Arriva Pulls Out of Porthmadog

[Llandudno]

Arriva Buses Wales have just announced that they are completely withdrawing the following services from the end of November and Gwynedd CC would be providing replacement
3 Pwllheli - Porthmadog
3B Porthmadog- Blaenau Ffestiniog

Presumably most of the journeys on the above services were provided commercially, so it seems as surprising that one of the local independents have not picked up the best bits.

If the entire operation of these routes is tendered is this not the ideal time to launch the proposed Traws Connect service, with coordinated timetables with other buses in the area, and another ground breaking idea connections with trains at Bleanau!

How long before Arriva finally dispose of their north Wales network, as it is retrenching all the time, there is no innovation, and clearly they have no interest in it.

 

[GusB]

Arriva Buses Wales have just announced that they are completely withdrawing the following services from the end of November and Gwynedd CC would be providing replacement
3 Pwllheli - Porthmadog
3B Porthmadog- Blaenau Ffestiniog

Presumably most of the journeys on the above services were provided commercially, so it seems as surprising that one of the local independents have not picked up the best bits.

If the entire operation of these routes is tendered is this not the ideal time to launch the proposed Traws Connect service, with coordinated timetables with other buses in the area, and another ground breaking idea connections with trains at Bleanau!

How long before Arriva finally dispose of their north Wales network, as it is retrenching all the time, there is no innovation, and clearly they have no interest in it.

Could you post a link and quotation for this please?

 

[Llandudno]

Could you post a link and quotation for this please?

Yikes, bit too techy for me, it’s on Arriva Buses Wales Twitter feed, if anyone computer savvy can post it on here!

 

[43055]

Here is the tweet and the news article. I suppose what doesn't help is the long empty runs for these routes from the depot in Bangor unless the vehicles are out stationed overnight.

https://twitter.com/arrivabuswales/status/1323260711884201984

Arriva services 3 and 3B in #Pwllheli to be withdrawn from Monday 30th November 20. Gwynedd County Council will provide a replacement service, once new timetable details are known we will provide further updates. https://crowd.in/wOcji1

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

Following a thorough review of Arriva services and bus networks in North Wales, the decision has been made to de-register our Pwllheli services.

Despite a significant focus on supporting these routes, which has included working closely with our local authority partners, patronage levels continue to remain low and in some instances are suffering with continued decline.

It is therefore no longer viable for Arriva Buses Wales to continue to operate in Pwllheli and termination of services will come into effect after the last bus on Monday 30th November. For details of alternative services, please contact Gwynedd County Council here.

Our Customer Services team are on hand to assist with ticketing queries, including information on refunds and credits for any Arriva customers with period tickets that will no longer be valid after the service is withdrawn. You can contact the team here or by calling 0344 800 4411.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Arriva Buses Wales have just announced that they are completely withdrawing the following services from the end of November and Gwynedd CC would be providing replacement
3 Pwllheli - Porthmadog
3B Porthmadog- Blaenau Ffestiniog

Presumably most of the journeys on the above services were provided commercially, so it seems as surprising that one of the local independents have not picked up the best bits.

If the entire operation of these routes is tendered is this not the ideal time to launch the proposed Traws Connect service, with coordinated timetables with other buses in the area, and another ground breaking idea connections with trains at Bleanau!

How long before Arriva finally dispose of their north Wales network, as it is retrenching all the time, there is no innovation, and clearly they have no interest in it.

Here you go

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

Following a thorough review of Arriva services and bus networks in North Wales, the decision has been made to de-register our Pwllheli services. Despite a significant focus on supporting these routes, which has included working closely with our local authority partners, patronage levels continue to remain low and in some instances are suffering with continued decline.

It is therefore no longer viable for Arriva Buses Wales to continue to operate in Pwllheli and termination of services will come into effect after the last bus on Monday 30th November. For details of alternative services, please contact Gwynedd County Council here. Our Customer Services team are on hand to assist with ticketing queries, including information on refunds and credits for any Arriva customers with period tickets that will no longer be valid after the service is withdrawn. You can contact the team here or by calling 0344 800 4411.

