Arriva exiting Cannock

[Robertj21a]

Just to throw in a bit of speculation (I should say here that I have never been to Cannock and know absolutely nothing about the area) why has Arriva decided to pull out? and why does D & G want to buy?
I am guessing that Arriva aren't seeing enough of a return and don't believe they can improve matters, whilst D& G believe that they can get an acceptable return and presumably are buying the operation at very good price?

Arriva has been trying to get rid of Cannock for some time, presumably it's not profitable for them. Julian Peddle has a long term connection with Arriva when they want to dispose of operations and D&G/Select will be a lower cost operation than Arriva could ever be.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are you suggesting that D&G and Select only have poor quality vehicles and scruffy drivers ?

From my limited experience the other week, the D&G experience did vary. I sampled three vehicles and the drivers were all friendly and customer friendly; more so than some of the First ones. The driving standards were a bit more "point and press" though. The vehicles.... one tatty Solo, one decent Solo, one good Metrocity. It was fine but wasn't of the quality of Midland Classic and certainly no worse than Arriva in Cannock

I think it's a bit of a technicality. Possibly the term 'name' might be more appropriate than 'brand' for a lot of operators however a D&G bus is usually fairly recognisable, certainly on any corridor where there might be a choice available. Arriva is a brand and they've spent money on branding however the overall look of most of their fleets wouldn't really sell it as a unified brand, more a company in need of an identity. I haven't been to Cannock for a while however I suspect the overall impression is even worse than most fleets however if they've lost the Premium vehicles they may have less different paint schemes!

The fleet at Cannock is predominantly in the "middle" livery rather than the later insipid effort. I don't know how much of a brand it represents.

Just to throw in a bit of speculation (I should say here that I have never been to Cannock and know absolutely nothing about the area) why has Arriva decided to pull out? and why does D & G want to buy?
I am guessing that Arriva aren't seeing enough of a return and don't believe they can improve matters, whilst D& G believe that they can get an acceptable return and presumably are buying the operation at very good price?

Arriva has been trying to get rid of Cannock for some time, presumably it's not profitable for them. Julian Peddle has a long term connection with Arriva when they want to dispose of operations and D&G/Select will be a lower cost operation than Arriva could ever be.

I used to live in Staffs (albeit some time ago) when it was Arriva Mids North. At that time, Cannock, Tamworth and Telford were the depots that got most of the newer vehicles whilst Burton was the neglected one. Of course, that was disposed of to Midland Classic in a similar manner to this. The depot was filled with old tat with the few decent vehicles moved away, with the new owner getting a load of fully depreciated stock probably because they wouldn't agree to Arriva's book values.

The creation of a single Midlands business has felt that the focus has been drawn to the main Leicester operations at the expense of the old MRN business and that's been exacerbated by that Mids business subsequently getting half of the Shires tagged on. Management seems stretched over a wide area, with a lack of local focus so that quality of delivery has been poor on the ground. That has been compounded by DB's dithering about Arriva's future meaning investment has dropped off and again, what limited spending has been on the main Leics or Luton operations.

There's probably a half-decent business there for Peddle but not for Arriva with its demands on achieving certain hurdle rates/return on capital meaning cuts in management, a lack of local focus and attention to detail, and a lack of investment. People have rightly castigated First in the past (c.2010); there are plenty of parallels, albeit for different reasons, between this and First's decline

 

[Qwerty133]

I used to live in Staffs (albeit some time ago) when it was Arriva Mids North. At that time, Cannock, Tamworth and Telford were the depots that got most of the newer vehicles whilst Burton was the neglected one. Of course, that was disposed of to Midland Classic in a similar manner to this. The depot was filled with old tat with the few decent vehicles moved away, with the new owner getting a load of fully depreciated stock probably because they wouldn't agree to Arriva's book values.

The creation of a single Midlands business has felt that the focus has been drawn to the main Leicester operations at the expense of the old MRN business and that's been exacerbated by that Mids business subsequently getting half of the Shires tagged on. Management seems stretched over a wide area, with a lack of local focus so that quality of delivery has been poor on the ground. That has been compounded by DB's dithering about Arriva's future meaning investment has dropped off and again, what limited spending has been on the main Leics or Luton operations.

