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Are high numbered bus numbers offputting to potential passengers?

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Ken H

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I grew up in W Yorks.
Before 1974 the bus companies had their own route numbering systems so were usually under 100. But their buses were different colours. So, for example, in Leeds, the 44 from Halton Moor to Stanningley was green(1), while the 44 leeds - Bridlington was red or blue(2). Their routes crossed on York Road by the Shaftesbury Cinema.
Then the PTE did a renumbering exercise so route numbers were not duplicated across the county.
Leeds got away with leaving it municipal number the same, but Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield with large route numbers, and also the National bus Company services.
Similar happened in Greater Manchester where they also ended up with very large route numbers.
Many of these large numbers survive to this day
Do passengers prefer a low route number, or are they not bothered about going to catch a 642? Are low numbers more memorable.

(1) This was a Leeds Coty Transport service.
(2) 44 Leeds - Bridlington was a joint West Yorkshire Road Car service (red) / East Yorkshire Motor Services (Blue)
 
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william

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Personally, I think regularly changing the numbers & routes is more offputting than large numbers. And today, bus numbers seem to change as often I change my pants! (about once every few months).

Some of the larger numbers I actually remember better than smaller numbers - for the duplication reason! Eg, there are many X1's, 9's, 5's, etc up and down the land.

Not so many 508's, 535's or 231's.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
As I am originally from the West Midlands, I never had a problem with the three digit number range of West Midlands Travel, Midland Red West, Midland Red North, etc.

The number ranges were as follows:

1-199 Birmingham, Solihull, and Sutton Coldfield (this number range was also duplicated in Coventry)
200-299 Dudley
300-399 Walsall
400-499 West Bromwich
500-599 Wolverhampton
600-699 Minibus routes supported by WMPTE/Centro
700-799 School services
800-899 Works services
900-998 Timesaver limited stop services

It was far easier and simpler system. I looked at the bus maps on the Network West Midlands website and there are two routes that are close together that have the number 49. One of these is the West Bromwich - Brandhall - wherever nowadays that runs along part of the A4123 Birmingham - Wolverhampton New Road, and a 49 that runs along (or did) along Barnes Hill (the Solihull - Northfield - Weoley Castle). Barnes Hill although switches to a different road number, it is straight on from the New Road at the junction of Hagley Road to Court Oak Road junction, and straight ahead along West Boulevard to Barnes Hill.

The Solihull - Northfield - Weoley Castle 49 has always been the 49 since at least 1988, and the West Bromwich - Brandhall - wherever was formerly the 449.
 

40129

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As I am originally from the West Midlands, I never had a problem with the three digit number range of West Midlands Travel, Midland Red West, Midland Red North, etc.

The number ranges were as follows:

1-199 Birmingham, Solihull, and Sutton Coldfield (this number range was also duplicated in Coventry)
200-299 Dudley
300-399 Walsall
400-499 West Bromwich
500-599 Wolverhampton
600-699 Minibus routes supported by WMPTE/Centro
700-799 School services
800-899 Works services
900-998 Timesaver limited stop services

It was far easier and simpler system. I looked at the bus maps on the Network West Midlands website and there are two routes that are close together that have the number 49. One of these is the West Bromwich - Brandhall - wherever nowadays that runs along part of the A4123 Birmingham - Wolverhampton New Road, and a 49 that runs along (or did) along Barnes Hill (the Solihull - Northfield - Weoley Castle). Barnes Hill although switches to a different road number, it is straight on from the New Road at the junction of Hagley Road to Court Oak Road junction, and straight ahead along West Boulevard to Barnes Hill.

The Solihull - Northfield - Weoley Castle 49 has always been the 49 since at least 1988, and the West Bromwich - Brandhall - wherever was formerly the 449.
I well remember that numbering series and cannot understand why it was largely discarded
 

AndrewE

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I always look forward to my trips on the 555 from Windermere to Keswick.

