Are Anytime Returns completely flexible?

[4SRKT]

I have an SOR Shipley > Manchester via Hebden Bridge. On the return the barrier man wrote today's date all over it, and I told him that I wanted ti to BOJ overnight at Hebden Bridge, resuming the next day. He said that the journey must be completed that day even though the ticket is valid for a month.

I thought SORs were completely flexible within the route and time constraints of the ticket. That's certainly how the description reads on NRE.

 

[LexyBoy]

You are right. Writing the date is pointless and annoying.

I would send a complaint to the TOC concerned (Northern I presume) asking for clarification to be provided to staff. Writing the date is one thing but being provided with totally incorrect information is unacceptable - unlike some aspects of ticketing, it is not difficult to understand.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The outward portion is only valid for 5 days. But that's still pretty flexible. Does it not say "Validity: FIVE DAYS" on it, and have an expiry date 5 days in the future? That should be fairly conclusive for explaining to people, unless they're incredibly badly trained.

It's much more awkward when you're trying to get unknowledgable barrier staff and RPIs to believe the outward portion of an Off-Peak Return is valid to continue the journey on the second day, when the expiry date printed on the ticket is the day before!

 

[4SRKT]

You are right. Writing the date is pointless and annoying.

So now when I try to resume the journey there is a good chance I will get bother from the grip?

 

[maniacmartin]

Indigo2 is correct.

If the grip give you bother, point to the validity FIVE DAYS written on the ticket. There is no obligation to resume a BoJ on the same day with this ticket

 

[4SRKT]

The outward portion is only valid for 5 days. But that's still pretty flexible. Does it not say "Validity: FIVE DAYS" on it, and have an expiry date 5 days in the future? That should be fairly conclusive for explaining to people, unless they're incredibly badly trained.

It's much more awkward when you're trying to get unknowledgable barrier staff and RPIs to believe the outward portion of an Off-Peak Return is valid to continue the journey on the second day, when the expiry date printed on the ticket is the day before!

It's the return portion, and it says validity one month. They didn't dispute this, but said if I got off at Hebden then the ticket would cease to be valid after today.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Barrier staff in Manchester? That'll be G4S, probably just worth ignoring them (politely).

 

[4SRKT]

Barrier staff in Manchester? That'll be G4S, probably just worth ignoring them (politely).

Aye, but when they've scrawled all over your piece, making it look invalid when it isn't, then spout total rubbish (4 of them said the same, plus 'the gaffer' on the other end of the phone. One of them did think I might be right though to his credit), it's very tempting not to ignore!

 

[Deerfold]

I have an SOR Shipley > Manchester via Hebden Bridge. On the return the barrier man wrote today's date all over it, and I told him that I wanted ti to BOJ overnight at Hebden Bridge, resuming the next day. He said that the journey must be completed that day even though the ticket is valid for a month.

Did this happen at Manchester Victoria?

 

[4SRKT]

Did this happen at Manchester Victoria?

Where else? Grrrrrrrrrr.

 

[RJ]

The outward portion is only valid for 5 days. But that's still pretty flexible. Does it not say "Validity: FIVE DAYS" on it, and have an expiry date 5 days in the future? That should be fairly conclusive for explaining to people, unless they're incredibly badly trained.

It's much more awkward when you're trying to get unknowledgable barrier staff and RPIs to believe the outward portion of an Off-Peak Return is valid to continue the journey on the second day, when the expiry date printed on the ticket is the day before!

I fairly recently had to explain this concept to the HQ staff at East Midlands Trains because their ticket inspection staff kept harassing me for breaking my journey for more than one day. Even they were adamant that what the OP described was correct. Sometimes the problem lies at the top, so that's where the complaints should go. I was assured a brief when out when they realised that they got it wrong.

Although mediocrity seems to be largely accepted when it comes to retail knowledge in this industry, changes do come about when either the reputation of so called professional individuals is at stake, or when managers have to start signing off payments to people because of their colleague's indiscretions. I do get fed up with the champions in charge who take a stance of parsimony towards anything that isn't safety related.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It's the return portion, and it says validity one month.

Ah I missed that in the original post; I thought you were talking about the outward portion. Sorry about the confusion. In that case I'd say it should be even more obvious that it is perfectly valid; I hope you have no problems with it.

 

[philjo]

Barry Doe has raised this issue in his column in the latest edition of Rail.

 

[4SRKT]

The ticket in question. This is off to Northern this evening.

Thanks all for confirming what I suspected/knew already.

 

[4SRKT]

Barry Doe has raised this issue in his column in the latest edition of Rail.

Why is it even an issue though I wonder? The definition on NRE couldn't be clearer, and the ticket itself says One Month on it. To have 5 G4S chumps at Victoria insisting I was wrong is absurd. One of them even refused to hand my ticket back at 16:45 when I'd had enough of them and wanted to go for the 16:48: I had to demand it back from him several times.

 

[ainsworth74]

Because training costs time and money. Far easier not to bother beyond some absolute basics and then let the passenger deal with the consequences.

