates between magistrates and crown courts though if I was being charged with fraud I'd probably elect for a Jury trial.

We don't really know what the likelihood of anyone who hasn't paid GA off being charged and subsequently convicted. Many a time the police opt for voluntary interviews because they have a complaint but not enough evidence to arrest, though not always. If a "dodgy claim" is found amongst a bunch of legitimate claims does that scream fraud, or give reasonable doubt that someone just made an error filling in one of their delay repay forms, or mixed them up. But then I'm speculating like everyone else here. None of us appear to to be experts on fraud offences, not have we seen any of the evidence beyond people telling us they were sent a list of suspect journeys (unless I missed something in the thread).I don't think we've heard back from anyone invited to interview telling us how it went
 

Riker87

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Anyone in doubt about these delay repay letters from Greater Anglia, I received a letter from the British transport police asking for me to make contact. I ignored the letter from Greater Anglia and now the police are involved. Beware guys!!
Did you get the GA letter before this or straight to BTP?
If you did get the GA did you email them and did they reply with a settlement offer or anything?
 

WesternLancer

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Did you get the GA letter before this or straight to BTP?
If you did get the GA did you email them and did they reply with a settlement offer or anything?
I took her post to mean she 1st got a letter from GA and chose to ignore it, and thus did not reply in any way. Then after some time a letter from BTP arrived. But that is from reading the same post you quoted when it was originally posted. I'm not sure there is any other way to interpret it is there?
 

Tazi Hupefi

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So have GA offered payment settlement for everyone who has replied?
So far that seems to be the case. If you're looking to settle yourself, just stay calm and polite, keep things simple and adopt an apologetic tone.

Ignoring them or taking a more defensive stance generally tends to escalate matters, sometime considerably.

If you are genuinely innocent, you should consider obtaining independent legal advice.
 

OnlyMe

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Hello. Has anyone been contacted by BTP or had their investigation taken further than the GA letters and emails?

I'm wondering how GA or BTP can prove guilt especially with an annual paper ticket that is damaged and replaced frequently throughout the year?

Interesting (similar) case in the papers by commuter Karen Ward, Ipswich.
 

robbeech

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I'm wondering how GA or BTP can prove guilt especially with an annual paper ticket that is damaged and replaced frequently throughout the year
I think the point is, in most cases they can’t. This is why they’re trying to get people to settle out of court because they don’t have to provide evidence to support this, they’re relying on people being scared to go to court, and making it clear that losing in court will have far worse consequences, which it will, without saying that there’s no evidence. It is working as people are paying up even when they’ve done nothing fraudulent.

If they’ve made a few dodgy claims, it’s worth coming to an agreement with them, I don’t think anyone is denying that’s the best course of action. However if you are sure you’ve done nothing fraudulent I’d advise not being bullied into paying them where it is not due.
 

OnlyMe

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Thank you, this is helpful.
I think the point is, in most cases they can’t. This is why they’re trying to get people to settle out of court because they don’t have to provide evidence to support this, they’re relying on people being scared to go to court, and making it clear that losing in court will have far worse consequences, which it will, without saying that there’s no evidence. It is working as people are paying up even when they’ve done nothing fraudulent.

If they’ve made a few dodgy claims, it’s worth coming to an agreement with them, I don’t think anyone is denying that’s the best course of action. However if you are sure you’ve done nothing fraudulent I’d advise not being bullied into paying them where it is not due.
Thank you, this is helpful. I'm a little shocked at the scare tactics used by certain posters. Burden of proof is on the railway, I guess.
 
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robbeech

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Thank you, this is helpful.

Thank you, this is helpful. I'm a little shocked at the scare tactics used by certain posters. Burden of proof is on the railway, I guess.
Only in court. As I say, if GA want you to settle out of court (which they will prefer) they don’t need any evidence at all that you’ve done anything wrong. in a lot of cases (smart cards etc) they might have some evidence, but it isn’t technically necessary out of court.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I'm wondering how GA or BTP can prove guilt especially with an annual paper ticket that is damaged and replaced frequently throughout the year?

The thing is, guilt doesn't have to be proved by direct evidence ('Mr A claimed Delay Repay for being on the 1800 train, but we have irrefutable proof that at that time on that day he was meeting the Prime Minister in Downing Street so we know he wasn't on the train'): all that is needed is proof beyond reasonable doubt: so at least in theory, the following argument might work: 'It is agreed that Mr A always works from 0830 to 1630: he never leaves his desk early, he never stays in town in the evening and always walks to the station arriving in time for the 1700 train. At his destination he always buys an evening paper from the newsagents that closes at 1800. Yet Mr A has claimed Delay Repay on the most remunerative train each day for hundreds of occasions each year, whether that train leaves at 1030 or 2300 or any other time. Mr A says that it is just luck, and he took those trains. We say that Mr A is lying and it is statistically impossible that he caught the trains he says he did. We invite the jury to find that it is beyond reasonable doubt that these claims weren't genuine.'