What's in a number? The Swiss bus timetables (in their National Rail timetable) are numbered like the Dewey Decimal system in my 1991 copy, but I think lots of the actual routes/services have other smaller local numbers - but some were in 4 digits!
 

asb

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I well remember that numbering series and cannot understand why it was largely discarded
Because some people think other people are incapable of remembering three digit numbers, hence this thread questioning that assumption!
 

carlberry

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I grew up in W Yorks.
Before 1974 the bus companies had their own route numbering systems so were usually under 100. But their buses were different colours. So, for example, in Leeds, the 44 from Halton Moor to Stanningley was green(1), while the 44 leeds - Bridlington was red or blue(2). Their routes crossed on York Road by the Shaftesbury Cinema.
Then the PTE did a renumbering exercise so route numbers were not duplicated across the county.
Leeds got away with leaving it municipal number the same, but Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield with large route numbers, and also the National bus Company services.
Similar happened in Greater Manchester where they also ended up with very large route numbers.
Many of these large numbers survive to this day
Do passengers prefer a low route number, or are they not bothered about going to catch a 642? Are low numbers more memorable.

(1) This was a Leeds Coty Transport service.
(2) 44 Leeds - Bridlington was a joint West Yorkshire Road Car service (red) / East Yorkshire Motor Services (Blue)
Oddly people have no problem remembering pins or telephone numbers. However marketing people love changing the numbers of bus services to try to make them saleable, complexly forgetting that 95% of bus passengers are going to be the ones that caught it yesterday/last week/last month and would prefer it if it had the same number. Especially so if the timetable at the stop, or the bus stop, or the publicity leaflet they have refers to the old number. So no, the number of digits is irrelevant however the stability of the product reference is. How many times has Kellogs 'renumbered' Corn Flakes or somebody decided that your local A road needs a more memorable number?
 

JRT

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I find Blazefield’s “new” numbering system for local Keighley and the Yeadon Airport routes harder to remember than the three-number designations.
Local Keighley routes are K1–K19 I think? But were 701–729?
Airport routes now A1–A3. But were 757, 747, 737?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I don't believe in numbers being preserved in aspic or having some convoluted numbering scheme to avoid duplication with some neighbouring town or county, but by the same token, I'm with @carlberry in that the "change for change's sake" approach or for no real good reason is simply confusing.

The 13 and 14 in Bath were renumbered to 3 and 4....why? In Darlington, the 15 became the 8....again, no change to the fundamentals of the route but just changed. Same with the 93 in Plymouth/Dartmouth becoming the 3.

I do "get" some of the changes.... the various North Somerset to Bristol routes becoming X1, X2 etc as part of the Excel relaunch and things do sometimes have to change but some of these seem like undue OCD fiddling or overzealous marketeers.
 

WM Bus

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It was far easier and simpler system. I looked at the bus maps on the Network West Midlands website and there are two routes that are close together that have the number 49. One of these is the West Bromwich - Brandhall - wherever nowadays that runs along part of the A4123 Birmingham - Wolverhampton New Road, and a 49 that runs along (or did) along Barnes Hill (the Solihull - Northfield - Weoley Castle). Barnes Hill although switches to a different road number, it is straight on from the New Road at the junction of Hagley Road to Court Oak Road junction, and straight ahead along West Boulevard to Barnes Hill.

The Solihull - Northfield - Weoley Castle 49 has always been the 49 since at least 1988, and the West Bromwich - Brandhall - wherever was formerly the 449.
The 49 doesn't go to Northfield, Weoley Castle or Barnes Hill.
It goes from Solihull to Rubery Great Park via Shirley, Maypole, Shannon Road, Cotteridge, West Heath and Longbridge, quite a long route in full to.

What the West Midlands has seen is a more simpler route numbering.
e.g 94/95 City Centre to Ward End, X21/X22 City Centre to University/QE Hosp, 23/24 City Centre to Harborne, 9/X8/X10 & 12/13 on Hagley Road & Portland Road, etc.
It is very unlikely customers on say the Birmingham 45 are going to be confused by the Walsall 45 using the same number a long distance away, which i'd imagine most who use the Birmingham 45 wouldn't have even heard of or ever need to use it.

