• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Are there any gas lit carriages in preseevation and can they be run in service??

Status
Not open for further replies.

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,557
Are there any gas lit carriages in preservation? If so can they be run in service or would they be considered too much of a safety risk these days?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Are there any gas lit carriages in preservation? If so can they be run in service or would they be considered too much of a safety risk these days?
I'm sure plenty of carriages originally lit by gas have been preserved, but I don't think any retain working gas lighting systems.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
2,601
Location
Somerset
Considering the Railway Inspectorate were strongly advising companies against the use of gas lighting over a century ago, I doubt anything that made it to the preservation era still had any usable fittings for gas lighting in it (possible exceptions being anything recovered from domestic use a la Titfield Thunderbolt or the odd thing in the National Collection left over from what the Big Four preserved). As any coach old enough not to have been deemed worthy of conversion to electric light would almost certainly be pretty combustible itself, I can't see one getting anywhere near a Health and Safety inspection to run with members of the public in it- let alone passing one. Is gas lighting still allowed in caravans?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I'd be very surprised if any caravan user still used it even if it was fitted, and it stopped being fitted years ago. I remember when I was a kid we had a 1970s Sprite Alpine fitted with it, but when we upgraded to something a bit newer it didn't. With LEDs there is really no reason to have it as a leisure battery powering LED lighting will last weeks.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,557
I never realised caravans were gas lit too.

I once stayed in a YHA that was lit by gas but that's about it.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
I never realised caravans were gas lit too.

I once stayed in a YHA that was lit by gas but that's about it.
Gas lighting as an option ceased to be commonplace in the 1970s I think, but a new touring caravan throughout the 1980s would likely have a fridge that could be powered by battery/electric hook-up/propane.

Of course the caravan generally wouldn't have these gas powered features functioning while on the move, so that removes one of the risk factors present on trains.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,037
Location
No longer here
I’m sure there are gas lit carriages somewhere in preservation but no doubt people will convince you otherwise.

Thanks, I’m here all week.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
2,601
Location
Somerset
Gas lighting as an option ceased to be commonplace in the 1970s I think, but a new touring caravan throughout the 1980s would likely have a fridge that could be powered by battery/electric hook-up/propane.

Of course the caravan generally wouldn't have these gas powered features functioning while on the move, so that removes one of the risk factors present on trains.
I don’t think having gas lamps lit up hen on the move was a particular problem for the trains ( judged by the standards of 1900, that is!) It was having them lit ( or indeed having gas around at all) when irresistible force met immovable object. I suspect, however that in the majority of road accidents involving caravans, being hit by a flying gas bottle was a more likely scenario than it exploding - even if it was in the van at all.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Gas lighting as an option ceased to be commonplace in the 1970s I think, but a new touring caravan throughout the 1980s would likely have a fridge that could be powered by battery/electric hook-up/propane.

Gas fridges are still very common in camper vans and caravans as they use rather more power than LED lighting and you need it for cooking anyway.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
I don’t think having gas lamps lit up hen on the move was a particular problem for the trains ( judged by the standards of 1900, that is!) It was having them lit ( or indeed having gas around at all) when irresistible force met immovable object. I suspect, however that in the majority of road accidents involving caravans, being hit by a flying gas bottle was a more likely scenario than it exploding - even if it was in the van at all.
Well yeah... but if the vehicle with gas lighting is stationary, you've already solved half the "irresistible force/immovable object" conundrum!

Not sure what the current advice is for transporting your gas bottles for your caravan, but in the past you were advised to carry them in the boot of your car. Both to protect them from impact (caravans are pretty flimsy) and to increase the weight above the driven wheels. The smaller gas bottles that some preferred were as you suggest more at risk of becoming projectiles than becoming explosive.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Well yeah... but if the vehicle with gas lighting is stationary, you've already solved half the "irresistible force/immovable object" conundrum!

