Appalling Treatment by South Western Railway

[Coolzac]

You’ve used Firstly twice

Oh blast! I think I added a point but forgot to amend the next paragraph. Nevermind!

 

[Western Sunset]

As long as you didn't say "quite unique" or "very unique"...

 

[VauxhallandI]

Oh blast! I think I added a point but forgot to amend the next paragraph. Nevermind!

Sorry I only mentioned it as I thought it was a draft

 

[robbeech]

there is no promise to rebrief staff as to the validity of verbal permission and indeed they deny that such permission is even possible.

This is because :

.. because it neatly refuses to admit that the company were incorrect.

Getting the railway to admit to anything is like getting blood out of a stone, and even when you've finally got the blood out of it, what can you do with stone blood?

Unfortunately a lot of staff isn't very keen on issuing those vouchers and here we are.

I suspect a lot of them have never even heard of the existence of such things.

Discounts are only applied when purchased before boarding where a journey begins at a station with ticket purchasing facilities. I have to say, the station master was right when he said you were lucky not to be Penalty Fared. You could complain about the wrong advice given to you at Wandsworth, but it will be your word against his. Just remember allow time to purchase your tickets before boarding in future.

It's rather strange that someone would come to the thread so far in and provide such an anti passenger approach, an incorrect one at that.

National Rail Enquiries state that the ticket office is open from 06:40, so it would have been open. I do sympathise with the original poster, as this certainly isn't a passenger friendly way of doing business. However, there is no way I'd have boarded a train sans tix without written permission.

Another typical example of railway "can do no wrong" attidude. NRE (proven time and time again to be incorrect and outdated) is NOT a reliable source. I suspect had the data on NRE said the ticket office was CLOSED, but infact it was open it would have been the passengers' fault for not checking. This shows the railway's attitude towards passengers, picking data that suits.

How strange!

It's probable that after confirming we are aware of the discrepancy in the timings throughout the thread that we didn't need the screenshot telling us it should be open.

Absolutely. The difficulty comes with proving spoken permission was given though.

Or proving that it was not given.

If no written permission is required it shouldn't even be a question, unless the railway wants to make a big deal about it to provide a lower level of customer service. If the Railway has a problem with this, then they should change it so that written permission is mandatory. The problem is, whilst most staff would likely favour this, many of the staff with poor attitudes would just refuse permission to every request (regardless of the rules and laws).



The railway spits blood about passengers taking a "pay when challenged" approach when it comes to boarding without tickets etc. It is one of the most hypocritical parts about the entire railway.

 

[NoOnesFool]

My journey to Islip and back required me to go through many barriers so I clearly wasn't trying to fare evade or somehow short fare.

The barriers could have been open and without checking whether they were open or not, it's not adequate proof to staff that you had an intention to buy a ticket.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The barriers could have been open and without checking whether they were open or not, it's not adequate proof to staff that you had an intention to buy a ticket.

And the moon could be made of cheese. With all the CCTV and easy comms we have today it would be easy to sort in a jiffy but it would seem that would be too easy as well.

 

[BayPaul]

The barriers could have been open and without checking whether they were open or not, it's not adequate proof to staff that you had an intention to buy a ticket.

Once again, staff attitude encouraging potential passengers back onto the roads...

Because the railway might not have bothered to operate the barriers correctly, and can't be bothered to check if they did or not, it is the passenger's fault for not buying a ticket that the machine was unable to sell them, and for listening to a staff member who gave them advice that was ignored by the next staff member they encountered.

 

[AlterEgo]

The nub of this is twofold. One, verbal permission isn’t okay on SWR, which is fine, but staff need to issue the correct slips and not just hope the customer will be okay. Second, the machines need to retail tickets in good time to make the train.

That’s all there is to it. The second is much easier to fix than the first and makes most problems go away.

 

[AlterEgo]

The barriers could have been open and without checking whether they were open or not, it's not adequate proof to staff that you had an intention to buy a ticket.

Perhaps the staff member our OP encountered might have followed the policy outlined in SWR’s response then? That would have provided sufficient proof.

 

[clagmonster]

Discounts are only applied when purchased before boarding where a journey begins at a station with ticket purchasing facilities. I have to say, the station master was right when he said you were lucky not to be Penalty Fared. You could complain about the wrong advice given to you at Wandsworth, but it will be your word against his. Just remember allow time to purchase your tickets before boarding in future.

What do you propose in this case the passenger does? The ticket can't be purchased from the TVM until 10:00 - the train goes at 10:02. Given that doors may close 30 seconds before departure, that is 30 seconds to obtain the ticket, pass through the barrier, through the subway, up the stairs and onto the train. In my view, this makes the ticket essentially unavailable before boarding, so should be obtained at the first available opportunity, in this case Waterloo.

The previous train leaves Wandsworth Town at 09:55. Given we have established it is practically impossible to do the transaction in two minutes, I suggest that if the ticket were available at 09:53 and accepted by the barriers from 09:55, the issue would go away.