The outstation at Pwllheli has been declining for a long while, and the general malaise with Arriva plus Covid has finished it off. Imagine Caelloi will have the remnants of the 3 whilst someone like Johns in Blaenau may pick up the other stuff?

I've said before.... If this were First, people would be running around as if their hair was on fire. TBH, I'm surprised that it's actually lasted this long, having lost the other Llyn contracts and the other cutbacks in South Cambria a few years back. Arriva, IMHO, seems a business bereft of investment and direction even before Covid.

 

[TheSel]

Sad loss to the industry. I'm old enough to remember when Crosville had a big depot at Pwllheli - services all over the Llyn Peninsula as well as the 'Main Roads' to Caernarfon and Porthmadog / Blaenau Ffestiniog.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sad loss to the industry. I'm old enough to remember when Crosville had a big depot at Pwllheli - services all over the Llyn Peninsula as well as the 'Main Roads' to Caernarfon and Porthmadog / Blaenau Ffestiniog.

To be fair, the depot site was substantial and arguably too large and was sold off (as many were) to KwikSave (becoming a Somerfield, then Coop, now B&M). I think they moved to another coach firm (can't recall the name) before sharing with Caelloi for a bit and then the current spot.

They also just couldn't compete with the various low-cost independents in that part of the world in respect of tenders. Still a sad day and wouldn't be shocked to see more Arriva retrenchment across the UK.

 

[upasalmon]

The situation is that the Pwllheli and Porthmadog routes were detached from Arrivas main operation on the North Wales coastal strip plus Wrexham. The problem with smaller firms is they are not so robust and a few of those have gone belly up, and GHA was a serious rival to Arriva before they closed down Again this is where competition is irrelevant as there are few if any golden eggs in serving sparsely populated areas.

 

[Vespa]

Arriva is a business not a charity, the Covid situation doesn't help.

If you don't use it, you lose it, simple as that.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The situation is that the Pwllheli and Porthmadog routes were detached from Arrivas main operation on the North Wales coastal strip plus Wrexham. The problem with smaller firms is they are not so robust and a few of those have gone belly up, and GHA was a serious rival to Arriva before they closed down Again this is where competition is irrelevant as there are few if any golden eggs in serving sparsely populated areas.

Of the ones that have gone, GHA engaged in an unsustainable model of expansion that was almost akin to a ponzi scheme. Then you had Padarn who embarked on a suicidal competitive escapade against Arriva, and Express Motors who both fiddled the free pass scheme.

Not every firm in North Wales is dodgy... but it's not a great record.

 

[Man of Kent]

Hasn't it already been announced that Caernarfon - Porthmadog - Blaenau Ffestiniog is to be Traws Cymru route T22 operated by electric buses? This sounds like Arriva giving up before being forced out, with the Pwllheli route being a linked casualty.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hasn't it already been announced that Caernarfon - Porthmadog - Blaenau Ffestiniog is to be Traws Cymru route T22 operated by electric buses? This sounds like Arriva giving up before being forced out, with the Pwllheli route being a linked casualty.

Presumably Arriva would be in with a decent chance of winning the tender, though?

 

[tramboy]

Following a thorough review of Arriva services and bus networks in North Wales, the decision has been made to de-register our Pwllheli services. Despite a significant focus on supporting these routes, which has included working closely with our local authority partners, patronage levels continue to remain low and in some instances are suffering with continued decline. It is therefore no longer viable for Arriva Buses Wales to continue to operate in Pwllheli and termination of services will come into effect after the last bus on Monday 30th November. For details of alternative services, please contact Gwynedd County Council here. Our Customer Services team are on hand to assist with ticketing queries, including information on refunds and credits for any Arriva customers with period tickets that will no longer be valid after the service is withdrawn. You can contact the team here or by calling 0344 800 4411.