When the route number changes passengers become used to the new numbers fairly quickly from what i've seen.
 
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AndyW33

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If we go back to the 1960s or earlier, areas served by large BET or Tilling operators were used to 3 figure route numbers. Midland Red used the full range possible within a 3 figure scheme, ran out of numbers, and used letter prefixes on 2 figure numbers as well. Crosville had an alternative plan, with letter prefixes and two figure numbers right across its network.
The thing was, the accounting systems available in those days (basically electro-mechanical) couldn't cope with duplicate route numbers. The companies didn't have a choice if they wanted revenue and cost statistics per route. Strangely the passengers didn't have any problem with the numbers. After all, what is the difference in practice between a municipal operator with (say) a route 27 with variations numbered 27A, 27B, 27C, and company operators with a route 270 and variations numbered 271, 272, and 273?. Then of course there was, and is, London with numbers running up to 3 figures AND letter suffixes - try working out a number plan for London that doesn't involve up to 4 characters in the route number if you're going to include school services. They did try, with the letter prefixes such as E for Ealing allowing a local numbering scheme, but the three digit routes still run through Ealing as well....
 

Roger1973

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Then of course there was, and is, London with numbers running up to 3 figures AND letter suffixes - try working out a number plan for London that doesn't involve up to 4 characters in the route number if you're going to include school services. They did try, with the letter prefixes such as E for Ealing allowing a local numbering scheme, but the three digit routes still run through Ealing as well....

London no longer has any routes with letter suffixes - TFL decided passengers can cope with letter prefixes but not suffixes, and the last was route 77A which became route 87 in 2006.

Although they did 'cheat' by introducing 301 + and 401+ numbers that were historically 'country' routes, and use the 601+ sequence (historically trolleybuses, and a few express routes in the 70s) for school routes.

The prefix sequences were originally intended for short local routes feeding in to a town centre / Underground station (like the W routes round Wood Green) introduced in the late 60s Reshaping Plan. Although some were a bit tenuous (the Peckham P sequence in particular - of the original P1 to P4, only the P3 actually went to Peckham.)

I'm with @carlberry in that the "change for change's sake" approach or for no real good reason is simply confusing.

My favourite 'how not to do it' was when Kentish Bus decided to try and make the point that they weren't London Country any more, so changed both their colour scheme and route numbers. Transcity then competed with green buses using the old route numbers that had largely been in place since the mid 1930s...
 

AndrewE

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London no longer has any routes with letter suffixes
Although they did 'cheat' by introducing 301 + and 401+ numbers that were historically 'country' routes,

That brings back memories...
55 years ago my bus to school was the (Country Bus) 301C - boarding as it came out of Tring depot or at the next stop, right to the end of its route, which later became a separately-numbered 312, but still a through service. The 301 went through to Watford down the A41, if I remember right.
Coming home it was very different: walk down to the Parade, take any bus to 2 Waters and get a 301 from there.
 

william

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My school bus used to break down every other day. Year 7-8 it was an old Sunderland Busways DD in yellow and white. We could see it coming from the top of the lane as this white line - it's roof was all that was visible above the roof tops. I can still hear the it now, an epic battle for decibels between the failing diesel engine and the grunts of the raw liver eating driver.
One day, whilst absolutely belting down the A19 at what must have been 43mph, everyone on the top deck was suddenly alerted to the horrifying sound of screams coming from the lower deck which was quickly followed by a tick plume of acrid smoke which got sucked through the upper deck and out of the open windowed smoking seats like some kind of giant extraction fan. No prizes for guessing the culprits last class...

I have alot of memories of the school bus run. Every other morning in morning sept - "All the South Hettoners to the Assembly hall, now!"

This was the geezer.
 
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Busaholic

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London no longer has any routes with letter suffixes - TFL decided passengers can cope with letter prefixes but not suffixes, and the last was route 77A which became route 87 in 2006.