There's probably a half-decent business there for Peddle but not for Arriva with its demands on achieving certain hurdle rates/return on capital meaning cuts in management, a lack of local focus and attention to detail, and a lack of investment. People have rightly castigated First in the past (c.2010); there are plenty of parallels, albeit for different reasons, between this and First's decline

I don't think large parts of this are accurate. It's fair to say that the Cannock operations have largely been neglected over the past 12 months or so but other than that the various parts of Arriva Midlands, including Leicester, have equally suffered from a lack of attention to detail or investment over several years and in many ways Leicester is in a worse state than Tamworth (for example). The only part of the operation that seems somewhat well run and properly financed is the small Derby operation.

 

[overthewater]

IS Arriva trying to scale back its UK operations to make it look better for someone to buy the whole lot? Arriva sale seems to have gone very quiet again.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't think large parts of this are accurate. It's fair to say that the Cannock operations have largely been neglected over the past 12 months or so but other than that the various parts of Arriva Midlands, including Leicester, have equally suffered from a lack of attention to detail or investment over several years and in many ways Leicester is in a worse state than Tamworth (for example). The only part of the operation that seems somewhat well run and properly financed is the small Derby operation.

I think you misinterpret what I said. Much of Arriva is being starved of investment; that much is true and there are many older vehicles in Leicester. However, Wigston and Thurmaston do at least have some newer fleet in 2015 e200, 2016 e400mmc and 2017 e200mmc - the newest fleet in the old MRN business are some Streetlites at Telford from 2014 and a few e400s at Tamworth.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't think large parts of this are accurate. It's fair to say that the Cannock operations have largely been neglected over the past 12 months or so but other than that the various parts of Arriva Midlands, including Leicester, have equally suffered from a lack of attention to detail or investment over several years and in many ways Leicester is in a worse state than Tamworth (for example). The only part of the operation that seems somewhat well run and properly financed is the small Derby operation.

Lack of investment over several years ?. Please explain.

 

[Qwerty133]

Lack of investment over several years ?. Please explain.

New buses aren't the only thing that is important. Wigston for example is currently a mismatch of several different paint jobs and out of date internal route branding with no real pattern as to which one will be found where and seems to have been without a working bus wash for many a year considering the typical outer appearance of buses operated from said depot. Prior to Covid it also seemed to suffer from a lack of cleaning or maintenance staff with it being normal to find seats covered in mud and leaves and the bus being covered in litter even on early morning services and more and more of the MMCs being in service without CCTV screens, often for months at a time.

 

[K219UHA]

The routes passing to D&G are:

2/2A - Huntington & Cannock to Walsall
3 - Cannock to Brownhills
7 - Stafford to Moss Pit
8/8A - Stafford to Parkside
9 - Stafford to Highfields
22 - Rugeley to Etching Hill Circular
23 - Rugeley to Pear Tree Circular
24 - Rugeley to Brereton Circular
25/26 - Cannock & Hednesford Circulars
60/60A - Cannock to Lichfield
62 - Cannock to Burntwood
63 - Cannock to Rugeley
70 - Cannock to New Cross Hospital
74 - Cannock to Stafford via Brocton
75/75A - Cannock to Stafford via Penkridge
825/826 - Stafford to Lichfield via Rugeley
827 - Stafford to Baswich
H - Stafford Town to Stafford Hospital

Route 6 Rickerscote is also included, it recently passed over from Telford depot to Cannock depot operation. Route 6 as many will know was since the closure of Stafford depot operated by Telford by operating off the backend of the 5 from Telford.

 

[Contains Nuts]

It was fine but wasn't of the quality of Midland Classic and certainly no worse than Arriva in Cannock

To be fair, Midland Classic achieve a standard that is way above most UK operators.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To be fair, Midland Classic achieve a standard that is way above most UK operators.