 

[NoOnesFool]

What do you propose in this case the passenger does? The ticket can't be purchased from the TVM until 10:00 - the train goes at 10:02. Given that doors may close 30 seconds before departure, that is 30 seconds to obtain the ticket, pass through the barrier, through the subway, up the stairs and onto the train. In my view, this makes the ticket essentially unavailable before boarding, so should be obtained at the first available opportunity, in this case Waterloo.

The previous train leaves Wandsworth Town at 09:55. Given we have established it is practically impossible to do the transaction in two minutes, I suggest that if the ticket were available at 09:53 and accepted by the barriers from 09:55, the issue would go away.

Personally, I'd have just bought a non-discounted ticket to Waterloo, but what's done is done. The main issue here is some TVMs not issuing tickets for travel later in the day. I believe that this has now been addressed with SWR snd they can now consider making this an option. I can't see it being too difficult to programme them for this, after all you can change the origin station so why not the time?!

 

[skyhigh]

Personally, I'd have just bought a non-discounted ticket to Waterloo, but what's done is done.

So you'd pay extra because the railway can't provide appropriate ticketing facilities?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I'd have just bought a non-discounted ticket to Waterloo, but what's done is done.

Why should a passenger pay more because the railway can't be bothered to provide the means of issuing the correct ticket?

 

[Haywain]

So you'd pay extra because the railway can't provide appropriate ticketing facilities?

I suppose one would hope that Waterloo would then sell the correct ticket using the refund/rebook process, but that is by no means certain and it shouldn't be down to the customer to spend time at the ticket window (and probably queuing for it first) mid-journey to get this sorted out.

 

[Starmill]

Personally, I'd have just bought a non-discounted ticket to Waterloo,

You would? In that case I've got some widgets to sell you. I'd like to sell you one, but charge you for two. But everyone else will only be charged for one. The price is higher for just you, because your name starts and ends in y.

But that's fair and sensible, because I suspect that you might be trying to steal my widgets so I need to check that you're honest.

I suppose one would hope that Waterloo would then sell the correct ticket using the refund/rebook process, but that is by no means certain and it shouldn't be down to the customer to spend time at the ticket window (and probably queuing for it first) mid-journey to get this sorted out.

More likely the customer would be refused onwards travel with an expired ticket, or even the ticket retained by the gates. Then they'd need to pay again and claim the additional amount back. Of course there's no guarantee that customer services will understand that first time either, and the customer might need to refer the matter to the Rail Ombudsman to get their £7.80 refunded, at considerable cost in time.

 

[Deafdoggie]

You would? In that case I've got some widgets to sell you. I'd like to sell you one, but charge you for two. But everyone else will only be charged for one. The price is higher for just you, because your name starts and ends in y.

But that's fair and sensible, because I suspect that you might be trying to steal my widgets so I need to check that you're honest.

I'd like to buy one please. I can buy online and collect them. But I live in Merseyside so you won't let me

 

[Coolzac]

The nub of this is twofold. One, verbal permission isn’t okay on SWR, which is fine, but staff need to issue the correct slips and not just hope the customer will be okay. Second, the machines need to retail tickets in good time to make the train.

That’s all there is to it. The second is much easier to fix than the first and makes most problems go away.

I agree, these are the two main issues. The only thing I would say is that verbal permission maybe given if your journey involves another TOC, in which case SWR should accept it.

But if its a journey wholly within the SWR network, and they always, 100%, give out written permission, then fine. But I'm not sure this will be the case.

I'll let everyone know the response to the email when I receive it.

 

[py_megapixel]

I'd like to buy one please. I can buy online and collect them. But I live in Merseyside so you won't let me

Or more accurately, "I live in Merseyside so some third party whose business I never thought this transaction was says I can't"

 

[Kite159]

Personally, I'd have just bought a non-discounted ticket to Waterloo, but what's done is done. The main issue here is some TVMs not issuing tickets for travel later in the day. I believe that this has now been addressed with SWR snd they can now consider making this an option. I can't see it being too difficult to programme them for this, after all you can change the origin station so why not the time?!

Judging by the TVM at Grateley, you used to be able to change the time on the same day (as I used it in the past when splitting at Basingstoke or Reading, where I could use my railcard), but the last time I tried to do it during the late summer it came up with an error saying it couldn't be done "at this time".

 

[Wolfie]

Personally, I'd have just bought a non-discounted ticket to Waterloo, but what's done is done. The main issue here is some TVMs not issuing tickets for travel later in the day. I believe that this has now been addressed with SWR snd they can now consider making this an option. I can't see it being too difficult to programme them for this, after all you can change the origin station so why not the time?!

So basically you wish to financially reward the railway for its poor behaviour. No chance. Litigation on every occasion looks more appealing by the moment.

 

[robbeech]

Perhaps the staff member our OP encountered might have followed the policy outlined in SWR’s response then? That would have provided sufficient proof.

Or the rules which do not say you have to and cannot be overridden by company policy in favour of the railway. But clearly providing written proof is by far the best way to deal with this.