Of course, the weak point of this argument is whether Mr A's claimed journey pattern is really impossible, and I suspect a good brief for Mr A would get in a statistician as an expert witness. But if the jury don't go with the expert witness then Mr A loses, and all on circumstantial evidence.



Interesting (similar) case in the papers by commuter Karen Ward, Ipswich.
I think this is the case which we first saw here back in March (https://www.railforums.co.uk/posts/5027657/bookmark). Does anyone know if there has been movement since then which might illuminate matters?
 

OnlyMe

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Anyone in doubt about these delay repay letters from Greater Anglia, I received a letter from the British transport police asking for me to make contact. I ignored the letter from Greater Anglia and now the police are involved. Beware guys!!
I can't view this file, did anyone else have the same issue?
 

Fawkes Cat

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Hmm, wonder why I can't. Do you know if this poster shared an update on her investigation?
When I searched this thread against their name, this was the only post that came up.

My recollection of the discussion after this post was that we felt that fraud investigations were something that we weren't familiar with: while we are nothing more than amateurs making guesses on an internet forum, we hope to be helpful but there's a limit to the help we can give with issues that are new to us. So if anyone facing a fraud investigation wants to share what is happening with us (while protecting their own privacy) that would really help us to give better advice in the future, but in the short term we're likely to benefit more than whoever tells us about the investigation.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Hello. Has anyone been contacted by BTP or had their investigation taken further than the GA letters and emails?

I'm wondering how GA or BTP can prove guilt especially with an annual paper ticket that is damaged and replaced frequently throughout the year?

Interesting (similar) case in the papers by commuter Karen Ward, Ipswich.
I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle.

If you've made a dodgy claim before, and essentially you're guilty, you really shouldn't be focused on what they can or can't prove, or how they've identified the fact, and you would be well advised to make a real effort to settle the matter.

If you're innocent, it doesn't matter what GA can or can't do, because they can't have any evidence of fraud, only accusations or suspicions which you can refute.

Ultimately what evidence they do or do not have should not be relevant at this stage, you know whether you have or haven't done something wrong, which helps you work out what approach you should take.

I'm also very dubious that paper tickets are as anonymous as some people on this forum believe, especially season tickets.
 

Wolfie

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I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle.

If you've made a dodgy claim before, and essentially you're guilty, you really shouldn't be focused on what they can or can't prove, or how they've identified the fact, and you would be well advised to make a real effort to settle the matter.

If you're innocent, it doesn't matter what GA can or can't do, because they can't have any evidence of fraud, only accusations or suspicions which you can refute.

Ultimately what evidence they do or do not have should not be relevant at this stage, you know whether you have or haven't done something wrong, which helps you work out what approach you should take.

I'm also very dubious that paper tickets are as anonymous as some people on this forum believe, especially season tickets.
Re your last para l am inclined to believe what those who work in relevant areas in the industry say, particularly when it's based on the technical limitations of the media. On the other hand l have never made a fraudulent claim in my life and always set out an explanation of any ambiguity. Cards on the table from the start...
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Re your last para l am inclined to believe what those who work in relevant areas in the industry say.
Well given that there is evidence that SOME ticket information is captured by the ticket barriers, which I think is agreed on this forum, it's more a question of how easy it is to use that information to trace it to a particular person or journey. I'm pretty sure they could work out the journey looking at entry or exit times at the origin or destination, and then seeing what services were available in that time frame, even approximately.
 

Wallsendmag

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Well given that there is evidence that SOME ticket information is captured by the ticket barriers, which I think is agreed on this forum, it's more a question of how easy it is to use that information to trace it to a particular person or journey. I'm pretty sure they could work out the journey looking at entry or exit times at the origin or destination, and then seeing what services were available in that time frame, even approximately.
Could you point me in the direction of these gate suppliers as I'd be very interested in their product. What you have to remember is that each season carries an origin, destination ticket number status and route. Even the ticket number isn't unique to one ticket as each TIS in the country will produce a ticket with that number on at some point in it's existance.
 

robbeech

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Could you point me in the direction of these gate suppliers as I'd be very interested in their product. What you have to remember is that each season carries an origin, destination ticket number status and route. Even the ticket number isn't unique to one ticket as each TIS in the country will produce a ticket with that number on at some point in it's existance.
That gets in the way of them frightening people into paying though.
If you're innocent, it doesn't matter what GA can or can't do, because they can't have any evidence of fraud, only accusations or suspicions which you can refute.
But you CANNOT successfully refute it. This is the point. If you are innocent, GA can and do still force you to choose between a settlement (which is usually the value of ALL of your claims, plus an admin fee) and the frightening concept of going to court. There is NOT (as far as we can tell) an option where GA say, ok, you've confirmed you were on the trains, we are dropping the case, sorry to bother you. They make court sound even worse than it is, and they make it sound like you WILL be found guilty of fraud BECAUSE they know most will just pay up.
You are now trying other tactics such as suggesting these ticket machines can tell when you've used them with a paper ticket, again, putting it in peoples minds that they should just pay up. Where as people who actually deal with ticketing and retail claim this is really not a thing.
 

