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Arriva Pulls Out of Porthmadog

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TheGrandWazoo

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Arriva outstation a number of vehicles (anyone know how many?) at Alpine Coaches depot in Llandudno, so no real need for an Arriva depot at Junction, especially as Arriva seem to be retrenching in north Wales.
No new vehicles, no new routes, no innovation, no marketing and frequencies even of trunk routes all over the place.

Perhaps Arriva are looking for a buyer like they have just secured in the Cannock area?

In Chester, they kept all the trunk routes on 1/2 frequency as well rather than running full timetables which were done elsewhere. The routes are now only just returning to decent timetables. They are 100% running down the area but in true NW&W fashion, they are doing it in such a way to kill off the demand on the local routes so no one else will try and run the buses and then with no competition, they can keep the trunk routes which make more money. It's as if they have a grudge against the area and as they can't make it work, they don't want anyone else to make it work.

I don't think it is. In most instances in life, cock-up rather than conspiracy is always most likely. TBH, Arriva have a higher cost base (and higher margin expectations) so that has an impact on their competitiveness for tenders and their general service provision.

The main problem for Arriva seems to stem from its parent, Deutsche Bahn. They started looking at a sale in 2016, then went back on that. However, DB have massive debt problems, compounded by the need to invest in new high speed trains in Germany. With a debt mountain of c.€25bn, they've looked at selling Arriva in 2019 and were in discussions before then pulling out and deciding to pursue an IPO before deciding to withdraw from that process. It's a business in a holding pattern but it's been like that for 3-4 years; lack of investment, and a focus on margins and not growth. It's First of 2010.

ps I wouldn't have retained LJ depot. It was knackered and the low height nature of the buildings was a right faff.
 
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cnjb8

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Arriva outstation a number of vehicles (anyone know how many?) at Alpine Coaches depot in Llandudno, so no real need for an Arriva depot at Junction, especially as Arriva seem to be retrenching in north Wales.
No new vehicles, no new routes, no innovation, no marketing and frequencies even of trunk routes all over the place.

Perhaps Arriva are looking for a buyer like they have just secured in the Cannock area?
Who would want to buy Arriva Buses Wales in its current state? Even if they did achieve a sale, Arriva would probably do what they did in Cannock and send the newer buses away, probably to Liverpool in this case, and in return get ancient Cadets and Solos.
 

carlberry

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Who would want to buy Arriva Buses Wales in its current state? Even if they did achieve a sale, Arriva would probably do what they did in Cannock and send the newer buses away, probably to Liverpool in this case, and in return get ancient Cadets and Solos.
The sale would state what assets were going to be transferred, if Arriva wanted to reduce the overall value of the Welsh bit they could transfer out some of the newer vehicles (Deckers in Wrexham for example) however the losers would be the local passengers.

In Cannock D&G will have agreed what they were getting and it's likely that this will factor into their plans to change things (i.e. they can appear to be making a big improvement by splashing a bit of paint around and bringing in a few mid life or new vehicles to improve the image). This is what's happened several times with ex First depots (Plymouth, Scottish Borders and Bolton for example).
 

TheGrandWazoo

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  • The sale would state what assets were going to be transferred, if Arriva wanted to reduce the overall value of the Welsh bit they could transfer out some of the newer vehicles (Deckers in Wrexham for example) however the losers would be the local passengers.

In Cannock D&G will have agreed what they were getting and it's likely that this will factor into their plans to change things (i.e. they can appear to be making a big improvement by splashing a bit of paint around and bringing in a few mid life or new vehicles to improve the image). This is what's happened several times with ex First depots (Plymouth, Scottish Borders and Bolton for example).
Exactly this.

For sale of ANY operation, the assets are as agreed between the seller and the buyer. As we've seen with various divestments recently...

  • First selling Bolton depot to Rotala - the depot freehold was sold and the operations. However, the fleet was not sold and was instead subject to a phased loan where Rotala retained the fleet on loan but ownership was retained by First and, as they went through the phases, that fleet has been returned to First for redeployment
  • First selling Manchester depot to Go Ahead - the operation including fleet and depot transferred
  • Arriva selling Burton (and Cannock) - filled the depot with older fleet ready for disposal probably as Midland Classic/D&G didn't want to pay the book value for the vehicles/Arriva didn't want to take the financial hit and/or they want the freedom to have their preferred vehcle types
There's many ways to structure a divestment!
 

cnjb8

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The sale would state what assets were going to be transferred, if Arriva wanted to reduce the overall value of the Welsh bit they could transfer out some of the newer vehicles (Deckers in Wrexham for example) however the losers would be the local passengers.

