APT return to running?

[Flying Snail]

I am sure if someone turned up at Crewe with a very large cheque and a plan involving the hiring of expert engineering teams to assess, manage and commission the sort of work required they would give it due consideration.

As no doubt the only people bringing up the subject are cranks and dreamers who can't afford to buy a Hornby APT let alone fund an enormously complicated project the heritage centre are more than correct in not entertaining the idea.

 

[Alanko]

Have Locomotive Services Limited peaked (no pun intended) yet? They seem to be good at getting projects over the line.

 

[zwk500]

Have Locomotive Services Limited peaked (no pun intended) yet? They seem to be good at getting projects over the line.

Their market is steam and dining, not preservation. And having recently splurged on quite a few new toys, I suspect Mr Hoskins is looking closely at the 'profits' section of his balance sheets before spending money of flights of fancy.
The APT wasnt exactly famed for Rolls Royce or Pullam levels of comfort!

 

[trebor79]

I don't know heaps about the APT, but having a windowless power car stuck somewhere in the consist seems a little unrefined? Could passengers creep through it (with earplugs in?) while the thing was in operation? Was the plan ultimately to improve this element of the design?

This was one of the issues which led to it's demise. 2 power cars were needed (with the technology of the time) to reach 155mph design speed. Originally the plan was to have them at either end, but then it was discovered that the two pantographs at opposite ends of the train would set up standings waves in the OLE at high speed and potentially cause dewirement. A 25KV bus line wasn't deemed feasible at the time (common as muck now of course) so the prototypes were produced with the power cars in the middle.
I believe it was forbidden for anyone to walk through them, which is why each half set had a guard and catering crew etc making it relatively expensive to run.

 

[LOL The Irony]

As no doubt the only people bringing up the subject are cranks and dreamers who can't afford to buy a Hornby APT let alone fund an enormously complicated project the heritage centre are more than correct in not entertaining the idea.

Then why not be honest and just outright say there aren't any plans to return it to service at present, instead of posting that excuse laden ramble that could be picked apart by anyone with even a basic knowledge of charter services (such as myself)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And compulsory reservations so you didn't end up in the wrong bit. Though that may have more been aping SNCF, as plenty of trains do and did have two parts with no way to walk through and not compulsory reservations.

I believe the APT-S (Squadron, i.e. the production unit) was going to be a shorter unit with a power car at one end only, rather like a 91 and Mk4 set which are in a way its spiritual (if not factual) successor.

 

[zwk500]

Then why not be honest and just outright say there aren't any plans to return it to service at present, instead of posting that excuse laden ramble that could be picked apart by anyone with even a basic knowledge of charter services (such as myself)?

Which of the reasons given were just 'excuses' that could be solved relatively cheaply or have some other workaround?

 

[tomuk]

And compulsory reservations so you didn't end up in the wrong bit. Though that may have more been aping SNCF, as plenty of trains do and did have two parts with no way to walk through and not compulsory reservations.

I believe the APT-S (Squadron, i.e. the production unit) was going to be a shorter unit with a power car at one end only, rather like a 91 and Mk4 set which are in a way its spiritual (if not factual) successor.

Well despite the denials, there are only 37 locomotives in the UK if not the world with 4 x 1MW DC body mounted traction motors driving the wheels through gearboxes and carden shafts.

 

[Efini92]

Well despite the denials, there are only 37 locomotives in the UK if not the world with 4 x 1MW DC body mounted traction motors driving the wheels through gearboxes and carden shafts.

Which locos are they? The 91’s?

 

[tomuk]

Which locos are they? The 91’s?

Yes the 31 91s and the six APT power cars.

 

[Efini92]

Yes the 31 91s and the six APT power cars.

Could they use the 91 running gear for the apt?

 

[Alanko]

Their market is steam and dining, not preservation. And having recently splurged on quite a few new toys, I suspect Mr Hoskins is looking closely at the 'profits' section of his balance sheets before spending money of flights of fancy.

True, but they have almost finished restoring D9000 to full working order. Don't they have a Peak somewhere on the path to mainline running as well?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Which of the reasons given were just 'excuses' that could be solved relatively cheaply or have some other workaround?

You've gotten the wrong end of the stick.

The wheelchair access thing is borderline complete nonsense (as has been already said, you can get a derogation to solve that issue) and then they make out that isolating tilt is some huge, massive task (like it was so reliable, BR never ever had to do that...) but then say the system is shot anyways. So why not just say 'the system is damaged and needs overhaul/replacement'?

At no point however, have I said returning it to service would be cheap or quick. I have however, pointed out some poor 'the dog ate my homework' level reasoning that they have used.