Not sure what the current advice is for transporting your gas bottles for your caravan, but in the past you were advised to carry them in the boot of your car. Both to protect them from impact (caravans are pretty flimsy) and to increase the weight above the driven wheels. The smaller gas bottles that some preferred were as you suggest more at risk of becoming projectiles than becoming explosive.

Most people transport them in the little cupboard provided on the caravan for the purpose. Probably safer there (typically clamped in place) because if an impact did breach them the explosion would be outside the car.
 

pdeaves

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
5,632
Location
Gateway to the South West
It is my strong suspicion that if any gas lit carriages survive (I have no idea whether they do), they will all be converted to electric by now. Possibly something fancy to replicate gas lighting, but electric nonetheless for safety and convenience [1] all round.

[1] No point having gas lighting if it's too expensive or too much of a faff to light it/maintain it.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It is my strong suspicion that if any gas lit carriages survive (I have no idea whether they do), they will all be converted to electric by now. Possibly something fancy to replicate gas lighting, but electric nonetheless for safety and convenience [1] all round.

[1] No point having gas lighting if it's too expensive or too much of a faff to light it/maintain it.

You could very easily mimic gas lighting with LEDs if you want to - their flexibility is impressive. Play a hissing sound over the PA if you really want :)

I think these days bare tungsten bulbs (or LED fakes) are enough to give the feeling of "really old".
 

2392

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2015
Messages
248
Location
Felling on Tyne
Whilst there are no to my knowledge gas light carriages still actively gas lit. Several Buffet cars [even Mk 1s] have gas powered kitchens. The LNERCA [based on the NYMR] are at present in the process of restoring East Coast Joint Stock 3rd class diner 189, whilst it will "appear" to have gas lighting, it will be fitted with this new fangled electric lighting. As you can get electric bulbs that will mimic gas lighting, they wiil be masked as will the wiring and battery boxes underneath. The battery boxes will be made to look like gas tanks. Bear in mind 189 dates from 1894+/- and was withdrawn still gas lit in 1927.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Most people transport them in the little cupboard provided on the caravan for the purpose. Probably safer there (typically clamped in place) because if an impact did breach them the explosion would be outside the car.
Now that you mention it, the last caravan my parents had did have lockers specifically designed to hold two smaller gas canisters rather than just a large one which had to sit out in the open when in use... but we're getting into the weeds topic-wise. I suppose there's a place now for retro caravan reminiscing should there be desire for such a niche thread!
 

47827

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
591
Location
Middleport
Had the gas lit YHA experience maybe 30+ years ago a few times and couldn't believe it. Interesting hardcore outdoor terrain on the paths to them too. They were chosen due to cheap bed rates. Not seen gas lighting on trains but recall candle lighting on a Xmas shoppex in 2003 via the S&C to Edinburgh when some of the first class punters took matters into their own hands after the stock was up to its usual standard at the time. The guard moaned at them but walked off and left them to it.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,020
Although gas lighting disappeared earlier, gas for cooking (and refrigeration) in refreshment cars lasted until modern times, and presumably is what is still used on heritage lines with restaurant facilities. It's the only energy source they had if power was not coming down the train line from the locomotive, which I believe only came with the Mk 3. All the Mk 1 refreshment vehicles, which of course provided all the facilities in the Mk 2 era as well as these did not have any refreshment vehicles of their own, even the miniature buffets and the ones in dmus, had gas cooking, they had commercial Calor Gas propane cylinders in the underframe which were changed regularly; sometimes not regularly enough, "no gas" being one of the myriad excuses for lack of refreshment facilities.

The gas used changed over (1950s?) from the old coal gas previously used to the commercial cylinders.

The absence of power source and the poor features of the old coal gas system led the LNER in the 1930s to introduce "anthracite electric" kitchens, which essentially were coal-fired ranges (the junior chef had to double up as a fireman), with forced draught from electric fans to get adequate heat. Some early 1950s BR restaurant cars perpetuated this approach.