What do you propose in this case the passenger does? The ticket can't be purchased from the TVM until 10:00 - the train goes at 10:02. Given that doors may close 30 seconds before departure, that is 30 seconds to obtain the ticket, pass through the barrier, through the subway, up the stairs and onto the train. In my view, this makes the ticket essentially unavailable before boarding, so should be obtained at the first available opportunity, in this case Waterloo.

The previous train leaves Wandsworth Town at 09:55. Given we have established it is practically impossible to do the transaction in two minutes, I suggest that if the ticket were available at 09:53 and accepted by the barriers from 09:55, the issue would go away.

Personally, I'd have just bought a non-discounted ticket to Waterloo, but what's done is done. The main issue here is some TVMs not issuing tickets for travel later in the day. I believe that this has now been addressed with SWR snd they can now consider making this an option. I can't see it being too difficult to programme them for this, after all you can change the origin station so why not the time?!

Of course you would, because passengers should be penalised for wanting to use the railway. What a hindrance.

I suppose one would hope that Waterloo would then sell the correct ticket using the refund/rebook process, but that is by no means certain and it shouldn't be down to the customer to spend time at the ticket window (and probably queuing for it first) mid-journey to get this sorted out.

I think we all know you'll be pushed to find anyone with the knowledge /training, the authorisation (real or make believe) or the inclination to put the effort in to do this. Hats off to the minority that would though, they are appreciated more than they'll ever know.

 

[Coolzac]

I have received a response from South Western Railway. I'm happy with receiving £15 worth of Rail vouchers which is more than I was owed, but frustrated they haven't addressed my points.

Particularly, I'm concerned that a) they haven't admitted that there staff at Waterloo broke the NRTC, b) they think that if the machines are broken you must find a guard and c) in this instance I wasn't owed a refund.

What should I do now? I want to escalate this further to have my points properly addressed. But I'm not sure I will get anywhere.

Apologies for the terrible quality of the photo, I don't have a scanner!

 

[Watershed]

I have received a response from South Western Railway. I'm happy with receiving £15 worth of Rail vouchers which is more than I was owed, but frustrated they haven't addressed my points.

Particularly, I'm concerned that a) they haven't admitted that there staff at Waterloo broke the NRTC, b) they think that if the machines are broken you must find a guard and c) in this instance I wasn't owed a refund.

What should I do now? I want to escalate this further to have my points properly addressed. But I'm not sure I will get anywhere.

Apologies for the terrible quality of the photo, I don't have a scanner!

Another predictably poor response. They just don't seem to get what the problem is!

Unfortunately, as they are offering you more compensation than you are owed, it's going to be difficult to proceed down any legal channels. So really your only avenue is to take it to the Ombudsman or to pursue it through political channels (e.g. raising it with your MP).

I fear you're unlikely to achieve the wider change which you are rightfully hoping for.

 

[PBarnesHST]

I have received a response from South Western Railway. I'm happy with receiving £15 worth of Rail vouchers which is more than I was owed, but frustrated they haven't addressed my points.

Particularly, I'm concerned that a) they haven't admitted that there staff at Waterloo broke the NRTC, b) they think that if the machines are broken you must find a guard and c) in this instance I wasn't owed a refund.

What should I do now? I want to escalate this further to have my points properly addressed. But I'm not sure I will get anywhere.

Apologies for the terrible quality of the photo, I don't have a scanner!

“He or She will then sell you the appropriate ticket“

Will they really…? I thought guards on SWR didn’t perform revenue duties…?

 

[T-Karmel]

“He or She will then sell you the appropriate ticket“

Will they really…? I thought guards on SWR didn’t perform revenue duties…?

Guards don't, Commercial Guards do. You only find out which one is on the train once you approach him and ask for a ticket.

 

[Dent]

Unfortunately, as they are offering you more compensation than you are owed, it's going to be difficult to proceed down any legal channels.

It does say that the vouchers are a "gesture of good will", which means they are not the refund which they owe and they still owe that refund.

 

[Watershed]

It does say that the vouchers are a "gesture of good will", which means they are not the refund which they owe and they still owe that refund.

If OP would like a cash refund, they are of course entitled to push for that. But I understand their concern is more with SWR's attitude that this is a "goodwill" gesture and that OP was ultimately in the wrong.

 

[island]

At some point the law of diminishing returns starts to kick in.

 

[Coolzac]

If OP would like a cash refund, they are of course entitled to push for that. But I understand their concern is more with SWR's attitude that this is a "goodwill" gesture and that OP was ultimately in the wrong.

Exactly, plus the fact that they are heaping most of the blame on the man on the barrier, and also part of the blame on myself. They have more than refunded me the amount owed so I'm not interested in any further compensation.

All I'm asking is that they obey the NRTC. Is that so hard to ask?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

All I'm asking is that they obey the NRTC. Is that so hard to ask?

It's easy to ask - but realistically you have very little leverage to get them to comply with what you want. You have been compensated for your inconvenience, so I don't see that you could meaningfully take them to (civil) court - there would be no wrong that the court could right.

In practical terms, now may be the time to quit: you have won your personal case, but you are unlikely to win the crusade.