Indeed, they are a superb operator; some distance better than D&G despite the Peddle links

 

[K219UHA]

Yes - and reportedly some of the 'better' vehicles were already transferred out before the sale.

Newer kit has been shipped out over a number of years now with the pace picked up the last 18 months i.e. 63 plate Pulsars new on the Pye Greens, odd older Pulsars here and there moving to and from Tamworth and often heading back to Tamworth, Streetlites moved out to the former Shires business. Older Solos and Solo SRs have appeared in numbers with the odd SB200 Centros from down south and knackered older B7RLEs turning up. More recently i.e. early 2020, Oswestry gained two Pulsars and Cannock gained Solos to replace them! Half of the 58 plate B7RLEs were shipped down to Milton Keynes on loan but everyone expected they wouldn't return.

In the last week or so the last two Pulsars have shipped out and have been replaced by a pair of end of life Cadets, even this week a older Solo has been shipped in from Leicester, more moves would be expected over the coming weeks!

Many comments have been said of the ex Milton Keynes Scanias in the months leading up to this been probable to be moved in, particularly as four parked at Cannock until recently have been pressed into use at Telford for school dupes.

 

[317 forever]

Now that the Telford & Shrewsbury operation will be separate from the remaining Arriva Midlands operation but adjoins Arriva Wales, it may as well join Arriva Wales. OK these towns are in England but that hasn't stopped Chester being part of Arriva Wales.

 

[F262YTJ]

They near as damn are as they are part of the new Arriva North created last year when all OpCos were reorganised into 3 units : Arriva North, Arriva South and Arriva London.

It would make sense to transfer them to the Wales unit though to tidy the operations up locally.

 

[Mwanesh]

The Arriva Midlands operation is just weird from Wales Borders to London.They should have kept Midlands and Shires separate.

 

[F262YTJ]

True.

 

[Contains Nuts]

Now that the Telford & Shrewsbury operation will be separate from the remaining Arriva Midlands operation but adjoins Arriva Wales, it may as well join Arriva Wales. OK these towns are in England but that hasn't stopped Chester being part of Arriva Wales.

The Chester depot is in Wales (in Hawarden) so can use the Welsh operator’s licence. Oswestry, Telford and Shrewsbury would be unable to use that licence so would need Arriva Cymru to apply for one in the West Midlands traffic area.

 

[jay38a]

Just to throw in a bit of speculation (I should say here that I have never been to Cannock and know absolutely nothing about the area) why has Arriva decided to pull out? and why does D & G want to buy?
I am guessing that Arriva aren't seeing enough of a return and don't believe they can improve matters, whilst D& G believe that they can get an acceptable return and presumably are buying the operation at very good price?

D&G being smaller will have smaller overheads then Arriva...Just look at Sevenoaks too, Arriva pulled out but Go Coach seem to make it work.

 

[peterblue]

Now that the Telford & Shrewsbury operation will be separate from the remaining Arriva Midlands operation but adjoins Arriva Wales, it may as well join Arriva Wales. OK these towns are in England but that hasn't stopped Chester being part of Arriva Wales.

The management structure of Arriva certainly is baffling. Naturally, that would make sense geographically. A centralised, larger management team would not have the level of finesse and detail in order to properly, efficiently manage local routes and operations outside their region.

 

[Robertj21a]

The management structure of Arriva certainly is baffling. Naturally, that would make sense geographically. A centralised, larger management team would not have the level of finesse and detail in order to properly, efficiently manage local routes and operations outside their region.

Wouldn't that depend on how the overall structure was broken down, and the authorities given to local management ?

 

[MedwayValiant]

Oswestry, Shrewsbury, and Telford are already on a different O-licence to Derby and Leicester. It's the Arriva Midlands North O-licence (historically Midland Red North) as against the Arriva Midlands one (historically Midland Fox). So I can't see a problem with using that O-licence, but reporting to Bangor rather than to Leicester.