 

[Sleepy]

I always make a point of telling someone they have until "August XXth" to complete their journey when asking about BOJ - some look very surprised !
:cry: Always want to scream when someone makes a point of giving me reservation with an Anytime ticket. Bloody Trainline.com

 

[4SRKT]

Here's what I've written to Northern:

Today I had an SOR from Shipley to Manchester via Hebden Bridge. On the return journey I intended to break overnight at Hebden Bridge, but the G4S barrier attendant at Manchester Victoria wrote today's date on the return portion of the ticket. When I challenged him that he had made it difficult for me to resume my journey he told me that it was not permitted to resume the return portion of an SOR (*ANYTIME RETURN*) on a later date. This is quite simply wrong. I told him he was wrong and his colleague insisted that he was right and brought me to consult the revenue protection people at a nearby desk. There were three of these and one of them thought I may be right but the other two were adamant that if I broke at Hebden Bridge I must resume that day or the ticket would be invalid. I continued to point out that this is totally incorrect, and one of them rang 'the gaffer', who backed up his staff. So 4 out of 5 G4S staff on the barrier have no idea about one of the clearest and most basic ticketing rules, and neither did their 'gaffer'. I told them they were all wrong, including the 'gaffer', and I asked for my ticket back, knowing I was right and that I would just take my chances, pointing out to the guard the next day that the validity states 'one month' should I be challenged. The man who had phoned 'the gaffer' refused to hand it back saying "I can't let you travel until I've checked this out". This was totally beyond his remit, especially given that even he with his limited knowledge of ticketing was prepared to admit that the ticket I had was valid on the train I was trying to catch.

It is bad enough defacing tickets with confusing marks, but then when challenged to give *totally factually incorrect* information, and even to go as far as attempting to prevent me from travelling. Please communicate to G4S that their staff are unaware of even the simplest ticketing rules, and that they are rude, unhelpful and bordering on aggressive. Many passengers are intimidated by what they perceive as complex rules, but this case it is not complex and I believe most passengers being told the nonsense I was told would have believed it and bought another ticket the following day.

 

[telstarbox]

Devil's advocate:

Obviously BoJ is permitted as above and the RPI was wrong to claim otherwise. However, RPIs mainly mark tickets with dates to prevent their re-use, which is fraud. By writing 23/07 on the ticket, it stops the ticket being used from Manchester a second time on another date within the 5 days period of validity.

 

[4SRKT]

Devil's advocate:

Obviously BoJ is permitted as above and the RPI was wrong to claim otherwise. However, RPIs mainly mark tickets with dates to prevent their re-use, which is fraud. By writing 23/07 on the ticket, it stops the ticket being used from Manchester a second time on another date within the 5 days period of validity.

I'm aware of that, but it's equally possible that the guard at Hebden or wherever would not believe that I had broken there, especially if I resumed 4 weeks later or something, which would not be fraud. It's only acceptable to write the date on the ticket in this example on the train from Bradford Forster Square to Shipley. Otherwise a proper grip or some other mark is better.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think the main problem with barrier staff doing it at the start of a journey is that you haven't actually started using it yet and the guard on the first train may think it is already used, not to mention that the ticket office staff may think the same if there is disruption after passing through the barrier but before boarding a train (in terms of claiming a refund for non-travel).

But as for the general writing of the date on the ticket, I'm not sure there is much better way of doing it, except perhaps telling the guard how far you are going when they check the ticket and they make a note to that effect on it (as they are allowed to).

 

[yorkie]

4SRKT - you have a PM, I strongly recommend you write a differently worded letter to a particular person at Northern, who will listen.

If you are asked to buy a new ticket tomorrow, I would buy one, go along with it, as we then have cause to seek redress. I know someone else who is in dispute with Northern who is negotiating a settlement, and if there are two of you who are being treated badly, I'll ask another contact to see if we can get someone in the legal profession to write to Northern (someone who Northern WILL NOT be able to ignore). No guarantees, but as I said if you are treated badly, go along with it and we will make Northern regret it.

(I don't accept G4S being an excuse, these people are representing Northern!)
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But as for the general writing of the date on the ticket, I'm not sure there is much better way of doing it, except perhaps telling the guard how far you are going when they check the ticket and they make a note to that effect on it (as they are allowed to).

They can write whatever they want on the ticket, but if it's misleading information and/or false claims are made and/or the passenger's journey is disrupted, then a complaint needs to be made and it needs resolving.

 

[RJ]

Devil's advocate:

Obviously BoJ is permitted as above and the RPI was wrong to claim otherwise. However, RPIs mainly mark tickets with dates to prevent their re-use, which is fraud. By writing 23/07 on the ticket, it stops the ticket being used from Manchester a second time on another date within the 5 days period of validity.

Then you get problems with ticket inspectors who don't understand what the dates shown on the ticket mean! I've resumed journeys after a couple of weeks with tickets which previous inspectors have endorsed with the date of travel and been reported for suspected misuse by inspectors working for East Midlands Trains.

No point whatsoever in putting unofficial endorsements on tickets when there are so many inspectors who possess a dangerous mix of undesirable qualities - being clueless in their profession and obsessed with exerting their authority. The prosecutions departments must really have their work cut out with making head and tail of some of the rubbish the front liners report!