In regards to the current funding regime in Wales, this makes no sense. The Bus Emergency Scheme as it currently stands is designed to prevent operators incurring losses relating to low patronage etc. Arriva would be best placed to hang on to the services until such time as the future funding regime (franchising/nationalisation/partnership) is clearer, and in many respects this decision will further push WG towards one of the first two options.

 

[carlberry]

In regards to the current funding regime in Wales, this makes no sense. The Bus Emergency Scheme as it currently stands is designed to prevent operators incurring losses relating to low patronage etc. Arriva would be best placed to hang on to the services until such time as the future funding regime (franchising/nationalisation/partnership) is clearer, and in many respects this decision will further push WG towards one of the first two options.

I suspect that this was already planned and, if not, the Welsh government's general attitude towards bus services this year (very slow to deal with the Covid losses whilst advising everybody not to use public transport for months on end) will have changed something that is likely to have been marginal into something that's not worth continuing with. Possibly the announcement of the electric bus on the Traws also pushing the decision.
As others have said Arriva generally feels like a company that had one plan (sell and let somebody else deal with the future) and never got as far as a plan B if that didn't work.

 

[upasalmon]

Of the ones that have gone, GHA engaged in an unsustainable model of expansion that was almost akin to a ponzi scheme. Then you had Padarn who embarked on a suicidal competitive escapade against Arriva, and Express Motors who both fiddled the free pass scheme.

Not every firm in North Wales is dodgy... but it's not a great record.

Apart from those firms you mentioned it's that the ownership of many small bus firms tends to be by people who become elderly and find the strain of running a marginal firm too much .
It was thought Crosville Cymru would not survive, but they did however it's inheritor Arriva have pulled out of Ceredigion, Aberystwyth, and South of Snowdon (Wyddfa). And when small operators no longer find bus operation viable, a larger firm is needed, or a local government owned firm like that in the Western Isles is needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And when small operators no longer find bus operation viable, a larger firm is needed, or a local government owned firm like that in the Western Isles is needed.

Or you tender it out. It becomes viable with some subsidy.

 

[upasalmon]

Or you tender it out. It becomes viable with some subsidy.

Provided the local authorities can pay the subsidies , which is increasingly not the case.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Grand Wazoo -Apart from those firms you mentioned it's that the ownership of many small bus firms tends to be by people who become elderly and find the strain of running a marginal firm too much .
It was thought Crosville Cymru would not survive, but they did however it's inheritor Arriva have pulled out of Ceredigion, Aberystwyth, and South of Snowdon (Wyddfa). And when small operators no longer find bus operation viable, a larger firm is needed, or a local government owned firm like that in the Western Isles is needed.

I don't know about that. You have new entrants, often people who've worked for the larger incumbent operator, or family run businesses. Firms like P&O Lloyd keep on going as do Richards Bros, and then you have those firms that effectively ousted Arriva like Mid Wales or Lloyds in Machynlleth. Clynnog and Trefor, and Caelloi, are also pretty longstanding businesses.

The biggest threat now is that you have many firms that had a few tendered runs, some schools work and a coaching business but the latter of those three is now in tatters.

 

[upasalmon]

Provded the local authorities can pay the subsidies , which is increasingly not the case.

If Arriva pulled out of North Wales then another large firm would have to take over as small firms are unable to find the number of buses to replace the entire Arriva operation. As for the Porthmadog-Pwllheli routes they are detached from Arrivas route network

 

[Robertj21a]

If Arriva pulled out of North Wales then another large firm would have to take over as small firms are unable to find the number of buses to replace the entire Arriva operation. As for the Porthmadog-Pwllheli routes they are detached from Arrivas route network

Has there been any serious suggestion that Arriva may pull out of all N Wales ?

 

[carlberry]

Has there been any serious suggestion that Arriva may pull out of all N Wales ?

