Amsterdam by Eurostar

[Backroom_boy]

The quoted time to Amsterdam Central is 3 hours 41 minutes, any guesses how much this will be improved by the new track of Line 25N between Brussels and Mechelen?

 

[dutchflyer]

Nothing. Or if at all by 3-4 mins at the very best, most likely offset by easing off in the overcrowded sectors here in NL.
I am aware of a complete rebuild of Mechelen station (which traditionally has low and high level platforms) but the thought of being the relief on the sector from Brussel is/was the extension of the airport line (which was dead end but then rebuild at 90 degr. to allow through running). The ´old´ line 25 already has 4 tracks since before WW2 when the BRU-Antw. line became a showpiece of then modern railway engineering.

 

[cle]

The section through Brussels is slow too - and of course the final stretch from Schiphol to Central. A few mins here and there, with Mechelen and potentially some 320 km/h running one day, we can hope - might all add up to 10 mins and the magic 3h30. But a lot to get there first.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I wonder if there will be any services from London to Amsterdam and the planned for direct Amsterdam to London trains this year?

 

[Ianno87]

I wonder if there will be any services from London to Amsterdam and the planned for direct Amsterdam to London trains this year?

According to Seat 61's Twitter, one service each way has appeared on Eurostar's website from mid-July.

 

[92002]

The section through Brussels is slow too - and of course the final stretch from Schiphol to Central. A few mins here and there, with Mechelen and potentially some 320 km/h running one day, we can hope - might all add up to 10 mins and the magic 3h30. But a lot to get there first.

Amsterdam International trains are due to move to Zuid Station.

 

[DanielB]

Eventually that's the plan indeed, but not really possible until expansion of Amsterdam Zuid station has been completed. Currently the station is already quite heavily used with 28 trains per hour on just four tracks, so there's little space to add the international trains as these will use the platform longer (to check if everyone has disembarked). Securing the platform prior to arrival of a London-bound Eurostar is even completely impossible in the current situation.

And also quite a challenge: there is a "rear entrance" to Watergraafsmeer maintenance/cleaning yard branching off at Diemen Zuid, but the Diemen Zuid - Watergraafsmeer curve is single track and trains from Amsterdam Zuid will have to intersect the tracks from Weesp -> Schiphol on which 10 trains per hour pass.
Also the so-called Zuidasdok project, involving building a tunnel for the A10 motorway with the enlarged train/metro station on top, has been delayed as contracts with the builders have been cancelled as they wanted compensation for significant additional costs.

As long as Amsterdam Central has not been rebuilt to widen the currently very narrow platforms international trains will be able to start and end from there. When the rebuild of Amsterdam Central is finished however, platform 15 which houses the Eurostar terminal will no longer be available. This is due to the fact that tracks 14 and 15 are situated on an old bridge which runs trough the station (when looking carefully one can recognise this from the tunnels), therefore it's not possible to move track 15 when platform 14 is widened.

 

[Gadget88]

It’s a shame nobody has been able to do Amsterdam to London this year it’s been delayed for quite some time.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

It’s a shame nobody has been able to do Amsterdam to London this year it’s been delayed for quite some time.

Yes, I was supposed to be going there and back on the direct services this month.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Eventually that's the plan indeed, but not really possible until expansion of Amsterdam Zuid station has been completed. Currently the station is already quite heavily used with 28 trains per hour on just four tracks, so there's little space to add the international trains as these will use the platform longer (to check if everyone has disembarked). Securing the platform prior to arrival of a London-bound Eurostar is even completely impossible in the current situation.

And also quite a challenge: there is a "rear entrance" to Watergraafsmeer maintenance/cleaning yard branching off at Diemen Zuid, but the Diemen Zuid - Watergraafsmeer curve is single track and trains from Amsterdam Zuid will have to intersect the tracks from Weesp -> Schiphol on which 10 trains per hour pass.
Also the so-called Zuidasdok project, involving building a tunnel for the A10 motorway with the enlarged train/metro station on top, has been delayed as contracts with the builders have been cancelled as they wanted compensation for significant additional costs.

As long as Amsterdam Central has not been rebuilt to widen the currently very narrow platforms international trains will be able to start and end from there. When the rebuild of Amsterdam Central is finished however, platform 15 which houses the Eurostar terminal will no longer be available. This is due to the fact that tracks 14 and 15 are situated on an old bridge which runs trough the station (when looking carefully one can recognise this from the tunnels), therefore it's not possible to move track 15 when platform 14 is widened.

Sounds a bit like when Eurostar used Waterloo first before moving to St. Pancras. Shame they won't be able to stay at Amsterdam Centraal though which must be more convenient for the City Centre and interchanges with connecting services.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

According to Seat 61's Twitter, one service each way has appeared on Eurostar's website from mid-July.