 

[tomuk]

Could they use the 91 running gear for the apt?

Not directly the APT has Swedish ASEA traction equipment and motors whereas the 91s have homegrown GEC equipment. I suppose of money were no object and the ASEA kit is unrepairable you could transplant it over. The easier option would probably be to modify a 91 as a power car lookalike.

 

[Alanko]

Using bits of 91 and/or Pendolino to get the APT running would involve removing original parts, which would be a shame.

Likewise when people suggest that DP1 should be restored to mainline operation. It would involve a lot of invasive work on a time capsule locomotive. Modifications to brings it in gauge, lots of destructive work in the cabs to fit modern equipment, etc.

 

[zwk500]

True, but they have almost finished restoring D9000 to full working order. Don't they have a Peak somewhere on the path to mainline running as well?

Part of the reason they're redoing the diesels is to fit in with their 'travelling in style' image that the Steam trips are part of. Having diesel haulage allows them to extend the range of their offering, and having well-known locos helps their publicity. There is an element of rail enthusiasm in the company, to be sure (why else would you run a charter rail company?) but I think the ATP isn't on their radar.

You've gotten the wrong end of the stick.

The wheelchair access thing is borderline complete nonsense (as has been already said, you can get a derogation to solve that issue) and then they make out that isolating tilt is some huge, massive task (like it was so reliable, BR never ever had to do that...) but then say the system is shot anyways. So why not just say 'the system is damaged and needs overhaul/replacement'?

At no point however, have I said returning it to service would be cheap or quick. I have however, pointed out some poor 'the dog ate my homework' level reasoning that they have used.

Yes, they could have presented it slightly better, but fundamentally nothing they've said in that statement is incorrect. Things like the cab equipment required are a bit 'oh sod it, there's too much to mention' but that doesn't mean they've misrepresented the work required and why it's unachievable.

 

[Rob F]

This was one of the issues which led to it's demise. 2 power cars were needed (with the technology of the time) to reach 155mph design speed. Originally the plan was to have them at either end, but then it was discovered that the two pantographs at opposite ends of the train would set up standings waves in the OLE at high speed and potentially cause dewirement. A 25KV bus line wasn't deemed feasible at the time (common as muck now of course) so the prototypes were produced with the power cars in the middle.
I believe it was forbidden for anyone to walk through them, which is why each half set had a guard and catering crew etc making it relatively expensive to run.

We are continually told that pushing a train is just as safe as pulling one, and I believe it. The APT-P pushed 6 vehicles in each direction, 4REPs pushed 8 etc and after the advent of DVTs even longer trains were pushed. Why could the APT-P not have had both power cars at the same end, one with a single cab and one of the same design that was actually built?

 

[43096]

We are continually told that pushing a train is just as safe as pulling one, and I believe it. The APT-P pushed 6 vehicles in each direction, 4REPs pushed 8 etc and after the advent of DVTs even longer trains were pushed. Why could the APT-P not have had both power cars at the same end, one with a single cab and one of the same design that was actually built?

Because you’re then designing three types of vehicles (driving trailer, driving motor, motor) rather than two, which is a cost increase. It was a prototype after all.

 

[trebor79]

Because you’re then designing three types of vehicles (driving trailer, driving motor, motor) rather than two, which is a cost increase. It was a prototype after all.

Exactly. Perhaps the power cars could have been put at one end and sacrificed half a coach of seats.
The freezing brakes issue was also related to it being a prototype. It wasn't the hydrokinetic brakes that froze, but the traditional air brakes. There were no air driers on the compressed air system and the pipe runs were lashed up rather than designed properly so there were sections where moisture gathered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly. Perhaps the power cars could have been put at one end and sacrificed half a coach of seats.
The freezing brakes issue was also related to it being a prototype. It wasn't the hydrokinetic brakes that froze, but the traditional air brakes. There were no air driers on the compressed air system and the pipe runs were lashed up rather than designed properly so there were sections where moisture gathered.

The APT-S was to have been a shorter train (14-car was a bit long* anyway) with one power car at one end and a DVT/DTxO at the other. The 91+Mk4 is very close to being it, had it had the tilt fitted.

* Just short of 300m according to a quick Google. Even the behemoth that is an 11-car Pendolino is only 265m long, and the trend back then was more frequent, shorter trains, e.g. a 2+8 HST is only about 220m, and a 91+Mk4 set about 250m.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The wheelchair access thing is borderline complete nonsense (as has been already said, you can get a derogation to solve that issue) and then they make out that isolating tilt is some huge, massive task (like it was so reliable, BR never ever had to do that...) but then say the system is shot anyways. So why not just say 'the system is damaged and needs overhaul/replacement'?