In Cannock D&G will have agreed what they were getting and it's likely that this will factor into their plans to change things (i.e. they can appear to be making a big improvement by splashing a bit of paint around and bringing in a few mid life or new vehicles to improve the image). This is what's happened several times with ex First depots (Plymouth, Scottish Borders and Bolton for example).

Exactly this.

For sale of ANY operation, the assets are as agreed between the seller and the buyer. As we've seen with various divestments recently...

  • First selling Bolton depot to Rotala - the depot freehold was sold and the operations. However, the fleet was not sold and was instead subject to a phased loan where Rotala retained the fleet on loan but ownership was retained by First and, as they went through the phases, that fleet has been returned to First for redeployment
  • First selling Manchester depot to Go Ahead - the operation including fleet and depot transferred
  • Arriva selling Burton (and Cannock) - filled the depot with older fleet ready for disposal probably as Midland Classic/D&G didn't want to pay the book value for the vehicles/Arriva didn't want to take the financial hit and/or they want the freedom to have their preferred vehcle types
There's many ways to structure a divestment!
Ok that makes sense :)
 

stan68

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Who would want to buy Arriva Buses Wales in its current state? Even if they did achieve a sale, Arriva would probably do what they did in Cannock and send the newer buses away, probably to Liverpool in this case, and in return get ancient Cadets and Solos.
If the Welsh Government did a tendering process like they did for the railways as they have recently taken it over (TfW), there would be a decent strategy in place to run the routes that the major companies no longer see as viable.
 

carlberry

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If the Welsh Government did a tendering process like they did for the railways as they have recently taken it over (TfW), there would be a decent strategy in place to run the routes that the major companies no longer see as viable.
The Welsh Government can already do that if it wants, it would save the local councils doing it. However their strategy on transport cant really be called decent!

If they were really that interested they could put in a bid for Arriva Wales itself, I suspect DB would accept any price that made a dent in their debt pile!
 

cnjb8

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If the Welsh Government did a tendering process like they did for the railways as they have recently taken it over (TfW), there would be a decent strategy in place to run the routes that the major companies no longer see as viable.
But doing that is tough when evidently passengers have deserted Arrivas poor Wales services
 

carlberry

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But doing that is tough when evidently passengers have deserted Arrivas poor Wales services
Whilst Arriva wont have helped the general decline in passengers, in North Wales it has to be remembered that Arriva is one of the few companies that have a stable network. The area has seen several large and medium size operators close down at very short notice, often for very dubious reasons, with Arriva often being the council's first call to to cover the gaps. I suspect more passengers have been lost through the resultant instability over the last few years than Arriva's lack of interest.
 

Robertj21a

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Whilst Arriva wont have helped the general decline in passengers, in North Wales it has to be remembered that Arriva is one of the few companies that have a stable network. The area has seen several large and medium size operators close down at very short notice, often for very dubious reasons, with Arriva often being the council's first call to to cover the gaps. I suspect more passengers have been lost through the resultant instability over the last few years than Arriva's lack of interest.
Agreed. I'm not so convinced by any 'Arriva poor service in N Wales' argument given that, in my experience, they're actually not that bad at all.
 

TheSel

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Not a definitive response by any means, but Gwynedd County Council have now published this 'Christmas update'

https://www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru/en/R...arking,-roads-and-travel/Bysus-dolig-2020.pdf

It's interesting that there is no reference to ANY Pwllheli - Porthmadog - Blaenau Ffestiniog service being affected over the holiday period.

Does this mean that whatever service level is to be provided will not be affected by Christmas / New Year's arrangements, or does it mean that there won't even be any [normal] service to be affected?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Agreed. I'm not so convinced by any 'Arriva poor service in N Wales' argument given that, in my experience, they're actually not that bad at all.

Thirded. Been 2/3 years since I've been there so don't know if it's declined noticeably in that time.

In terms of service provision, there's been a bit of a reduction in some areas but nothing too spectacular that springs to mind since they vacated Aber, Dolgellau and Mach.