Although they did 'cheat' by introducing 301 + and 401+ numbers that were historically 'country' routes, and use the 601+ sequence (historically trolleybuses, and a few express routes in the 70s) for school routes.

The prefix sequences were originally intended for short local routes feeding in to a town centre / Underground station (like the W routes round Wood Green) introduced in the late 60s Reshaping Plan. Although some were a bit tenuous (the Peckham P sequence in particular - of the original P1 to P4, only the P3 actually went to Peckham.)
W also stood for Walthamstow, though, in the case of the W21 introduced on the same day as the Wood Green routes, starting a separate sequence that in the event never got any further. P was a case of being clever, if you like, or historically aware at least. With the original P routes, the linked 1 and 2, P could be said to relate to the former bus garage, letter code P, named Old Kent Road which closed in the 1950s. The 202/A routes which the P1/2 replaced had worked from P until its 1957 closure, while the replacement of Peckham circular route 173 by the P3 (the first prefixed double deck route) was delayed until TGWU acceptance. Incidentally, this was the first full introduction of one man operation of double deckers, predating the DMS Fleetlines on the 95 and 220 by a year. The P4 was one of the original four experimental minibus routes, with no certainty it would be longlasting, so it made sense to slot it in with the Ps. One further thing, the prefix indicated a flat fare route, then a rarity outside the Red Arrow routes. Only the night route N prefix didn't mean a flat fare.
 

MotCO

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W also stood for Walthamstow, though, in the case of the W21 introduced on the same day as the Wood Green routes, starting a separate sequence that in the event never got any further. P was a case of being clever, if you like, or historically aware at least. With the original P routes, the linked 1 and 2, P could be said to relate to the former bus garage, letter code P, named Old Kent Road which closed in the 1950s. The 202/A routes which the P1/2 replaced had worked from P until its 1957 closure, while the replacement of Peckham circular route 173 by the P3 (the first prefixed double deck route) was delayed until TGWU acceptance. Incidentally, this was the first full introduction of one man operation of double deckers, predating the DMS Fleetlines on the 95 and 220 by a year. The P4 was one of the original four experimental minibus routes, with no certainty it would be longlasting, so it made sense to slot it in with the Ps. One further thing, the prefix indicated a flat fare route, then a rarity outside the Red Arrow routes. Only the night route N prefix didn't mean a flat fare.

One of the other prefix routes were the R routes for..... Orpington! Presumably 'O' routes made no sense since they could be confused as a leading zero rather than a letter. 'R' in Orpingrton stands for Roundabout, the name given initially to the network.

Confusingly, there are also other 'R' routes in London - the R68 and R70 which are presumably for 'Richmond'.

My favourite 'how not to do it' was when Kentish Bus decided to try and make the point that they weren't London Country any more, so changed both their colour scheme and route numbers. Transcity then competed with green buses using the old route numbers that had largely been in place since the mid 1930s...
Not only did they change the liveries and route numbers, but they have now been chnaged back. For example, the 477 changed to 17 before returning to 477.



In terms of whether higher route numbers confuse passengers, I think something like 737,747, 777 etc in the main relate to airline services, so should be fairly memorable. In London, most route numbers are 3 digits, and I don't find that confusing.

As an aside, do people refer to 3 digit numbers for example, as four-seven-seven, or as four-seventy seven? I tend to go for the former.
 

SteveM70

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I had no problem with the 776 and preferred it to the 32 or 33, because it meant about 400 yards less walking. The fact that it was a high number never really crossed my mind
 

jupiter

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Doesn’t matter. The mid-70s saw me on either the 556 or 557 going one way or the other round the Norwich ring road. Bring the big numbers on.
 