Thank you, I shall have a look. Although I don't plan to go abroad for a while.

 

[paul1609]

Shame that without Ashford stops its still quicker to drive to Amsterdam from most of Kent

 

[cle]

Zuid needs a lot of work to be ready for this. Yes the area is booming, but the station itself is a fairly simple set of island platforms for a lot of through trains. A lot.

Even adding another pair doesn't detract from it a being loud, grim, wind-swift location with no 'terminal' building as such. They'd need to be much longer too. Even Thalys isn't there yet, and while the new plans address the weather and road, it still reads very much like a station for throughput and transfers - and not a destination. More like a Stratford in London.

 

[DanielB]

Shame they won't be able to stay at Amsterdam Centraal though which must be more convenient for the City Centre and interchanges with connecting services.

It depends on what your actual destination is. Amsterdam Zuid is actually not extremely far away from the City Centre at all, the distance from Centraal and Zuid to the Rijksmuseum is the same for example, and nowadays there are excellent connections from Zuid to the City Centre with metro 52.
The same applies to interchanges with connecting services: Amsterdam Centraal is actually only convenient for destinations in the province North-Holland and some stations in greater Amsterdam. The main Intercity corridors to the northern and eastern parts of The Netherlands run via the Zuidtak (the southern part of the Amsterdam railway ring), so for these destinations changing at Zuid is the best option. For Utrecht and further to the south frequent connections exist from both Zuid and Centraal, although one should preferably change from Eurostar to domestic trains in Rotterdam when travelling to those destinations as it saves you a huge detour.

But apart from the connections: Amsterdam Centraal is indeed a much prettier station to arrive at than the noisy and windy Amsterdam Zuid. It's a pity Eurostar can't call at Schiphol Airport as all connections possible at Amsterdam Zuid are possible there as well. Actually, I'm as much as possible trying to avoid changing at Amsterdam Zuid on domestic journeys and prefer to travel onwards to change at Schiphol despite having to change platforms there. Just because Amsterdam Zuid is such an unpleasant station.

 

[Peter Kelford]

It doesn't matter if it's 3h30, 3h40 or 4 hours. To be fair what is most important to get more passengers is:
1] Business Premier offering for premium travellers.
2] Direct services from Amsterdam to London free from complications.

 

[cle]

It doesn't matter if it's 3h30, 3h40 or 4 hours. To be fair what is most important to get more passengers is:
1] Business Premier offering for premium travellers.
2] Direct services from Amsterdam to London free from complications.

I think a lot of factors matter, and it's very subjective which ones tip the balance for an individual.

The difference between 3h30 and 4h is definitely one of them, it's naive to think not. Four hours 'sounds' a lot longer when socialized than 'three hours, X' - journey time might be the first thing people wonder if exploring the notion of switching to the train.

Most normal folks won't do SWOT analysis or granular pros/cons like we do here - it's "how long and what's the cost."

But yes BP offering helps (with excellent, free wifi - for productive time) - and of course sorting the customs/return leg procedure, which is happening imminently, so we can and should consider actioned, when talking future. That locked off platform and secure area is another mark against Zuid (I just don't see it happening, even in future). Metro 52 is fantastic as well, a real game changer.

 

[paul1609]

It doesn't matter if it's 3h30, 3h40 or 4 hours. To be fair what is most important to get more passengers is:
1] Business Premier offering for premium travellers.
2] Direct services from Amsterdam to London free from complications.

I suspect the reality based on the London to Scotland market is that as you approach 4 hours a massive percentage of the premium market will be on flights from London City.

 

[Ianno87]

Most normal folks won't do SWOT analysis or granular pros/cons like we do here - it's "how long and what's the cost."

And, for a relatively infrequent service like Amsterdam (2-3 trains per day); "does the timing of the train suit me"?

 

[92002]

The real deciding factor is door to door timings and fares, in comparison to other modes of getting there.

 

[ivanhoe]

Going to be a hard market to grow, given the number of flights from London and especially the Regions.

 

[Bald Rick]

Going to be a hard market to grow, given the number of flights from London and especially the Regions.

But London - Paris *was* the busiest international air route in the world, until Eurostar and HS1 came along.

 

[Chester1]

Going to be a hard market to grow, given the number of flights from London and especially the Regions.

Eurostar's long term goal for the route is 5tpd. They were upto 3tpd without a direct Amsterdam-London service.

 

[ivanhoe]

2w

But London - Paris *was* the busiest international air route in the world, until Eurostar and HS1 came along.