The fleet isn't too bad on the core routes with various Daf DB300s, Daf Pulsars, and e400s showing the creditable fleet investment from 2012-2015. Aside from the e400mmc at Wrexham, they've not spent much on new fleet but arguably, you can say they didn't need to. With some ageing Cadets, they are probably in the area of needing to spend some money soon though.

I don't see how pulling out of Pwllheli where they had 2/3 of a route and a college run can equate to something greater.
 

Bwsbro

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Not a definitive response by any means, but Gwynedd County Council have now published this 'Christmas update'

https://www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru/en/R...arking,-roads-and-travel/Bysus-dolig-2020.pdf

It's interesting that there is no reference to ANY Pwllheli - Porthmadog - Blaenau Ffestiniog service being affected over the holiday period.

Does this mean that whatever service level is to be provided will not be affected by Christmas / New Year's arrangements, or does it mean that there won't even be any [normal] service to be affected?
The Gwynedd Council temporary tender is for the current COVID 19 timetable.

LLoyds Coaches have only recently been awarded the tender following the original winner refusing the tender award. At present the tender is still in a 10 day holding.

The temporary timetable shouldn’t be affected by xmas service reductions however I’m sure Lloyds would notify as soon as possible once the contract is signed
 

cnjb8

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Whilst Arriva wont have helped the general decline in passengers, in North Wales it has to be remembered that Arriva is one of the few companies that have a stable network. The area has seen several large and medium size operators close down at very short notice, often for very dubious reasons, with Arriva often being the council's first call to to cover the gaps. I suspect more passengers have been lost through the resultant instability over the last few years than Arriva's lack of interest.
That sounds right. I'm not from the area so I was going off what I have read on here
 

TheSel

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The Gwynedd Council temporary tender is for the current COVID 19 timetable.

LLoyds Coaches have only recently been awarded the tender following the original winner refusing the tender award. At present the tender is still in a 10 day holding.

The temporary timetable shouldn’t be affected by xmas service reductions however I’m sure Lloyds would notify as soon as possible once the contract is signed
Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

Info now on Gwynedd County Council's website suggests that the new operator (Lloyds Coaches) will operate virtually all the Blaenau Ffestiniog - Porthmadog workings (all bar one short working by John's Coaches) FROM 9 DECEMBER. Caelloi to operate a generally hourly (but with exceptions) service between Porthmadog and Pwllheli.

The same timetable still shows Arriva on the Sunday Porthmadog - Pwllheli turns.

Link here.
 
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Bwsbro

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Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

Info now on Gwynedd County Council's website suggests that the new operator (Lloyds Coaches) will operate virtually all the Blaenau Ffestiniog - Porthmadog workings (all bar one short working by John's Coaches) FROM 9 DECEMBER. Caelloi to operate a generally hourly (but with exceptions) service between Porthmadog and Pwllheli.

The same timetable still shows Arriva on the Sunday Porthmadog - Pwllheli turns.

Link here.
It is my understanding that Caelloi will operate the Sunday Service. I suspect the council will update on Monday
 

K219UHA

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Arriva operated to Pwllheli for the last time today, the 3 Porthmadog - Pwllheli

3166 CX14 BYC completing the final bow on the Llŷn Peninsula for Arriva Cymru and the direct successor of the onetime Crosville, Crosville Wales operation in this area, one that once boasted a full depot before the smaller and reduced outstation status of later years.

3166 in a dull and raining Pwllheli probably summed up the low key tone https://www.flickr.com/photos/35721472@N08/50714947328

I understand Caelloi are registered to start a 3S replacement from next Sunday, 20th December.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Arriva operated to Pwllheli for the last time today, the 3 Porthmadog - Pwllheli

3166 CX14 BYC completing the final bow on the Llŷn Peninsula for Arriva Cymru and the direct successor of the onetime Crosville, Crosville Wales operation in this area, one that once boasted a full depot before the smaller and reduced outstation status of later years.

3166 in a dull and raining Pwllheli probably summed up the low key tone https://www.flickr.com/photos/35721472@N08/50714947328

I understand Caelloi are registered to start a 3S replacement from next Sunday, 20th December.
Thanks for posting the link to that photo. Not only did Crosville have a substantial depot but it even got new VRs and Olympians in the 1980s!
 
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