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Any thoughts on the CAM (Cambridge Autonomous Metro)?

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rebmcr

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Has Cambridge a bike hire system since ofo withdrew?

Not much cop if you live outside the city though!

Another company started up e-scooters and e-bikes as a trial - Voi.

With such a high levels of bike ownership a hire scheme never took off. The main problem the city has is of thousands of people who work in the city but can't afford to live there so have to commute in from the likes of Newmarket, Ely and Cambourne.

I have not heard of Voi. I will search.
As someone who is lucky enough to afford living in the city, I can confirm that Voi's e-scooters seem extraordinarily popular, especially in the evenings. I've never seen anyone riding one of the bikes, though!

There is a van that does rounds around midnight, swapping fresh batteries for depleted ones.
 
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Ianno87

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I wonder how much was spent on the CAM proposals.

At least £2.5m, reportedly

I recall seeing £4m.

As someone who is lucky enough to afford living in the city, I can confirm that Voi's e-scooters seem extraordinarily popular, especially in the evenings. I've never seen anyone riding one of the bikes, though!

There is a van that does rounds around midnight, swapping fresh batteries for depleted ones.

Yes, they are surprisingly popular. And, thankfully, actually generally seem to be ridden responsibly the majority of the time.

I think it's worth figuring out what the goals of the project are. Urban transportation within cambridge, or inter-urban transportation to the surrounding towns/cities?

It's a bit of both, and very important to point out the distinction

For urban transportation, bus priority, better bike infrastructure is fairly low hanging fruit things that can be done. Then a light rail system would probably make sense, perhaps low-floor with your NET style trams.

Inter-urban transportation can be done by bus or by rail. Extending the busways is probably the cheapest option for this, if you want to reach most communities in your $2bn budget.

A mix of busways, plus developing the park and ride sites as part of this. Possibly also developing the "county" bus routes to run more frequently, and also operate evenings and Sundays too (most don't)

Cambridge's basic "problem" is that it's catchment area is scattered around a wide range of disparate villages (where housing is much cheaper), which individually can't (in general) sustain commercial bus services, but combined lead to a significant traffic flow into the city.
 

ac6000cw

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I think Cambridge park and rides sensibly allow you to pay only to park and then cycle onnwards. Oxford and Norwich did not when I tried lastly. Bike hire from some P+R is an obvious good thing to try, also from outer bus stops and train stations.
All the Cambridge P + R parking is free for up to 18 hours. There are five P + R sites, ranging in size from about 800 parking spaces to nearly 1500 (around 5000 in total), all with cycle racks and some cycle lockers (but those have to be rented). See https://cambridgeparkandride.info/index.shtml for more info.

In my experience the P + R system is well used 7 days a week. Traffic congestion, limited parking capacity in the city centre and the high cost of it are real disincentives to driving into it, so the P + R system has been well used since it started (quite a long time ago now).

Cambridge's basic "problem" is that it's catchment area is scattered around a wide range of disparate villages (where housing is much cheaper), which individually can't (in general) sustain commercial bus services, but combined lead to a significant traffic flow into the city.
I agree - and those bus services have declined over the years (I've lived in the area for 40+ years).

It's that problem that really needs sorting out, but it's going to need significant on-going subsidy to make it happen - which of course isn't a 'sexy' thing to talk about if you are a politician, compared to a pie-in-the-sky inner urban transport system...
 

Ianno87

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All the Cambridge P + R parking is free for up to 18 hours. There are five P + R sites, ranging in size from about 800 parking spaces to nearly 1500 (around 5000 in total), all with cycle racks and some cycle lockers (but those have to be rented). See https://cambridgeparkandride.info/index.shtml for more info.

Plus the sites on the Busway to St Ives.

In my experience the P + R system is well used 7 days a week. Traffic congestion, limited parking capacity in the city centre and the high cost of it are real disincentives to driving into it, so the P + R system has been well used since it started (quite a long time ago now).

They've picked up very well since retain reopened (when the P&R routes were reinstated). Weekend car traffic has been awful.
 

stuu

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Good that this nonsense has been cancelled. However I think the very basic idea of a tunnel for buses makes much more sense for a city of Cambridge's size. If it had just been designed as a route for single decker guided buses using the same system as the existing busway then all the technology risk/expense would be avoided. The city and surroundings would all benefit immediately, rather than just one route which would be the case with trams, as I can't imagine the Treasury coughing up for a network in one go.
 

