Anti-maskers given free roam to post

[yorksrob]

I needed a good chuckle today

 

[takno]

Even when what they say is outright lies? Go on argue that

Free speech has its limits

There's a difference between outright lies and taking a different position in a perfect reasonable and well-contested scientific debate.

I'm sorry that you appear to have got the wrong end of the stick, although it's not entirely surprising considering some of the nonsense that's appearing in the press. There's really nothing misleading, inaccurate or unreasonable in questioning the value of masks.

 

[bramling]

It’s utterly disgusting that such people can use this forum

If you don’t agree then no doubt you will be quite happy to articulate a convincing case why - in your opinion - such people are wrong.

In any case, masks are history now in many settings, so time to move on. Meanwhile there’s always the option for proper filtering masks for those who feel they need protection from others.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Even when what they say is outright lies? Go on argue that

Free speech has its limits

Not the person you were responding to, but challenge accepted.

Free speech is exactly that. Anyone is entitled to say anything they like, to anyone, in any location and at any time. Anything less than that is censorship - either self-imposed or mandated by, eg, government. Equally, if not more, important is the right for someone to NOT speak freely. I can choose to remain silent, that is part of free speech (or, more accurately, free expression).

If you don't like someone using their right to free expression, use your own right to free expression and debate them. With facts. Opting to ban them usually means your argument (or arguing skills) are weak.

 

[roversfan2001]

This forum is like a far right one. Quite appalling

Baseless accusation, as to be expected from someone clearly so unstable.

Yours,
A Labour voter and former member.

 

[fireftrm]

ISO I need to provide the endless amounts of scientific evidence yet they are free to spout lies? But, yes I will - I’ll start with the latest studies which show that makes wearing reduced the speltwad of coronavirus by 50% - ONS

 

[Scotrail12]

ISO I need to provide the endless amounts of scientific evidence yet they are free to spout lies? But, yes I will - I’ll start with the latest studies which show that makes wearing reduced the speltwad of coronavirus by 50% - ONS

A lot of people have done their homework and researched it rather than just pulling arguments out of thin air.

 

[Richard Scott]

ISO I need to provide the endless amounts of scientific evidence yet they are free to spout lies? But, yes I will - I’ll start with the latest studies which show that makes wearing reduced the speltwad of coronavirus by 50% - ONS

Please enlighten us and provide a link to said studies. They need to be peer reviewed to have any scientific value.

 

[fireftrm]

But hey please tell us how 5G spreads the virus, the vaccine is magnetic and causes you to grow limbs, Rail Forums will be delighted and not stop you

 

[Failed Unit]

ISO I need to provide the endless amounts of scientific evidence yet they are free to spout lies? But, yes I will - I’ll start with the latest studies which show that makes wearing reduced the speltwad of coronavirus by 50% - ONS

If masks work that well, why are we seeing so many cases at the moment? Why can’t we see a drop in the numbers when they were introduced last year?

 

[Scotrail12]

But hey please tell us how 5G spreads the virus, the vaccine is magnetic and causes you to grow limbs, Rail Forums will be delighted and not stop you

I think any conspiracies of that level would be debunked on here.

 

[Failed Unit]

But hey please tell us how 5G spreads the virus, the vaccine is magnetic and causes you to grow limbs, Rail Forums will be delighted and not stop you

The vaccine actually contains a semi-conductor used to track you. That is why it is impossible to get lots of consumer electronics at the moment. Source D Duck, Orlando. (Disclaimer this is not true)

 

[roversfan2001]

But hey please tell us how 5G spreads the virus, the vaccine is magnetic and causes you to grow limbs, Rail Forums will be delighted and not stop you

Another locktivist favourite, a good old strawman argument. Carry on, this is hilarious.

 

[superalbs]

Pro-maskers given free roam to post​

It’s utterly disgusting that such people can use this forum.

Looks a bit daft now, doesn't it?

 

[takno]

But hey please tell us how 5G spreads the virus, the vaccine is magnetic and causes you to grow limbs, Rail Forums will be delighted and not stop you

I don't recall anybody saying any of those things on this forum, and if they did them I'm sure that pretty much everyone would have pointed out how absurd they were. That's how free speech and rational debate work.

Masks are absolutely nothing to do with any of that fringe nonsense, which is why we continue to have a lively debate on them.

 

[yorkie]

Even when what they say is outright lies? Go on argue that

Free speech has its limits

If you think someone is lying, you have two choices:
1) you can challenge them - this must be done in a constructive way
2) you can report the post - if you think the post breaks any rules.

But take a look at this post; do you consider the member of SAGE to be lying?

This forum is like a far right one. Quite appalling

The forum is politically neutral.

Individual moderators are entitled to their own opinions; they might be left or right leaning. I consider myself left leaning, but how do you define left?