None I'm aware of (other than the usual rumors from people 'in the know' that circulate about every company in every group being sold to every other group).

However the whole of Arriva does have the feel of an operation that was ticking over whilst it's owners got shot of it and now they're left with something they didn't want and don't know what to do with it.

Fake news and made up rumor alert:
Given the Welsh governments most recent announcements about public transport a visit to DB headquarters with a cheque book may give them all the control over North Wales operations that they want!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Has there been any serious suggestion that Arriva may pull out of all N Wales ?

No - just the usual idle speculation.

Pwllheli is just an outstation/portacabin at the back of a petrol station, some distance from the main depot in Bangor and with essentially one half-decent route that was shared with Caelloi IIRC.

Bangor has some decent routes (or like the rest of the industry, were decent before Covid) to Caernarfon, Bethesda, Llandudno and Holyhead from a modern depot at Llandygai, and Rhyl also has some decent routes along the coastal strip. Like most of Arriva, not much investment in recent years but still ok for the moment.

 

[upasalmon]

Arriva currently have no intention to pull out of North Wales However they are restricted to the coast, Anglesey/Ynys Mon,and Wrexham (Wrecsam) and Mold (Yr Wyddgrug). They also serve Fflint (the Welsh spelling is sufficient!).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Arriva currently have no intention to pull out of North Wales However they are restricted to the coast, Anglesey/Ynys Mon,and Wrexham (Wrecsam) and Mold (Yr Wyddgrug). They also serve Fflint (the Welsh spelling is sufficient!).

To be honest, they've been pretty well confined to the coast for some time once you get past Flint, since the closure of Dolgellau and Machynlleth, and the axing of the 19 into the upper reaches of the Conwy Valley.

It's probably close on 15 years ago since Caernarfon outbase closed with the last few routes passing to KMP (?) and even longer since they lost the Llyn routes to Berwyn and the other Llanrwst stuff to Llew Jones. Really, it's just those few services that project up the valleys such as Bangor to Bethesda or Rhyl to Denbigh (though they did take on the run over via Ruthin to Wrexham).

As for Anglesey, it would certainly be interesting to know how many operators have operated tendered services there over the years. In addition to Crosville Wales/Arriva on a number of occasions, there's been all sorts (Gwynfor, Padarn, Eifions etc) over the years.

 

[markymark2000]

I think it's worth pointing out here that the route was a weird route, far away from the rest of the network. It wasn't good for paying passengers since they couldn't get anywhere without using another operator. Arriva has been playing around with the 3/3B for a while as well to kill off demand which wouldn't have helped things.
The 3B would be much better in local hands. I do worry though about the local bus network as the local operators don't seem to be very visable on the world wide web so it's great if you already use the bus but not so great for getting new passengers onboard.

 

[upasalmon]

In sparsely populated areas, variable amounts of publicity is provided by the likes of Bws Gwynedd or the relevant local authority, rather than the operator.

 

[Hardcastle]

In sparsely populated areas, variable amounts of publicity is provided by the likes of Bws Gwynedd or the relevant local authority, rather than the operator.

And the Gwynedd timetables are quite easy to find on the council site plus there is the bargain red rover ticket for multiple journeys.

 

[Llandudno]

The timetables are relatively easy to find on the Gwynedd County Council website.

The publicity is ok, but there is no marketing, a subtle but vital difference if you want to entice tourists out of their cars!

Perhaps, I may get my old job back...(it wasn’t in Wales though!)

 

[philthetube]

If Arriva pulled out of North Wales then another large firm would have to take over as small firms are unable to find the number of buses to replace the entire Arriva operation. As for the Porthmadog-Pwllheli routes they are detached from Arrivas route network

Who tells one of the big companies that they have to take over.?

 

[upasalmon]

Either that or areas get cut off. Anyway this is only a doomsday scenario if no one takes over abandoned bus routes . It's just west of Porthmadog that's in doubt when Arriva quits the 3/3B route.