Here's a real sidebar, but my 1960 Hornby model railway catalogue had a "gas wagon", which was about 10 or so large gas cylinders (like huge beer barrels) mounted sideways on a wagon, with a substantial framing around them. One wonders what this was used to supply. The railway tended in the coal gas era to have centralised gas production facilities, but were such distribution vehicles still used by this time?

I do seem to recall that the last gas-lit service in London was mentioned by John Betjeman in one of his knowledgeable accounts as being the stock the LMS provided for the services from Broad Street to the LNER destinations like High Barnet or Potters Bar, up to 1939, with old North London Railway wooden-seated 4-wheeled coaches. An old agreement over the use of the terminus at Broad Street meant the North London, and then the LMS, had to provide the stock. I think the last gas-lit of all was again some wooden-seated stock used for coal miners' services in South Wales. Our colleague @ChiefPlanner probably knows more than anyone else about this.
 
Last edited:

CarltonA

Member
Joined
22 Apr 2012
Messages
708
Location
Thames Valley
Here's a real sidebar, but my 1960 Hornby model railway catalogue had a "gas wagon", which was about 10 or so large gas cylinders (like huge beer barrels) mounted sideways on a wagon, with a substantial framing around them. One wonders what this was used to supply. The railway tended in the coal gas era to have centralised gas production facilities, but were such distribution vehicles still used by this time?
I believe the "gas wagons" were delivered to sidings at points where coaches were serviced and used to replenish the onboard lighting supply cylinders. I have seen an old photo of Marlow station where such a vehicle was stationed. I presume it was exchanged every so often with a full one from a depot such as Old Oak. It seems there was not a suitable local supply in certain locations.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,768
Location
Herts
I think the WSR restored a very rare ex GWR sleeping car (found in a field somewhere) , once used on the Fishguard run , which was restored to original standards , including working gas lighting.

The Glyncorrwg miners trains , were gas lit up to about 1960 , (propane gas) , and the ex GW vehicles survived into preservation.

Of course , a visit to the Black Country museum will regale you with gas lit shops and businesses , and I seem to recall the Holly Bush pub in Hampstead had both gas lighting and proper coal fires.
 
Last edited:

alf

On Moderation
Joined
1 Mar 2021
Messages
356
Location
Bournemouth
About ten years ago several ornate street lamps on the Thames embankment near Westminster underground station were gas lit.

Not because of lack of investment but as a history lesson.
May still be gulping gas, unless the green lobby has discovered them.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,020
About ten years ago several ornate street lamps on the Thames embankment near Westminster underground station were gas lit.

Not because of lack of investment but as a history lesson.
May still be gulping gas, unless the green lobby has discovered them.
There's an extensive network of gas lighting still in London. Here's a belter round the back of Downing Street, with smaller cousins all around. At their most atmospheric when it has snowed : Birdcage Walk - Google Maps . They have battery timers on the valve nowadays, so the old spectacle of the Lamplighter coming round on a bicycle with their long pole to turn them on at dusk no longer can be seen.

I believe Nottingham also has a substantial network, and in Germany Berlin is likewise.
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2019
Messages
410
Location
Alton, Hants
Maybe my memory (what's left of it!) is playing up, but I have a memory of the mess coaches used by the relaying gangs into the 1980's having gas lighting.
Pat
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,546
Although gas lighting disappeared earlier, gas for cooking (and refrigeration) in refreshment cars lasted until modern times, and presumably is what is still used on heritage lines with restaurant facilities. It's the only energy source they had if power was not coming down the train line from the locomotive, which I believe only came with the Mk 3. All the Mk 1 refreshment vehicles, which of course provided all the facilities in the Mk 2 era as well as these did not have any refreshment vehicles of their own, even the miniature buffets and the ones in dmus, had gas cooking, they had commercial Calor Gas propane cylinders in the underframe which were changed regularly; sometimes not regularly enough, "no gas" being one of the myriad excuses for lack of refreshment facilities.