Simon75

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Lin in Macclesfield mid to late 80s, Crosville has 'E' letters for most routes. Around 1988 Town services were renumbered with just letters. They later (not sure when, as moved), renumbered routed again
 

AM9

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Round here, the single number routes are preceded by 'S' (for St Albans of course). They are local routes that serve the built-up area of the city. The main trunk routes through the city and between here and other settlements in Hetfordshire have three figure numbers, some of which were originally in the London Country bus range, i.e. 300-399 for north of the Thames. There's the 300, 301 & 302 that operate the main north-south spine of the county, Then there's the 321 that with alterations has covered the old Watford and A6 routes to Luton. There's also the 361 which is an extension of the original LCB 361 beyond How Wood to Watford via Bricket Wood. The 724 Green Line route from Heathrow to Harlow still follows a broadly LT route of the '60s. Apart from some routes in the 6xx range which I think were promoted by UNO,
The two figure route numbers are limited to the 34 which serves the old A5 villages and the last remnant of LT Red Central buses, the 84 to Barnet, now operated as a commercial route by Metroline (still red though).
I have only lived in the area for just under 30 years but have put some of the above 'history' together with some guesswork.
 

Busaholic

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I'd say the former, e.g. you'd often hear people explaining that they'd caught the two-three-one instead of the two-three-two.
Yes and no! I'd say the former too in most cases, but my bus to school was the 160, that's the one-sixty. However, there was a longer alternative, the 124, that's one-two-four. If it had been the 200 I'm sure I'd have said two hundred. The one-three-two was my favourite childhood bus route, a circular but with short workings,an incredibly rare combination in London.
 

william

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231 - two, three, one. 152 - one, five, two, 535A - five, three, five 'a', for three digits and 65 - sixty five, 35 - thirty five, for two digits round my way.

But then there was the 220 - two, twenny
 

JonathanH

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As an aside, do people refer to 3 digit numbers for example, as four-seven-seven, or as four-seventy seven? I tend to go for the former.
iBus definitely refers to bus routes by single numbers - eg four-six-eight to Elephant & Castle.

Reigate's bus routes are 32, 411, 420, 422, 424, 430, 435 and 460. 773 is suspended. 422/424 is a relatively recent invention but reuse of an historic number. 411 replaced 357 recently. Odd remnants of London Country from the days when Surrey had many more bus services. These days, Reigate isn't particularly lucrative bus operating territory sitting between London and Crawley so it really seems strange that it once housed the primary depot of London Country in the area.

Next door, in Dorking, there are more two digit routes - 21, 22, 32, 93 and 465. If the 465 were ever severed at Leatherhead (or Chessington) the 93 would no doubt be extended north from Dorking to meet its new Southern end point.
 
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Busaholic

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iBus definitely refers to bus routes by single numbers - eg four-six-eight to Elephant & Castle.

Reigate's bus routes are 32, 411, 420, 422, 424, 430, 435 and 460. 773 is suspended. 422/424 is a relatively recent invention but reuse of an historic number. 411 replaced 357 recently. Odd remnants of London Country from the days when Surrey had many more bus services. These days, Reigate isn't particularly lucrative bus operating territory sitting between London and Crawley so it really seems strange that it once housed the primary depot of London Country in the area.
London Transport Country Area, which ceased to exist on the stroke of midnight on New Year's Eve 1969, was based at Bell Street, Reigate, and passed at that time to the newly formed London Country.
 

TXMISTA

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I don't believe in numbers being preserved in aspic or having some convoluted numbering scheme to avoid duplication with some neighbouring town or county, but by the same token, I'm with @carlberry in that the "change for change's sake" approach or for no real good reason is simply confusing.

The 13 and 14 in Bath were renumbered to 3 and 4....why? In Darlington, the 15 became the 8....again, no change to the fundamentals of the route but just changed. Same with the 93 in Plymouth/Dartmouth becoming the 3.

I do "get" some of the changes.... the various North Somerset to Bristol routes becoming X1, X2 etc as part of the Excel relaunch and things do sometimes have to change but some of these seem like undue OCD fiddling or overzealous marketeers.
I’ve not lived in Bristol very long so I’m not that clued up on the history of the buses. What were the Excel routes numbered before they used the ‘X’ prefix?
 
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