I consider myself to be liberal in terms of human rights and consider mandatory mask wearing to be overly authoritarian. I am also extremely concerned at the rights of people with anxieties, medical conditions and hidden disabilities, which are infringed by mandatory masks. I do not see this as a left vs right matter at all.

If you want to accuse me of being too libertarian in terms of civil liberties, then that's fine, feel free to make that accusation, but if I am deemed to be 'right wing', I'd love to know what definition of right wing I meet!

But hey please tell us how 5G spreads the virus, the vaccine is magnetic and causes you to grow limbs, Rail Forums will be delighted and not stop you

Has anyone actually made such claims?

If they did, we'd have a choice whether to remove them or retain them. Depending on how it's worded, and whether any replies had already been submitted before the post was reported to us, I'd be tempted to allow them to stand on the basis that the disinformation would be robustly challenged.

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer when it comes to disinformation; if we delete it we could be accused of stifling free speech (though there is no right to free speech on any website, per se) and we also could be deleting some excellent responses/rebuttals. But if we allow the disinformation to stand, we could be accused of being a site that allows disinformation. Therefore, we'd have to treat each case on its own merits. We may not always make the best decision, but we will try.

 

[py_megapixel]

Shall we start asking the moderators to ban people who prefer coach travel from using the forum, because they must be inherently anti-railway?

I feel like that's the kind of level we're on now.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Didn't "anti-vaxxer" concerns prove true on Astrazenica blood clot risks which lead to an actual change in NHS policy, leading to under 40s getting the Pfizer instead?

If that was all swept under the carpet, instead of being public, then trust in this vaccine system would of collapsed to zero. Luckily the government has been transparent on risks and deaths from the jab, and that compares as a minor risk compared to the virus.
We all have a choice if we want to be injected or not, that is a good thing. I had my 1st jab, it gave me head aches, severe cramp, and tiredness for a week, but I'm okay now, there's not much to worry about jab wise. Having it or not won't make much difference for most under 60s.

Imagine if the government said tomorrow morning that all Flat-Earth theories were illegal and banned from everywhere...
The public would not forget about the nonsense theory, they would instead feel that there might be some truth to it.

 

[LOL The Irony]

anti-maskers deserve nothing

Yeah, this is quite the slippery slope you're on here pal.

This forum is like a far right one. Quite appalling

I can assure you that after almost 4k postings, this forum is not far right.

But hey please tell us how 5G spreads the virus, the vaccine is magnetic and causes you to grow limbs, Rail Forums will be delighted and not stop you

Via the bill gates designed google/amazon microchips in vaccines, of course.*

Didn't "anti-vaxxer" concerns prove true on Astrazenica blood clot risks which lead to an actual change in NHS policy, leading to under 40s getting the Pfizer instead?

If that was all swept under the carpet, instead of being public, then trust in this vaccine system would of collapsed to zero. Luckily the government has been transparent on risks and deaths from the jab, and that compares as a minor risk compared to the virus.
We all have a choice if we want to be injected or not, that is a good thing. I had my 1st jab, it gave me head aches, severe cramp, and tiredness for a week, but I'm okay now, there's not much to worry about jab wise. Having it or not won't make much difference for most under 60s.

Pretty much this. It's good that these issues were found and reported on so to prevent serious health problems that could result in death.

Imagine if the government said tomorrow morning that all Flat-Earth theories were illegal and banned from everywhere...

Again, this.

*Caution, this may have been said in jest. Authoritarians and lockdown lovers be advised.

 

[yorkie]

Didn't "anti-vaxxer" concerns prove true on Astrazenica blood clot risks which lead to an actual change in NHS policy, leading to under 40s getting the Pfizer instead?

This is an example where if someone said they believed the vaccine was not worth getting due to a risk of blood clots, I'd probably be inclined to let a post of that nature stand (providing it's in a suitable thread and not off topic etc) on the basis that it could be rebutted.

I'd argue that the risk of blood clots is extremely low, though not zero. But the alternative of not being vaccinated is almost certainly to be infected with Sars-CoV-2 as it is now endemic. While most people are asymptomatic or have mild symptoms, anyone who is into betting (or simply making rational choices based on probabilities!) would get the vaccine on the basis that the chances of blood clots through natural infection in an unvaccinated individual are far higher than the chances of blood clots through the vaccine (both risks are low)

Imagine if the government said tomorrow morning that all Flat-Earth theories were illegal and banned from everywhere...
The public would not forget about the nonsense theory, they would instead feel that there might be some truth to it.

I was once on a train where a Flat Earther handed out leaflets, between Inverness and Wick/Thurso; we had an interesting conversation and asked them some challenging questions and in the end they gave up. It was actually quite amusing

 

[hst43102]

Even when what they say is outright lies?