Ianno87

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Good that this nonsense has been cancelled. However I think the very basic idea of a tunnel for buses makes much more sense for a city of Cambridge's size. If it had just been designed as a route for single decker guided buses using the same system as the existing busway then all the technology risk/expense would be avoided. The city and surroundings would all benefit immediately, rather than just one route which would be the case with trams, as I can't imagine the Treasury coughing up for a network in one go.

Diesel engines running in a tunnel? Sounds atrocious for air quality for the passengers.
 

Bletchleyite

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All the Cambridge P + R parking is free for up to 18 hours. There are five P + R sites, ranging in size from about 800 parking spaces to nearly 1500 (around 5000 in total), all with cycle racks and some cycle lockers (but those have to be rented). See https://cambridgeparkandride.info/index.shtml for more info.

"Pay within the first hour"...that's a nice fine-generating scam. Why can one not pay at any time while still valid, e.g. on realising one is going to be more than 18 hours or deciding to stay an additional day? Every other RingGo car park I have ever used allows extension of the period right up until expiry.

Edit: Oh, possibly RingGo can't deal with a variable charging period, just thought.


Diesel engines running in a tunnel? Sounds atrocious for air quality for the passengers.

Electric buses. That needs to be the aim within a shortish period of time anyway - we need full electric to work its way through our bus system at least as fast as low-floor did in the late 90s.
 
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ashkeba

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Good that this nonsense has been cancelled. However I think the very basic idea of a tunnel for buses makes much more sense for a city of Cambridge's size.
Would an exclusive bus corridor like in some French and Spanish towns deliver most of the benefit without the expense and engineering challenge of tunnelling through what is probably wet fen ground? A tunnel would require routes reorganising to one corridor to use it anyway.
 

stuu

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Diesel engines running in a tunnel? Sounds atrocious for air quality for the passengers.
Why would anyone suggest that?

Would an exclusive bus corridor like in some French and Spanish towns deliver most of the benefit without the expense and engineering challenge of tunnelling through what is probably wet fen ground? A tunnel would require routes reorganising to one corridor to use it anyway.
The feasibility reports showed the ground is clay beneath the wet surface, so good for tunnelling. Bus routes run on a limited number of roads now, the main corridor is broadly north-south through through the city
 
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ashkeba

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Bus routes run on a limited number of roads now, the main corridor is broadly north-south through through the city
The buses do not have exclusive use of much of it, maybe none, and seem to be split across most of the roads into the city. Victoria avenue is slightly more intensive use with four Citi services and three busway services but Citi 4 then goes east to Camborne crossing Citi 5 and 6 who use Bridge Street and Jesus Lane instead. Also there is the distraction of Grafton Centre Bus Station which remains open when I thought it was to be closed with services sent through New Square instead.

I do not think many would look at the map of Cambridge bus routes and identify an obvious central trunk corridor.
 

MarkyT

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Diesel engines running in a tunnel? Sounds atrocious for air quality for the passengers.
Hybrid buses, on battery in the tunnel surely, or better still trolley buses with off wire battery range.
 

ashkeba

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This is the Stagecoach city network which has a pretty clear north-south focus
It crudely uses a large circle over the city centre to hide there is no north-south focus route, plus there are the park and rides and some services from other companies like Whippet.
 

ac6000cw

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Full battery buses. If TfL can do it, any city can.
There have been a couple of double-deck battery buses (BYD ADL Enviro400EV) running on trial in the Cambridge area since February last year. I don't know what plans there are to expand the fleet.

Certainly switching the P + R buses (which are mostly a dedicated, specially liveried fleet) to battery would boost the attractiveness of the P + R system.
 

camflyer

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It crudely uses a large circle over the city centre to hide there is no north-south focus route, plus there are the park and rides and some services from other companies like Whippet.

One of the problems with the P&R is that the services stop too early in the evening. I think it's 8pm Mon to Sat and 6pm on Sunday. No use if you are going to a gig at the Corn Exchange or out for dinner so you have to pay a ransom to park at the Grand Arcade though I usually save a bit of money by parking at Queen Anne Terrace and walking the rest.
 

Ianno87

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This is the Stagecoach city network which has a pretty clear north-south focus

Not really - it's just the lack of citi routes to the west side of the city (which is the relatively lightly populated Newnham - served by the hourly 18 - and the West Cambridge university site - served by the Whippet Universal).