OnlyMe

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That gets in the way of them frightening people into paying though.

But you CANNOT successfully refute it. This is the point. If you are innocent, GA can and do still force you to choose between a settlement (which is usually the value of ALL of your claims, plus an admin fee) and the frightening concept of going to court. There is NOT (as far as we can tell) an option where GA say, ok, you've confirmed you were on the trains, we are dropping the case, sorry to bother you. They make court sound even worse than it is, and they make it sound like you WILL be found guilty of fraud BECAUSE they know most will just pay up.
You are now trying other tactics such as suggesting these ticket machines can tell when you've used them with a paper ticket, again, putting it in peoples minds that they should just pay up. Where as people who actually deal with ticketing and retail claim this is really not a thing.
Yes, thank you for understanding how "I'm approaching this"! This is my point: people are scaremongering in this forum - no one actually seems to know anything concrete (which makes me very suspicious of certain members). Hence my question, how can anything (innocent or otherwise) be proved when you can't recall what train you took everyday for a year? I'm just curious about other people's experiences as it seems that nothing has actually happened other than a lot of snail mail.

Someone I know received a similar letter months ago and after a few email exchanges, the trail went cold.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Someone I know received a similar letter months ago and after a few email exchanges, the trail went cold.
Thanks for sharing this: it helps us to have as much information as possible to understand what's happening.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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I did some fairly cursory searches online regarding barriers.


Admittedly for TfL. But confirms that entry/exit status, time bands, ticket type, discounts etc are recorded.

Cubic?

I'd wager that a FOI request to a publicly owned operator will assist further.

The gates store a number of magnetic tickets used for entry or exit by
15-minute period, and the type of product on each ticket. For example,
it’ll report that between 12:00 and 12:15, ten One-Day travel cards were
used for entry, one Child Privilege single, and so forth.



Throughout the day it downloads the data to Cubic (our transportation
system), clearing its cache after each download. That data is currently
retained centrally by Cubic for a period of eight weeks.

Yes, thank you for understanding how "I'm approaching this"! This is my point: people are scaremongering in this forum - no one actually seems to know anything concrete (which makes me very suspicious of certain members). Hence my question, how can anything (innocent or otherwise) be proved when you can't recall what train you took everyday for a year? I'm just curious about other people's experiences as it seems that nothing has actually happened other than a lot of snail mail.

Someone I know received a similar letter months ago and after a few email exchanges, the trail went cold.
It's black and white though, that's what you aren't understanding, nor are you denying wrongdoing. You seem to be trying to second guess what evidence they have on your activities. Is that a misconception? I don't think anybody on this forum supports helping anyone evade prosecution if they have actually done something wrong.

If you've done something wrong, you need to hold your hands up and sort it out.
If you haven't, fight it all the way as far as your means allow.

It really is that simple! You can't have your cake and eat it, i.e. only confess and sort it out when they provide evidence, criminal law doesn't work like that. Well it does, but it rarely ends well.

Sadly this forum has some members who want to take ideological battles up, seemingly from long held displeasure, rather than a more pragmatic approach to resolution.
 
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Haywain

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I did some fairly cursory searches online regarding barriers.
Some years ago I spent a lot of time analysing the ticket data from barriers at a major London station, mainly to establish that the logic was doing what we wanted it to. I can assure you that the chances of using such data to pick out the travel patterns of a particular customer would require them to hold an extremely unusual ticket. Otherwise it is simply not possible as no identifying information from CCST tickets is recorded. And whilst the barrier does write to the ticket, it is only a very limited amount of information about the last barrier the ticket passed through. So, in summary, there is not a chance that a TOC can hold or use information about the use of CCST tickets at ticket barriers for an individual.
 

XAM2175

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Admittedly for TfL. But confirms that entry/exit status, time bands, ticket type, discounts etc are recorded.
I'm reading that as meaning that that the gate records counts of tickets handled, not the actual ticket details, which aligns with what @Haywain has just posted.
 

43096

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If you are genuinely innocent, you should consider obtaining independent legal advice.
Of course, if you take independent legal advice there's a good chance it will cost you more that what it will cost in repaying the Delay Repay claims that Anglia want back.

No doubt GA know this and will be quids in from innocent people. Frankly that stinks. It's an utterly, utterly disgraceful way to treat your core customer base.
 

Wolfie

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Of course, if you take independent legal advice there's a good chance it will cost you more that what it will cost in repaying the Delay Repay claims that Anglia want back.

No doubt GA know this and will be quids in from innocent people. Frankly that stinks. It's an utterly, utterly disgraceful way to treat your core customer base.
That's why, possibly after the issue is resolved, l would actively take steps to make life as unpleasant and expensive as possible for the company and it's senior executives. Fight fire with fire and don't get mad get even...
 
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