Maybe like the things a certain user @fireftrm has been saying recently?

Where's your evidence that:

- masks are miraculously lifesaving, and essential?
- this forum is Far Right? Really?

 

[yorkie]

One of the problems with masks (and indeed other restrictions, such as lockdowns) is that, right from the very start, some people on the authoritarian left tried to portray it as a left vs right matter, when it's actually on the authoritarian vs libertarian axis.

This explains why so many people have come to feel politically homeless; this has all been discussed on other threads, incidentally, I will try to find a link...

Edit: the most relevant thread is this one:

Personal Political Beliefs : Has the pandemic made you move further left or right?

I've just been reading the interesting thread about the left/right responses to Covid, and I was thinking about how this past year has changed my values and beliefs. Previously, I would have considered myself centre-right, and I voted Conservative in the last election. In some ways I've moved...

www.railforums.co.uk

And some other threads where this cropped up:

Public Opinion on Lockdowns

I've not seen any stats, but I wonder whether there is a notable difference in view between those who can work at home / are furloughed, and those whose job means that some or all of the time they are having to attend a workplace?

www.railforums.co.uk

Return to Education

First sign of some children in wales going back to school in wales directly after half term! Considering their low covid rates, surely some even lower areas in Wales could return now? Covid in Wales: Youngest set to return to primary schools from 22 February...

www.railforums.co.uk

Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

Any party which brings in or supports (and i include abstaining) this medical fascism will be dead to me, forever. It does appear that quite a number of us will be politically homeless after this. These are mad times. I'm a supporter of the vaccine but not for domestic restrictions. People...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[hst43102]

One of the problems with masks is that, right from the very start, some people on the authoritarian left tried to portray it as a left vs right matter, when it's actually on the authoritarian vs libertarian axis.

To be fair I think that's a very American way of looking at it - masks have become such a political status symbol over there and it appears to have spread over here.
I started a thread about political homelessness here : https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...c-made-you-move-further-left-or-right.213323/

 

[fireftrm]

Masks reduce the virus spread, fact

 

[hst43102]

Masks reduce the virus spread, fact

Source please!

 

[yorkie]

To be fair I think that's a very American way of looking at it - masks have become such a political status symbol over there and it appears to have spread over here

The key difference is that it's become a Democrat vs Republican thing over there; here it's much more nuanced and complex.

Masks reduce the virus spread, fact

FFP2/3 masks do prevent virus particles from spreading, I agree.

However the standard flimsy loose-fitting masks that complied with mask mandates do not, according to a member of SAGE:

Cloth face masks are 'comfort blankets' that do little to curb Covid spread, Scientist warns

Dr Colin Axon warned some cloth masks have gaps that are invisible to the naked eye, but are 5000 times the size of viral Covid particles

www.telegraph.co.uk

Dr Colin Axon warned some cloth masks have gaps that are invisible to the naked eye, but are 500,000 times the size of viral Covid particles

Standard face coverings are just "comfort blankets" that do little to reduce the spread of Covid particles, a scientist advising Sage on ventilation has said.

Robert Dingwall, who is a member of Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Modelling (SPI-M), which reports to Sage, stated:

Experts divided on whether masks are needed after July 19

Experts appear divided on whether people in England should be asked to continue to wear facemasks after July 19.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

Robert Dingwall, professor of sociology at Nottingham Trent University, said: “The benefits of masks have always been uncertain because the quality of the evidence in both directions is so weak.

“Any benefit has probably been quite small, or it would have been obvious even from weak studies, and needs to be offset by the psychological impact on population fear and anxiety, on children’s learning and interactions with adults, on people with communication issues, and on the substantial number of adults who cannot wear masks because of underlying health conditions or other disorders, including previous trauma from assaults or abuse or worse

“In my opinion it is a positive step to make mask-wearing voluntary.”

A study, reported in this BBC article, found flimsy loose fitting masks did not protect against Sars-CoV-2 infection, whereas FFP3 masks did:

Covid: Masks upgrade cuts infection risk, research finds

Wearing a high grade FFP3 mask can almost entirely protect health workers from Covid, research finds.

www.bbc.co.uk

Wearing a high grade mask known as an FFP3 can provide up to 100% protection.
By contrast, there is a far greater chance of staff wearing standard issue surgical masks catching the virus.
[Standard] masks are relatively flimsy and loose-fitting and are not meant to screen out infectious aerosols - tiny virus particles that can linger in the air and are now widely accepted as a source of coronavirus infection.

The study found high levels of infection with standard masks, which was 47 times higher than when effective masks were worn. Obviously we don't have a 'control group' with no masks, but the results are very damning for the standard, flimsy surgical masks.

 

[Richard Scott]

Source please!

I'm still awaiting the reply to my request for that!

 

[Cowley]

And that’s enough of that I think!