And the citi 4 is a relatively light colour

Plus, as others have said, Park and Rides are excluded from the map)
 

Jozhua

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It's a bit of both, and very important to point out the distinction

A mix of busways, plus developing the park and ride sites as part of this. Possibly also developing the "county" bus routes to run more frequently, and also operate evenings and Sundays too (most don't)

Cambridge's basic "problem" is that it's catchment area is scattered around a wide range of disparate villages (where housing is much cheaper), which individually can't (in general) sustain commercial bus services, but combined lead to a significant traffic flow into the city.
That makes sense. Being a relatively flat part of the country, just providing good biking infrastructure to those park and rides, alongside parking would make a lot of sense.

I frequently use the new e-scooters for last mile trips up here in Salford! They are also great to use on dedicated cycle routes.

Good that this nonsense has been cancelled. However I think the very basic idea of a tunnel for buses makes much more sense for a city of Cambridge's size. If it had just been designed as a route for single decker guided buses using the same system as the existing busway then all the technology risk/expense would be avoided. The city and surroundings would all benefit immediately, rather than just one route which would be the case with trams, as I can't imagine the Treasury coughing up for a network in one go.
I like this idea, it would probably be similar to the Adelaide guided busway. Considering how much busway infrastructure already exists in Cambridge, it makes sense to expand on it. I'm sure with the use of articulated buses (with multiple doors) and smart fare payment, you could run a pretty efficient system.

For longer routes that need higher capacity, just extending some of the local rail network as a seperate project would probably make sense.
Diesel engines running in a tunnel? Sounds atrocious for air quality for the passengers.
I mean car tunnels exist, you just need a LOT of ventilation. It would almost certainly be electric buses anyway.
Would an exclusive bus corridor like in some French and Spanish towns deliver most of the benefit without the expense and engineering challenge of tunnelling through what is probably wet fen ground? A tunnel would require routes reorganising to one corridor to use it anyway.
I think with the tight, narrow streets, a tunnel could provide a lot of journey time benefits. It would probably be an underground BRT style thing.
Full battery buses. If TfL can do it, any city can.
I don't think it's a bad idea, but if there's an opportunity for in-motion charging, that might be worth looking at. Ultimately depends what the economics of it turns out to be. I think OLE provision on key corridors could be economic, but most manufacturers don't really have a modern mass-market solution for it. Old trolley designs aren't really suitable, but something that tracks two wires electronically would be quite resillient and likely require much less special training.

However, with an integrated system, bus charging could be quite easily worked into the bus stops. I can imagine it working quite well out at the P&R's, giving the buses say a 30 minute turnaround time, charging from an overhead connection whilst parked in the bays.
 

ashkeba

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I frequently use the new e-scooters for last mile trips up here in Salford! They are also great to use on dedicated cycle routes.
Is that legal?

I think with the tight, narrow streets, a tunnel could provide a lot of journey time benefits. It would probably be an underground BRT style thing.
It seems strange that citi 5 and 6 weave althrough the narrow streets near Round Church Corner only to then immediately cross the route of citi 4! It looks possible to focus most buses on Regent Street - Victoria Ave corridor with minimal change.
 

Ianno87

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Is that legal?


It seems strange that citi 5 and 6 weave althrough the narrow streets near Round Church Corner only to then immediately cross the route of citi 4! It looks possible to focus most buses on Regent Street - Victoria Ave corridor with minimal change.

Basically to avoid awkward turns at the Bridge Street/Castle Hill/Northampton Street crossroads, which is tight and heavily used by cyclists.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is that legal?

Yes. In trial cities the hire scooters can be used essentially wherever cycling is permitted (though in MK they say not on high speed main roads, though I can't see why you'd want to as the chance of death would be rather high, while most other cities don't have high speed main roads in the built up area).
 

ashkeba

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Basically to avoid awkward turns at the Bridge Street/Castle Hill/Northampton Street crossroads, which is tight and heavily used by cyclists.
So instead they use Bridge Street and Jesus Lane turns which are tight and heavily used by cyclists. I think one tight turn would be better than 3 or 4, plus it allows trunk bus route benefits.
 

Ianno87

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So instead they use Bridge Street and Jesus Lane turns which are tight and heavily used by cyclists. I think one tight turn would be better than 3 or 4, plus it allows trunk bus route benefits.

That, and the right turn from Northampton Street to Bridge Street can incur delay due to needing to wait for a gap in traffic (and blocking following traffic too)
 

CBlue

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So instead they use Bridge Street and Jesus Lane turns which are tight and heavily used by cyclists. I think one tight turn would be better than 3 or 4, plus it allows trunk bus route benefits.
During normal pre-pandemic times Victoria Avenue was often heavily congested, with tailbacks around the one-way system the other side of the river. Bridge Street has a bus and taxi gate which was supposed to allow buses to avoid congestion.