If it were felt necessary to use a different fleet name for the non-Wales part of the "Wales" operation, how about Arriva The Marches? At least that term does actually mean something, which is more than The Shires ever did. If we need a further Welsh connection, well Arriva The Marches would reach Ludlow, which used to be the capital of Wales despite not being in it! (Well, sort of.)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The management structure of Arriva certainly is baffling. Naturally, that would make sense geographically. A centralised, larger management team would not have the level of finesse and detail in order to properly, efficiently manage local routes and operations outside their region.

Wouldn't that depend on how the overall structure was broken down, and the authorities given to local management ?

I think that's part of the problem; the centralisation of a management team so you have a business that extends from Hemel and Luton through to Oswestry

 

[Robertj21a]

I think that's part of the problem; the centralisation of a management team so you have a business that extends from Hemel and Luton through to Oswestry

Yes, but that's only the overall management team. I'm sure there's local input as well.

 

[PaulWC]

Confirmation on the D&G website of the Chaserider brand

Chaserider

dgbus.co.uk

We're proud to be bringing a new look to bus travel across Cannock and Stafford.



From 10th January 2021 most bus services operated by Arriva in the Cannock, Stafford, Rugeley and Lichfield areas will be transferring to D&G Bus under the new Chaserider brand.



We're not planning on any major timetable changes following the transfer, but there will be some very minor changes on some routes - all of our timetables are shown below.



Your regular drivers will be joining us so that there's no disruption to your service.



Some services are staying with Arriva - these are route 5 from Stafford to Telford and routes 765 and X65 from Lichfield to Tamworth.



We're looking forward to welcoming you on our buses very soon!

 

[Cannocklad]

Arriva have absolutely run Cannock into the ground. The buses are filthy and disgusting they cant even get it together to retrim threadbare seats. 12/13 year old Solos are run on interurban routes and break down all the time. Just awful, poorly maintained, expensive fares etc. NX came in with the X51 and wiped the floor with Arrivas number 1 route

 

[Robertj21a]

Arriva have absolutely run Cannock into the ground. The buses are filthy and disgusting they cant even get it together to retrim threadbare seats. 12/13 year old Solos are run on interurban routes and break down all the time. Just awful, poorly maintained, expensive fares etc. NX came in with the X51 and wiped the floor with Arrivas number 1 route

That's probably partly related to the fact that this takeover has been in the pipeline for ages, over a year.

 

[Woody38]

Just to throw in a bit of speculation (I should say here that I have never been to Cannock and know absolutely nothing about the area) why has Arriva decided to pull out? and why does D & G want to buy?
I am guessing that Arriva aren't seeing enough of a return and don't believe they can improve matters, whilst D& G believe that they can get an acceptable return and presumably are buying the operation at very good price?

Don’t thing the area has much potential, there is no really big town apart from Birmingham which most people go on the train, convid has effected bus travel which may never return to what it was, hope d and g bus can turn it around but it’s going to be hard, my local route turns up,when it wants, u can’t rely on it, the fares are expensive, the buses have seen better days,

 

[Lynford1976]

Roger French's latest blog update mentions the sale of Cannock...and further changes to the management structure of the southern operations...

Week 4: Be jolly careful

Saturday 28th November 2020 Hi”‘Tis the season to be jolly; but ’tis also the season to be jolly careful” our jolly jape Johnson jested in Monday’s Downing Street pres…

busandtrainuser.com

 

[K219UHA]

Now that the Telford & Shrewsbury operation will be separate from the remaining Arriva Midlands operation but adjoins Arriva Wales, it may as well join Arriva Wales. OK these towns are in England but that hasn't stopped Chester being part of Arriva Wales.

Erm.... don't forget Oswestry, often gets left out Oswestry depot operate into Wrexham on the 2/2A/2C and have some common sections ticket acceptances with Arriva Buses Wales on the 3/4/5 services.

 

[Mwanesh]

The Shires has been wiped out as an operating company.Aylesbury , High Wycombe and Milton Keynes stay with the Midlands. Luton joins Hemel Hempstead ,Ware ,Harlow and Colchester .All are now trading as Arriva Kent and Thameside effective this Saturday

 

[Mal]

I know it's early days, but does anyone know what buses have passed to D&G from Arriva with the sale of Cannock?