The gas used changed over (1950s?) from the old coal gas previously used to the commercial cylinders.

The absence of power source and the poor features of the old coal gas system led the LNER in the 1930s to introduce "anthracite electric" kitchens, which essentially were coal-fired ranges (the junior chef had to double up as a fireman), with forced draught from electric fans to get adequate heat. Some early 1950s BR restaurant cars perpetuated this approach.

Here's a real sidebar, but my 1960 Hornby model railway catalogue had a "gas wagon", which was about 10 or so large gas cylinders (like huge beer barrels) mounted sideways on a wagon, with a substantial framing around them. One wonders what this was used to supply. The railway tended in the coal gas era to have centralised gas production facilities, but were such distribution vehicles still used by this time?

I do seem to recall that the last gas-lit service in London was mentioned by John Betjeman in one of his knowledgeable accounts as being the stock the LMS provided for the services from Broad Street to the LNER destinations like High Barnet or Potters Bar, up to 1939, with old North London Railway wooden-seated 4-wheeled coaches. An old agreement over the use of the terminus at Broad Street meant the North London, and then the LMS, had to provide the stock. I think the last gas-lit of all was again some wooden-seated stock used for coal miners' services in South Wales. Our colleague @ChiefPlanner probably knows more than anyone else about this.

Gas powered catering vehicles are still very much a thing, both in mainline charter sets and on heritage railways.
 

alf

On Moderation
Joined
1 Mar 2021
Messages
356
Location
Bournemouth
There's an extensive network of gas lighting still in London. Here's a belter round the back of Downing Street, with smaller cousins all around. At their most atmospheric when it has snowed : Birdcage Walk - Google Maps . They have battery timers on the valve nowadays, so the old spectacle of the Lamplighter coming round on a bicycle with their long pole to turn them on at dusk no longer can be seen.
Is it no coincidence that the Institute of Mechanical Engineers has its HQ in Birdcage walk (off Parliament Square), mentioned above?

Are the gas street lights that Taunton has highlighted there to remind the humble mechanicals & Londoners that they can light streets just like the electricals?
 

73202

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2011
Messages
38
Maybe my memory (what's left of it!) is playing up, but I have a memory of the mess coaches used by the relaying gangs into the 1980's having gas lighting.
Pat
Yes some of the old mess coaches and vans used with cranes tracklayers ballast cleaners etc had gas lighting fitted in some of them.

We had a preserved LMS engineers coach which had working gas lighting. This became impractical after a change to the gas regulations (I think in the 1990's) for the use of gas in such vehicles meaning a full safety inspection by an approved examiner was required. This made electric lighting far easier to use and maintain in such vehicles.
 

WL113

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2010
Messages
209
Location
Rugeley, Staffordshire
There's an extensive network of gas lighting still in London. Here's a belter round the back of Downing Street, with smaller cousins all around. At their most atmospheric when it has snowed : Birdcage Walk - Google Maps . They have battery timers on the valve nowadays, so the old spectacle of the Lamplighter coming round on a bicycle with their long pole to turn them on at dusk no longer can be seen.

I believe Nottingham also has a substantial network, and in Germany Berlin is likewise.
Around 1500 gas lamps still around London but there is a storm brewing about some of them.....

 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,495
Most people transport them in the little cupboard provided on the caravan for the purpose. Probably safer there (typically clamped in place) because if an impact did breach them the explosion would be outside the car.
My parent's 1972 caravan (which hasn't moved for 20 years) has a little storage cupboard at the front for gas bottles. The gas/electric fridge is at the back by the door. I'm struggling to remember if they bothered to move the gas bottles from the back to the front for travelling.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
My parent's 1972 caravan (which hasn't moved for 20 years) has a little storage cupboard at the front for gas bottles. The gas/electric fridge is at the back by the door. I'm struggling to remember if they bothered to move the gas bottles from the back to the front for travelling.

Caravan gas appliances are "plumbed in" as in a house so there would be no need to move them from the storage cupboard.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top