Where do you get "3 or 4" tight turns from? The only ones encountered are northbound at the top of Sidney St and Southbound at the round church. That makes one.
 

rebmcr

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Where do you get "3 or 4" tight turns from? The only ones encountered are northbound at the top of Sidney St and Southbound at the round church. That makes one.
Sounds like a description of the services which use King Street.
 

ashkeba

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That, and the right turn from Northampton Street to Bridge Street can incur delay due to needing to wait for a gap in traffic (and blocking following traffic too)
Government could reprogram the lights to stop all other traffic when a turning bus is detected, or maybe Victoria Street or Mount Pleasant could be used. This is the sort of detail which should be corrected after a central bus spine is chosen. The proposed CAM tunnel was not going to have any exit in the Huntingdon/Histon Road direction either, which suggests those services are better rerouted than others.

During normal pre-pandemic times Victoria Avenue was often heavily congested, with tailbacks around the one-way system the other side of the river. Bridge Street has a bus and taxi gate which was supposed to allow buses to avoid congestion.
That bus gate has not worked because more buses use Victoria Avenue than Bridge Street. Maybe Bridge Street should be selected instead of Victoria Avenue but whichever is selected should be closed to most other traffic. Cambridge government should grow a spine and pick one central bus spine and untangle bus and car routes.

Where do you get "3 or 4" tight turns from? The only ones encountered are northbound at the top of Sidney St and Southbound at the round church. That makes one.
I attempted to remember but it has been some time because of recent disruption. Now looking at a route map and satellite, I think northbound past the round church does 4 pretty slow tight turns: into King Street, Manor Street, Jesus Lane and Bridge Street, and southbound does 3: at round church, into Park Street and Jesus Lane. So maybe I was not wrong or maybe we disagree about what is a slow turn?
 

MikeWM

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That bus gate has not worked because more buses use Victoria Avenue than Bridge Street. Maybe Bridge Street should be selected instead of Victoria Avenue but whichever is selected should be closed to most other traffic. Cambridge government should grow a spine and pick one central bus spine and untangle bus and car routes.

The gate went in back in 1997, if I remember correctly, and at that point most of the bus routes from the 'north' did use Bridge Street.

About 10 years ago (?) Stagecoach decided to reroute the citi 1 and 2 buses to use Victoria Avenue instead. At the time it was fairly controversial because it meant that this side of the city centre and the Castle Hill/Chesterton Road area lost their direct bus service to the railway station and Addenbrookes.
 

rebmcr

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The proposed CAM tunnel was not going to have any exit in the Huntingdon/Histon Road direction either
I believe the portal near Cambridge North would have picked up the St Ives-bound Busway, which is Huntingdon-direction but indeed doesn't serve the Histon Road area.
 

ashkeba

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About 10 years ago (?) Stagecoach decided to reroute the citi 1 and 2 buses to use Victoria Avenue instead. At the time it was fairly controversial because it meant that this side of the city centre and the Castle Hill/Chesterton Road area lost their direct bus service to the railway station and Addenbrookes.
Do you remember if they gave reasons for that decision? I suspect serving New Square for the Grafton Centre area outweighed the loss of trade from more stops in the old centre and congestion on Victoria Avenue.

I believe the portal near Cambridge North would have picked up the St Ives-bound Busway, which is Huntingdon-direction but indeed doesn't serve the Histon Road area.
The slash was to indicate Huntingdon Road and Histon Road, not Huntingdon itself. I apologise for the confusing structure.
 

MikeWM

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Do you remember if they gave reasons for that decision? I suspect serving New Square for the Grafton Centre area outweighed the loss of trade from more stops in the old centre and congestion on Victoria Avenue.

Just this article (so it was 9 years ago, I wasn't far off when I guessed 10):

https://web.archive.org/web/2012032...uk/Home/52m-boost-for-bus-routes-23032012.htm
the Citi 1 and 2 services will be rerouted to use Victoria Avenue in both directions instead of the pinch point at Magdalene Street.

Magdalene Street is indeed a very nasty pinch point; nevertheless I thought this was a poor decision then in terms of where people actually want to go. Given I lived and worked in the area of Magdalene Street at the time, I suppose I wasn't entirely objective however!
 
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