But if you isolated the tilt what would be the point of restoring it to mainline use? It was a tilting train. That is what made it famous. If by some miracle someone did restore the APT to mainline use I would definitely book a trip but if it didn't tilt I wouldn't bother.

 

[trebor79]

But if you isolated the tilt what would be the point of restoring it to mainline use? It was a tilting train. That is what made it famous. If by some miracle someone did restore the APT to mainline use I would definitely book a trip but if it didn't tilt I wouldn't bother.

Same. It needs a very wealthy benefactor to make this happen. If I'd won £196m on the Euromillions the other week I'd be making Crewe Heritage Centre an offer they couldn't refuse.

 

[Dougal2345]

I'd say the first priority is getting it undercover in a nice purpose-built museum building. Once it's stopped rotting in the rain, then is the time to start considering more fundamental restoration... (and yes I realise that such a building would be extremely expensive too...)

 

[D365]

… photos exist, they aren't going on the internet.

disappointing to hear that they will be lost to the mists of time.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Ah, the armchair expert is out... Have you actually looked at the vehicle to understand what needs to be done to give full access?

I've never purported to be an expert on this subject, armchair or otherwise, quite the opposite in fact. Full wheelchair access, as has been stated by me & others, can easily be skirted via a derogation. My entire point was to point out that their list of reasons comes across as a rambling mess and that putting easily debunkable reasons in the list would lessen the effect that the real reasons are intended to have.

But if you isolated the tilt what would be the point of restoring it to mainline use? It was a tilting train. That is what made it famous. If by some miracle someone did restore the APT to mainline use I would definitely book a trip but if it didn't tilt I wouldn't bother.

True. If you isolate the tilt, it's just a rough riding failed prototype that's an annoyance to operate thanks to requiring double crews. Also, if Tornado could get the licences and derogations to operate at 100mph, the APT could get them to enable tilt.

 

[hexagon789]

True. If you isolate the tilt, it's just a rough riding failed prototype that's an annoyance to operate thanks to requiring double crews. Also, if Tornado could get the licences and derogations to operate at 100mph, the APT could get them to enable tilt.

In theory, with sufficient capital, couldn't TASS be used to replace the C-APT speed advisory system and activate the tilt equipment?

Might be a bit of a bodge perhaps.

As an aside, the APT differential speeds for the WCML are thankfully still on record, so we know what speeds the APT was permitted to do with tilt operational, not all are comparable to the EPS speeds of today.

 

[LOL The Irony]

In theory, with sufficient capital, couldn't TASS be used to replace the C-APT speed advisory system and activate the tilt equipment?

Might be a bit of a bodge perhaps.

If you can bodge in TPWS and GSM-R, then you probably could bodge in TASS (with sufficient capital of course). It should be noted that if you trace the lineage of the APT to the present day, you wind up at Alstom's door, who I believe are the makers of our TASS equipment. In fact, you could probably get them to provide technical support.

 

[zwk500]

Also, if Tornado could get the licences and derogations to operate at 100mph, the APT could get them to enable tilt.

Tornado didn't get a license to operate at 100mph. It was undergoing the authorisation for 90mph, which requires test runs up to 110%, I.e. 99mph so NR gave it specific dispensation for 100mph on one set of test runs to avoid being party poopers. On a later test run from London to York at 90mph it suffered a major mechanical failure, causing carnage on the ECML (see Ebor Flyer charter), and subsequently went back to 75mph and hasn't tried again since. I think it may be permitted to 80mph in some circumstances.

 

[L401CJF]

Whilst it would be possible in theory at great expense to modify the APT with TASS and various other bits of kit to make it work, with it being the only survivor of the class I personally would rather see it left alone. It is great to see it in "as was" condition with all its original kit. If there were a few survivors then yes it would make sense to modify one to run on the mainline.

But to make the only surviving APT operational by removing what makes it the APT seems to defeat the object.

The deltic prototype was mentioned earlier upthread, and I agree with the comments made that it shouldn't be altered significantly to allow mainline running - because it is a time machine!

I personally would only like to see it operational if (again at great expense and hugely unlikely) it was using original kit/parts made to the original spec.

Its a bit like buying for examplenly a D78 and turning it into a class 484, its not really a D78 then is it!

 

[JKF]

I’ve always thought the Portuguese ‘Alfa Pendular’ tilting trains have a look similar to the APT-P, with squarer ends than the British Pendolino. You also feel the tilt a lot more which is fun. Maybe a repaint into UK heritage livery could be sponsored?

Alfa Pendular - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org