With respect, there’s a hell of a difference between market share to Paris and market share to Amsterdam. I wish it well, but it’s not exactly a goer for most people outside of London who will continue to use their flights from regional airports to Amsterdam. I’m lucky, in as much my train to London goes straight to St Pancras. That’s 2.5 hours before the train leaves St Pancras(1.40 Loughborough to St Pancras, and allowing 50 mins check in time. )That is same time as getting to Brum Airport and the flight and possibly fast train into Amsterdam. If you’re living in the South East, it’s just another option for you. Let’s not kid ourselves that this is going to be an easy ride for Eurostar. Unless, COVID is a real game changer in peoples travel habits. We will see!

 

[paul1609]

But London - Paris *was* the busiest international air route in the world, until Eurostar and HS1 came along.

London and Paris are 2 global cities. Amsterdam whilst very quaint has a population (area) of around 2.4 million about the same as Greater Manchester.
If the journeytime was just over 2 hours maybe Eurostar could capture significant market share, 3 hr 40 plus check in no chance unless external factors change.
Pricing already suggests Eurostar are either buying market share at an uneconomic price or are ripping off Paris customers.

 

[Bald Rick]

I didn’t explain myself.

Just before the tunnel opened, London - Paris was the busiest international city pair in the world for air traffic. When the tunnel opened, the original journey time was well over 3 hours, for some trains nearly 3h30. Eurostar quickly took market share, and with the progressive opening of HS1 took more. There are, of course, still plenty of flights from London to Paris, as well as lots from the regions.

London- Amsterdam is currently the second busiest international route within Europe, second only to London - Dublin. Almost 5 million people fly London to Amsterdam annually; and whilst I don’t have the data I’d be willing to bet that that is more than flew London - Paris in 1993.

Amsterdam is a different market to Paris - more transfer traffic at Schiphol for starters. However, subject to ‘normal’ returning, Eurostar will have no difficulty filling 4-5 trains a day (or, rather, 5 half trains) within a couple of years. That would give them about 20-25% market share if the market didn’t grow.

Whilst it is clearly different, LNERs market share of London - Edinburgh is well over 30%, on a typical 4h30 timing, albeit with a much more frequent service.

 

[BahrainLad]

Another curve ball to throw in here is hand luggage restrictions for aviation when flying does come back...I have already seen mutterings about actively limiting what passengers will be able to take on board with them vs putting in the hold. Not being able to use (or even carry) a laptop onto an aircraft is another vote in favour of the train for certain types of traveller.

 

[cle]

London and Paris are 2 global cities. Amsterdam whilst very quaint has a population (area) of around 2.4 million about the same as Greater Manchester.
If the journeytime was just over 2 hours maybe Eurostar could capture significant market share, 3 hr 40 plus check in no chance unless external factors change.
Pricing already suggests Eurostar are either buying market share at an uneconomic price or are ripping off Paris customers.

This is quite an old-fashioned view of Amsterdam. The quaint, tourist element is just one part.

It is emerging as the next global business hub in Europe. It is a lot more international than Paris and less sector-specific than Frankfurt. Better English spoken too - but worse food!

Many multinationals are relocating there, and some companies always had their EU HQs there (Nike, Netflix). Post-Brexit, this is going to grow even more. I work there a lot and would advise anyone to forget their old impressions of Amsterdam - it will Europe's second city before long. Paris will always be Paris (for good and bad - it is too French to act as a great cultural crossroads) - but Amsterdam is a lot more modern, connected and global.

 

[paul1609]

This is quite an old-fashioned view of Amsterdam. The quaint, tourist element is just one part.

It is emerging as the next global business hub in Europe. It is a lot more international than Paris and less sector-specific than Frankfurt. Better English spoken too - but worse food!

Many multinationals are relocating there, and some companies always had their EU HQs there (Nike, Netflix). Post-Brexit, this is going to grow even more. I work there a lot and would advise anyone to forget their old impressions of Amsterdam - it will Europe's second city before long. Paris will always be Paris (for good and bad - it is too French to act as a great cultural crossroads) - but Amsterdam is a lot more modern, connected and global.

I think you are reading too many Amsterdam City promotional leaflets. Netflixs EMA HQ in Amsterdam employees would comfortably fit on one Eurostar.
Amsterdam may well be expanding but it remains the capital of whats a peripheral (if likeable enough from a British perspective) nation in Europe.
Realistically its not in the top ten European Business Hubs let alone competing for the second spot.

 

[BahrainLad]

List of EU metropolitan areas by GDP - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

^ shows the combined value of the Rotterdam and Amsterdam economies as the second largest in Europe behind Paris.

 

[Chester1]

The reintroduction of a daily Amsterdam service next month shows Eurostar is committed to the route. Hopefully we will see 3tpd direct in both directions this year and upto 5tpd by end of next year.

Edit: removed references to South of France service.